Did Adam and Eve have complete dominion of reason over appetite?

[Gorgias]

Psychologically, it is very difficult to extract desire for revenge from desire to punish wrongdoing. Both come from innate human desire for justice. We call it “revenge” when it appears to an observer as unfair or unjustified, but even a judge in a U.S. court of law can carry out what in the mind is essentially revenge. The death penalty, for example, comes from desire for justice, but it is also vengeful. All of it comes from desire for payment.

‘Revenge’ isn’t justice. The two are distinct.

I admit that some view the death penalty as “revenge”, but that’s not what the law is attempting. Rather, it’s an acknowledgement that the criminal cannot be prevented from committing future acts of capital offense, and therefore, the imposition of the death penalty is actually an attempt preemptively to ‘save’ innocents from harm. (At least, that’s the traditional expression of the ‘morality’ of the death penalty. Under Pope Francis, it seems, YMMV.)

In any case, the death penalty doesn’t “extract payment”, even if that’s a common sentiment among victims’ families.

However, believing that God punishes is a projection, even when it is a useful projection.

I don’t find it useful. In fact, I find it counter-productive. For example, it gives rise to the kinds of misunderstandings you’ve been arguing for, in this thread.

Would you treat your own children this way? Harm them in this way?

Let’s discuss the ‘harm’ then. How would you frame it up?

In your experience, have you forgiven someone who has not accepted such forgiveness? If so, if the person has not accepted it, do you go back to holding a grudge?

No. But it’s still not ‘forgiveness’ until accepted.

25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”

There is no mention of the person accepting your forgiveness.

In my experience, this is among the most misinterpreted verse in the Gospels. Most folks don’t even realize they’re misinterpreting it! It’s not that “someone has something against you, so go and seek their forgiveness”, it’s “you have something against them”! In other words, if you’re the one holding a grudge and keeping forgiveness from happening, then for the love of all that’s holy, stop refusing to forgive someone who wants to be forgiven! So, that doesn’t help your case here…

 

[OneSheep]

No, it’s certainly the case that God imposes the consequence (just like parents impose consequences on their children when they mess up). However, the consequence is meant to be medicinal , not punitive . After all, that’s what a good parent does!

Please explain how these things are “medicinal”:

Increased pain in childbearing for all generations
“Cursing the ground”
Banishment from a garden of Eden
Adding “concupiscence”, making it more difficult to have dominion of reason

After all, that’s what a good parent does!

Good parents do not do permanent harm to their children, or banish them from what is good.

do you believe that God simply forgives all people

Absolutely, yes, as stated by Pope Francis

and all go to heaven

This cannot be known. Heaven is a choice.

not on their individual merits but on God’s unilateral grant to all humans?

It is not a matter of merit, for God always forgives. It is a matter of choice.
It is humans who think that heaven should be “merited”, but the parable of the workers in the vineyard turn the “fairness thinking” upside down.

There’s a problem, though: how can you say “God forgives” and in the same breath say “no salvation”?

Salvation comes through reconciliation, which involves participation by the repentant person. I think your confusion about my words begins with thinking that forgiveness is not simply “forgiveness from the heart”, that it is a one-way thing. Reconciliation involves two, forgiveness only one. I’m talking about “forgiveness from the heart” promoted by Jesus.

Most folks don’t even realize they’re misinterpreting it! It’s not that “someone has something against you, so go and seek their forgiveness”, it’s “ you have something against them”

That’s strange. The verse clearly says “if YOU hold anything against anyone”

In other words, if you’re the one holding a grudge and keeping forgiveness from happening, then for the love of all that’s holy, stop refusing to forgive

Yes, this is what it says.

refusing to forgive someone who wants to be forgiven!

It Mark 11:25 doesn’t say that. Jesus forgave people who did not want to be forgiven, they didn’t even think they did anything wrong.

 

[Gorgias]

Please explain how these things are “medicinal”:

Increased pain in childbearing for all generations

Reminder that no sin is victimless – all sins affect all others. Therefore, we are incented against sinning further.

“Cursing the ground”

We are out-of-harmony with creation; this reminds us to work hard to steward creation properly.

Banishment from a garden of Eden

Now, our attention is on salvation, not the garden.

Adding “concupiscence”, making it more difficult to have dominion of reason

We have to actually attempt to avoid sin. It brings it to mind and challenges us to avoid temptation.

Good parents do not do permanent harm to their children

It’s not “permanent harm.” We look forward to salvation, “when every tear will be wiped away.”

, or banish them from what is good.

No? You’ve never taken good things away from your children, as a consequence for bad behavior?

Absolutely, yes, as stated by Pope Francis

No, that’s not what he said.

It is not a matter of merit… It is humans who think that heaven should be “merited”

The Church teaches that we attain heaven through merit. (Not our own merit, mind you, but Christ’s! Still, though… merit.

for God always forgives. It is a matter of choice.

Does God forgive the unrepentant sinner?

the parable of the workers in the vineyard turn the “fairness thinking” upside down.

No… it shows what Paul preaches: it’s not about compensation or wages – it’s about merit freely given by God!

That’s strange. The verse clearly says “if YOU hold anything against anyone”

It is weird, but it’s real. Ask random folks about the verse – see who they think is in need of forgiveness…

Jesus forgave people who did not want to be forgiven, they didn’t even think they did anything wrong.

Then they couldn’t possibly be in a state of mortal sin, now, could they?

 

[Vico]

…

There are a few classes of God forgiven things (at baptism):

• original sin
• guilt of actual sin
• temporal punishments from sin.

To say the God always forgives in time, is not to say that all are forgiven without process.
Definition of forgiveness: the action or process of forgiving or being forgiven.

These are not all forgiven (but by divine law are suffered) when sin occurs after baptism.

Council of Trent:

“But the Lord then principally instituted the Sacrament of Penance, when, being raised from the dead, He breathed upon His disciples saying, ‘Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ By which action so signal, and words so clear the consent of all the Fathers has ever understood that the power of forgiving and retaining sins was communicated to the Apostles, and to their lawful successors for the reconciling of the faithful who have fallen after baptism” (Sess. XIV, i).

Hell is self exclusion and it occurs with final impenitence.

Definition of condemnation: “sentence (someone) to a particular punishment”.

Catechism

183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16).

You wrote: “Not to be critical, but you have still not addressed the question whether “preternatural knowledge” included knowing that eating the fruit would harm their own children. So your statement remains as a simple unfounded assertion until you address my question.”

A. Yes I did. I said that all ramifications are not necessary for that knowledge needed to make a wisest decision.

It is not known that God forgave the unrepentant from the cross who did not have a desire such as a catechumen has.

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “The whole idea of someone being kept in hell who wants to be with God sets a limit upon what God can do …”
A. No, it is a divine law, not a limit placed by mankind on God.

You wrote: ““revenge” or “repay” to mean the painful cleansing of purgatory, then it does not subtract from His Mercy.”
A. Even that of eternal punishment, for that eternal punishment may even be tempered, although not to the point of giving the Beatific Vision.

You wrote: “if God is presented to a person as having attributes that are the opposite of forgiveness and mercy, in degrees of course, then the person is better off rejecting that which does not reflect the Love of God we can know through introspection and prayer.”
A. The Church teaches the truths that God is just and merciful both and that there should properly be fear on eternal punishment – for we cannot morally be presumptuous. Some may see this as hard.

The dogma of the particular judgement teaches us that we cannot be assured of salvation if we die without sanctifying grace, so we should “enter by the narrow gate”.

 

[OneSheep]

Therefore, we are incented against sinning further.

Increased pain in childbearing, cursing the ground, and concupiscence are supposed to be incentives against further sinning?

Dude, has it worked for you?

We have to actually attempt to avoid sin. It brings it to mind and challenges us to avoid temptation.

Wait a minute, concupiscence is the basis for temptation in the first place. God adds temptation so that we can overcome temptation?

It’s not “permanent harm.” We look forward to salvation, “when every tear will be wiped away.”

Subjecting all people to an earthly death leads to suffering, regardless of how you spin it. I am not saying that God wants us to suffer; I am saying that since God does not want us to suffer (even though the capacity to suffer is God-given) he did not impose death upon us, or for some punishing reason withheld immortality.

Would a loving parent motivate their child not to sin by creating a point in which their life will end? Add temptation to their list of human compulsions?

No? You’ve never taken good things away from your children, as a consequence for bad behavior?

Sure I have, but never permanently. I want them to learn the lesson, not separate them from what is good.

No, that’s not what he said.

Did you read the tweet?

The Church teaches that we attain heaven through merit. (Not our own merit, mind you, but Christ’s! Still, though… merit .

Show me the CCC, and we can discuss it…

Does God forgive the unrepentant sinner?

He did, from the cross.

merit freely given

“freely given” precludes merit. Merit is erased from the picture. Do you see that it boils down to a person’s choice to be with God?

Then they couldn’t possibly be in a state of mortal sin, now, could they?

“Mortal sin” is a human rubric. It is certainly inspired, well intended, and very useful, but when it limits God’s forgiveness and mercy, it compromises His image, which is one of unconditional love and forgiveness. It is a useful compromise for the person who is motivated by fear of consequence rather than empathy, and it presents an image of God that is to be respected, but a deeper spirituality, a deeper knowing of His image through relationship within, reveals an God who loves and forgives without limit.

Again, I am talking about forgiveness from the heart.

 

[OneSheep]

A. Yes I did. I said that all ramifications are not necessary for that knowledge needed to make a wisest decision.

Are you saying, then, that a normal human person is not motivated against a decision by knowing that a certain choice they are about to make would harm their children?

183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16)

Are you saying that our God sentences us to hell? If so, that is against the theme of His unconditional love and forgiveness. “Will be condemned” when taking the Gospel as a whole, means “will choose to not be with God”. It becomes an observation, not a sentence.

It is not known that God forgave the unrepentant from the cross who did not have a desire such as a catechumen has.

Jesus said “forgive them”, His mind as one-with-the-Father forgave. To say that it was not all-inclusive is a modification of the words, correct?

His unconditional forgiveness can be known through relationship, through experience.

Have you ever forgiven an unrepentant person, Vico?

 

[Gorgias]

Increased pain in childbearing, cursing the ground, and concupiscence are supposed to be incentives against further sinning?

Dude, has it worked for you?

LOL!

Well, it reminds us of our sinful condition, and – since I hope we all wish to attain to heaven – reminds us not to sin! So, yeah… medicinal!

Wait a minute, concupiscence is the basis for temptation in the first place. God adds temptation so that we can overcome temptation?

No. Concupiscence is the tendency to sin. The “basis for temptation in the first place” wasn’t concupiscence, since Adam and Eve weren’t subject to concupiscence prior to the fall.

Would a loving parent motivate their child not to sin by creating a point in which their life will end?

One who wants folks to realize that the goal isn’t physical life on earth but eternal life in heaven.

Sure I have, but never permanently.

Eternal life wasn’t taken from us permanently, either.

Did you read the tweet?

I did! Did you read the Angelus message on which the Tweet is based? Here it is:

[God] always has patience, patience with us, he understands us, he waits for us, he does not tire of forgiving us if we are able to return to him with a contrite heart.

God forgives if we return to him with a contrite heart. Notice that this is a conditional statement.

 

[OneSheep]

A. No, it is a divine law, not a limit placed by mankind on God.

So God decided, “I love without limit my children, but I will never go and get a person who wants me once they have chosen to be away from me, I will disregard their change of heart”? Is this what you mean by “divine law”?

that there should properly be fear on eternal punishment

Matthew 6:

25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Are you saying that God wants us to worry about going to hell, and not worry about everything else? Is such worry an aspect of the “abundant life” he wants for us? The “eternal life” that begins today? The “joy” that we are to have in being followers?

Does the worry help you to behave, or does empathy itself supplant the need for such worry?

 

[hergratefulchild]

So God decided, “I love without limit my children, but I will never go and get a person who wants me once they have chosen to be away from me, I will disregard their change of heart”? Is this what you mean by “divine law”?

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

“Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

… If a heart chooses to change back and acknowledge God the "punishment’ is not etetnal

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “Are you saying, then, that a normal human person is not motivated against a decision by knowing that a certain choice they are about to make would harm their children?”
A. I am not commenting on motivation but knowledge of the moral character of a thought, act, or omission. Think about it, Adam and Eve knew what God told them about death, which certainly would have an effect on children.

You wrote: “To say that it was not all-inclusive is a modification of the words, correct?”
A. No.

You wrote: “Are you saying that our God sentences us to hell?”
Catechism

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.622

 

[Vico]

…

You wrote: “So God decided, “I love without limit my children, but I will never go and get a person who wants me once they have chosen to be away from me, I will disregard their change of heart”? Is this what you mean by “divine law”?”
A. God gives actual graces for conversion. Three interesting dogmas are:

• a) God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufliciens) for tile observation of the Divine Commandments. (De fide.)
• b) God gives all the faithful who are sinners sufficient grace (gratia saltem remote sufficiens) for conversion. (Sent. communis.)
• c) God gives all innocent unbelievers (infideles negativi) sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.)
  Ref: Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott, pp. 240-1.

You wrote: “Does the worry help you to behave, or does empathy itself supplant the need for such worry?”
A. You are on a tangent since I said Filial or chaste fear which is not the same as worry.

 

[OneSheep]

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

That is so beautiful, and so demonstrates His image. Thank you for bringing it forth.

“Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

Now, do you see how this puts anxiety into the hearts of followers? This “disowning” by Jesus can only be a felt thing, a projected thing, when we disown Jesus before others, we will feel the guilt of such disownment, our consciences will punish us for the violation.

But does He actually disown us, like we humans do to one another? This goes against the theme of His unconditional love and forgiveness, so there is something amiss, a translation error, a misunderstanding, something is missing.

The Linns say, “whenever you read something in scripture that makes God sound less loving than the person who loves you most, something is amiss.”

… If a heart chooses to change back and acknowledge God the "punishment’ is not etetnal

Now THAT sounds like our loving Abba. Thanks for your words!

 

[OneSheep]

No. Concupiscence is the tendency to sin. …

It still defies reason and mercy that a parent would discipline a child by making it harder for children to avoid temptation. What is it about this part of the interpretation that is meaningful to take literally? Loving parents don’t do this, it is against the objective of having your own children avoid harm and discord.

One who wants folks to realize that the goal isn’t physical life on earth but eternal life in heaven .

But this goes against the Gospel. Jesus was not so concerned about the afterlife, he was concerned about the way people live here and now, the Kingdom on Earth.

Eternal life wasn’t taken from us permanently, either.

You have a point, but it doesn’t make taking life away any more charitable, especially concerning suffering. Do you realize that there is a distinction to be made between being an apologist for faith, and being an apologist for Genesis 3? Jesus comes and turns over the cruel image of God depicted in Genesis 3, completely changes the dynamic. While Gen 3 has some usefulness for a person of developing empathy, the Gospel calls us to move beyond the image.

I did! Did you read the Angelus message on which the Tweet is based? Here it is:

Very cool, and thank you. Now I am seeing the actual progression of his final statement, the tweet that has no qualifications/conditions:

I looked at her, and I said, “Grandmother” — because in our country that is how we address the elderly — do you want to make your confession?”.
“Yes”, she said to me.
“But if you have not sinned…”.
And she said to me: “We all have sins…”.
“But perhaps the Lord does not forgive them”.
“The Lord forgives all things”, she said to me with conviction.
“But how do you know, Madam?”.
“If the Lord did not forgive everything, the world would not exist”.
I felt an urge to ask her: “Tell me, Madam, did you study at the Gregorian [University]?”, because that is the wisdom which the Holy Spirit gives: inner wisdom focused on God’s mercy. Let us not forget this word: God never ever tires of forgiving us! “Well, Father what is the problem?”. Well, the problem is that we ourselves tire, we do not want to ask, we grow weary of asking for forgiveness. He never tires of forgiving, but at times we get tired of asking for forgiveness.

Let us never tire, let us never tire! He is the loving Father who always pardons, who has that heart of mercy for us all.

He realizes that it is us that tire of asking for forgiveness, not God who tires of forgiving. It is only one small step to realize that God is not going to withhold forgiveness from those who tire of asking.

We can know that God always forgives us by following what Jesus did from the cross, forgiving everyone regardless of their state of contrition.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Vico!

You wrote: “Are you saying, then, that a normal human person is not motivated against a decision by knowing that a certain choice they are about to make would harm their children?”
A. I am not commenting on motivation but knowledge of the moral character of a thought, act, or omission. Think about it, Adam and Eve knew what God told them about death, which certainly would have an effect on children.

Okay, let’s think about it, and I appreciate your answer above. Since their nature was “preternatural”, then, can we assume that the couple knew that they would have children and grandchildren, and knew that those children would be harmed, and had this in mind at the moment of their choice? After all, one would have to distinguish “preternatural” from the risky behavior of teenagers who have no thinking at all of having children and grandchildren, the wisdom that comes from experience. Did Adam and Eve have this advantage of wisdom over the common teenager?

Assumption valid?

You wrote: “To say that it was not all-inclusive is a modification of the words, correct?”
A. No.

This is your assertion, but indeed it is.

34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[a] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Would you really go so far as to condition His prayer to the Father? The intent of His prayer? He does not distinguish, Vico. "Them"is all of them, all of them who need forgiveness. This is a very, very important verse in the Gospel, does it make it more meaningful to you to modify it?

St. Stephen also forgave those who stoned him to death.

You wrote: “Are you saying that our God sentences us to hell?”
Catechism

1037

There is nothing in 1037 that says that God sentences people to hell. Turning away from God is the mortal sin, the sin of wanting to be away from God. Do you have an image of an infinitely loving Father who judges His own children, banishing them from HImself? Is this image helpful to you?

Look carefully at this:

the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”

He wants all to repent from their turning from Him. Would God ever allow a person to perish who does not genuinely choose to be away from Him? And then, when do people genuinely make this choice? Even in the story of Adam and Eve, they were not saying “I choose to be away from God”. For example, any conclusion of “I want to eat this fruit” means “I want to be away from God” is a negative interpretation of their act. Such judgment does not reflect the insight of omniscience and benevolence, it reflects suspicion and negative outlook, a lack of charity.

Would a loving parent interpret the defiance of their teenager to mean that the teen does not want to be with their parents?

 

[OneSheep]

You wrote: “Does the worry help you to behave, or does empathy itself supplant the need for such worry?”
A. You are on a tangent since I said Filial or chaste fear which is not the same as worry.

They are indistinguishable. It is all anxiety. If the image of God is such that God forgives conditionally, then there is an anxiety that one never meets the condition. I only knew that God forgives without condition, in my experience, by forgiving from my heart everyone I held anything against, without condition. When I forgave this way, I knew that God forgave me this way, at the very least, for His mercy far surpasses my own.

Scrupulosity is a symptom of the anxiety, Vico.

I have absolutely no worry about His forgiveness. None.

 

[Gorgias]

It still defies reason and mercy that a parent would discipline a child by making it harder for children to avoid temptation. What is it about this part of the interpretation that is meaningful to take literally?

This is a good point! If we believe what the Church teaches – that is, that this narrative uses figurative language – then we recognize that, while there were consequences of the first sin of our first human parents, they nevertheless may not literally be what’s written on the page. The writer used a common storytelling technique here, often utilized in ‘genesis’ stories, to tie common aspects of everyday life to an event in pre-history.

So, if that’s our take (and I think it’s a valuable one), then we’re left with one conclusion: what was lost were the preternatural gifts. And that’s clearly ‘consequence’, not ‘punishment’.

Jesus was not so concerned about the afterlife, he was concerned about the way people live here and now, the Kingdom on Earth.

Umm… whaaaaaa?

• “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
• "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? "

I think it’s exactly the opposite – Jesus didn’t come to teach us how to live a good life on earth, but rather, how to live well in order to have eternal life in heaven.

It is only one small step to realize that God is not going to withhold forgiveness from those who tire of asking.

Unfortunately, that “small step” would be a giant mis-step.

We can know that God always forgives us by following what Jesus did from the cross, forgiving everyone regardless of their state of contrition.

No, he didn’t. He asked God to forgive them – He did not. And, who do you think the ‘they’ are, here? I’ve always taken it to mean the Romans who killed him.

 

[hergratefulchild]

But does He actually disown us, like we humans do to one another? This goes against the theme of His unconditional love and forgiveness, so there is something amiss, a translation error, a misunderstanding, something is missing.

Actually, nothing is a amiss, in error or misunderstanding:

St James, Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has
stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

St Paul, An Athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.

St Luke, Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

St Matthew, His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’

St John, Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Genesis, The blessings of your father are mighty beyond the blessings of my parents, up to the bounties of the everlasting hills. May they be on the head of Joseph, and on the brow of him who was set apart from his brothers.

 

[OneSheep]

St James, Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has
stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

St Paul, An Athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.

St Luke, Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

St Matthew, His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’

St John, Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Note: all of these fit the theme, and do not exclude, his unconditional love and forgiveness.

 

[OneSheep]

This is a good point! If we believe what the Church teaches – that is, that this narrative uses figurative language – then we recognize that, while there were consequences of the first sin of our first human parents, they nevertheless may not literally be what’s written on the page. The writer used a common storytelling technique here, often utilized in ‘genesis’ stories, to tie common aspects of everyday life to an event in pre-history.

Okay, that works.

So, if that’s our take (and I think it’s a valuable one), then we’re left with one conclusion: what was lost were the preternatural gifts. And that’s clearly ‘consequence’, not ‘punishment’.

This also can be related to in terms of our own lives. When we enter adulthood, we take on new urges, i.e. sexual appetite, that seems to defeat our own innocence, depending on how one feels about these appetites. So, the concept of a “fall” makes sense, on a personal basis.

Also, if one senses that some aspect of his own humanity somehow devalues what it means to be human, that is, there is an aspect of our nature that a person resents, this also makes sense. It seems to the individual that if he or she was made in God’s image, something went wrong after creation.

On the other hand, if the person has come to see development, for example, as following a trend of i.e. chaos to order, unawareness to awareness, without any negative outlook on any condition at any time of human evolution, then the above does not apply to the person, and they may see no reason for an anthropology that involves a “fall”.

Can we accept the spirituality of those who come from each of these positions? (not that it represents all position, not by a long shot). I certainly can. You?