Did Adam and Eve have complete dominion of reason over appetite?

[OneSheep]

God does not disown us

This statement indicates that you know God through experience and prayer, that you know His love and forgiveness is infinite!

we disown him

This comes from a place of self-blame, right? I’m not putting down self-blame, because self-blame motivates us to behave in many ways that are good. What I am saying is that there is a time when we are ready to let go of self-blame and find a deeper truth about our own humanity, the beauty of who we are.

For example, have you ever intended to disown God?

As a Father of a family, would it be right for him to accept the behaviour (note I am talking about behaviour and not the person) of a rebelious child

Well, the prodigal son’s father did not necessarily “accept” his younger’s behavior, I think not. What he did do was forgive, from his heart, long before the child turned back to him.

risk his other children getting the idea that how one behaves is not important to live life according to the Holy Spirit.

I see, again, that your statement is coming from a place of “God protects us”, which you must know from your own experience of Love.
The way I see it, before He created us, God already knew all the “risky” behaviors each and every one of us would ever do. He knew this long before any of us even knew life, but had the will to lovingly create each one of us anyway, despite such knowing. And while our own God-given consciences tell us that it is not right to accept people who do bad things, and the story of God in Genesis 3 begins with that image, the Gospel turns this image upside-down.

Surely, given the Genesis 3 image, Jesus could have said, “Father, condemn these people who are crucifying me, let’s not risk others making choices that go against the life we should follow, a life in line with the Spirit.” But no, it was the Spirit instead that was shown to be One of forgiveness, an unconditional forgiveness. Life “according to the Holy Spirit” as I know it begins with mercy, and forgiveness is greatest act of mercy, if not one of the greatest.

 

[OneSheep]

But I have been reading up on the Sumerian texts (and there is tons of writings) and am finding that the ‘story’ of creation of man and being excluded from the garden of eden seems to make a little more sense.
Being as the Sumerian texts were written before Genesis’ and by a different culture of people who knew God/gods very differently from the Jews.

HI Simpleas,

Even if the story was “borrowed” from the Sumerians, though, it doesn’t mean that God did not speak to the Israelites through the story; they truly found the story inspired. The story reflects the God we can know according to the workings of our conscience, a God who accepts us when we obey, and condemns us when we do not. Do we not all feel a bit “up” when we defy our appetite and follow our conscience? Do we not all feel down when we violate our own conscience and give into temptation? These feelings are hard-wired into us, the neurotransmission has been scientifically verified. So of course, by our own nature we are going to project that God behaves exactly the way our conscience does. The Gospel turns this image around, but the original story comes from a “good place”.

The tribal leadership not only found that the story made sense, but it was a powerful means of instilling in tribe members the value of cooperation.

… not laughing you out of here…

 

[OneSheep]

Good morning, Vico

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. … In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

CCC1791 goes without saying. ALL of our behaviors and ignorance are our own responsibility, that is, we are to “be able to respond” for them. However, “culpable” is going to depend on the state of mind and mercy in the observer. If we go to the root of the word “culpable” then we can find that it means “worthy of blame”. Do you see how the Gospel calls us not to blame, but to forgive? So while we can find, impute everyone responsible, that is answerable for their acts, it does not mean that we find them blameworthy or do indeed blame them.

A. What God can do and what God chooses to do are different.

Are you saying that God chooses to blame, rather than forgive, even though His will is forgiveness?

Please remember that the statement you made above is still connected to my original question, which was this:

would you still say that God did not forgive the people from His heart ? Would He leave a single one out? Would He hold onto “offense” or “grudge” or “anger” toward a single one of them?

When culpable for a grave matter, then there must be reparation.

It makes sense that when people are lacking in any kind of ignorance that leads to misbehavior (doing evil), regardless of “gravity”, that our merciful Father carry out some kind of reparation, some special effort to make the individual aware of his sin. All sin is rooted in untruth.

But surely you are not referring to an infinite banishment as a “reparation”, right? As the CCC says, expiation is to be medicinal.

And again, culpable means “worthy of blame”, that is the root of the word. Does God want us to blame, or does He want us to forgive? Does God blame, or does He forgive? Do you see the huge contrast between Genesis 3 and the Gospel of Luke?

God is both just and merciful, so that includes the “book of laws” and is not merely.

This seems to give an “equal footing” to justice, and begs the question as to the purpose of justice itself. What is the purpose of justice?

 

[OneSheep]

You wrote: “Would a loving parent interpret any defiance on the part of a teen to be saying “I don’t want to be with my parents?””
A. It may actually mean that.

Well you are right, it may mean that; but without actually knowing what the child is thinking, the thought of “he is defying my rule, therefore he must want to be away from me” is simply uncharitable.

However, let’s assume the very rare instance that the child actually says and believes “I am doing this defiance as a clear signal that I want to be away from you.” Let’s look a little deeper into the loving parents’ response. Does the loving parent see that their own child, wanting to be away from him or her, interpret that the child is doing so maliciously, for some bad intent (leading to parental blame of the child), or does this parent see that the child wants something good, but is blind or lacking awareness in some way (leading to parental forgiveness of the child from the heart)?

And which position, in the final analysis, is the position of truth? The thinking that leads to blame, or the thinking that leads to understanding and forgiveness?

I hoped you were going to get to these:

Now, back again to the topic:

Are you saying that a person cannot make a wiser choice by knowing the probable outcomes of his choice, having a wisdom of experience?

…

Would God have banished the pair from the Garden, caused harm upon their children and grandchildren, (and all generations) if the couple had made the bad choice but when doing so did not know they would have children and grandchildren, did not know that these people would be harmed, and did not have these things in mind at the moment of their choice?

 

[OneSheep]

Here’s question for both you and Gorgias:

Are you able to make the distinction between forgiveness from the heart, and acquittal?

Forgiveness from the heart does not preclude expiation, and certainly not reparation. Forgiveness from the heart changes the very nature of expiation from “carrying out justice for its own sake” to “carrying out justice with mercy as its objective”.

 

[simpleas]

The tribal leadership not only found that the story made sense, but it was a powerful means of instilling in tribe members the value of cooperation.

Yes, but it also helped keep people ‘dumbed down’ to a certain degree, and keeps the idea that man is to blame for the human condition, never the creator.
Sumerian texts don’t blame the human I don’t think, I’ll have to check that again to be sure.

not laughing you out of here…

Thanks!

 

[OneSheep]

Yes, but it also helped keep people ‘dumbed down’ to a certain degree, and keeps the idea that man is to blame for the human condition, never the creator.

Not sure about the “dumbed down” part, but yes, it does keep the idea that man is to be kept in a place of blame. Despite the Gospel, people still uphold the story as keeping man in a position of blameworthiness, negative affect.

However, to me, this is a price paid for the overall benefit of cooperation. Discord, disunity, schism are ultimately spell demise for a tribe, as its land and resources are preyed upon by neighboring tribes. It takes unity and cooperation to protect your tribal resources.

So, a bit of blame for the sake of survival of the tribe? To me, its a price worth paying, but please let no reader assume that I am saying that manipulation was the malicious goal of early tribal leaders. I am certain that they saw God as a projection of conscience itself, and that disobedience itself was unconscionable. They saw the story as right, and that it upheld a premise that would aid in survival of the tribe. All well-intended!

And I know that you are not implying that anyone, even God, is to “blame” for the human condition, because blame itself, the negative feeling, is for the purpose of communicating non-acceptance, which has the purpose of correcting bad behavior. We can replace blame with gratitude, which is hard when we suffer, but seeing all the positives for what they are is such a more holy and truthful place than one of blaming.

 

[hergratefulchild]

Well, the prodigal son’s father did not necessarily “accept” his younger’s behavior, I think not. What he did do was forgive, from his heart, long before the child turned back to him.

Sorry to correct here, but it was only once the child had a change of heart that the father “from a long way off” ran to his chld to embrace him, he, the father was waiting for the childs return.

 

[hergratefulchild]

Surely, given the Genesis 3 image, Jesus could have said, “Father, condemn these people who are crucifying me, let’s not risk others making choices that go against the life we should follow, a life in line with the Spirit.” But no, it was the Spirit instead that was shown to be One of forgiveness, an unconditional forgiveness. Life “according to the Holy Spirit” as I know it begins with mercy, and forgiveness is greatest act of mercy, if not one of the greatest.

Again here, another slight but important correction. Jesus said on the cross “forgive them Father for they do not know what they are doing”. This is forgiveness for lack of knowledge, if these had the knowledge of the offence God may well have punished them. The Spirit works in all human souls and will reveal the truth to all mankind in time and we cannot deny the clear expectation of judgement by God at the end of times, possibly after the earthly death of each individual. God cannot love the rightous in the same way as the unrightous… are you asserting that God’s love goes beyond our sins and no matter our acts in the earthly life he will accept us for who we are?

 

[OneSheep]

Sorry to correct here, but it was only once the child had a change of heart that the father “from a long way off” ran to his chld to embrace him, he, the father was waiting for the childs return.

The father forgave the previous insult. The son could have been coming back to get more money, but the father had already forgiven, thus the rush to greet him:

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Indeed, the Lord’s prayer itself and Mark 11:25 call for us to forgive those who trespass without any requirement or pre-condition.

Jesus said on the cross “forgive them Father for they do not know what they are doing”. This is forgiveness for lack of knowledge, if these had the knowledge of the offence God may well have punished them.

If they had full knowledge of the offense, would they have committed the act in the first place? Try for a moment to put yourself in the mindset of the crowd. If they had more information, they simply would not have called for His death.

For me, it is helpful to look at my own past sins. What was it that I did not have in mind when I committed the sin, such that if I had this particular thing in mind, I would not have committed it? Very often it has to do with being blind to the humanity of the person being hurt, it is a blindness that comes from anger, want, desire to punish injustice, etc.

if these had the knowledge of the offence God may well have punished them.

We don’t know whether or not the people were punished, we only know that they were forgiven. You might want to check the question on post 565.

God cannot love the rightous in the same way as the unrightous…

He cannot? I don’t get the sense that God loved me any less when I did not believe in Him. You?

are you asserting that God’s love goes beyond our sins and no matter our acts in the earthly life he will accept us for who we are?

Yes, but that does not mean that we won’t get a very vigorous rehab.

God’s love is greater than anything we can imagine, reaching beyond even the worst sins we find within us, he said.

“His is an infinite love, one that knows no bounds,” he reflected. “The words of the Apostle are a reassuring confirmation that our hearts should trust, always and unhesitatingly, in the Father’s love: ‘No matter what our hearts may charge us with, God is greater than our hearts’ (1 Jn. 3:20).”

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God accepts us for who we are right now, all of us. He sees that our bad behaviors are made possible by not knowing what we are doing, from being ignorant at many levels. He knew that we would do all these things before He even created us.

None of this means that God accepts sin, it means He understands our sin in light of our lack of awareness.

 

[hergratefulchild]

Indeed, the Lord’s prayer itself and Mark 11:25 call for us to forgive those who trespass without any requirement or pre-condition.

Reconcilliation has two elements: forgiveness and repentance. Jesus asks us to forgive so that repentance can come to complete the reconcilliation.

 

[hergratefulchild]

None of this means that God accepts sin , it means He understands our sin in light of our lack of awareness.

how would you explain the requirements for Heaven, on faith alone? faith in God will always draw us to purify ourselves of sin, does it not?

 

[OneSheep]

Reconcilliation has two elements: forgiveness and repentance. Jesus asks us to forgive so that repentance can come to complete the reconcilliation.

Yes! Now you are talking about reconciliation, a true renewal of relationship. And yes, without repentance on our part, we cannot know relationship with Him, not at a deeper level anyway. Do you see how forgiveness from the heart precedes reconciliation?

how would you explain the requirements for Heaven, on faith alone? faith in God will always draw us to purify ourselves of sin, does it not?

Requirements? In my observation, what is required is choice, a choice to be with God. Not sure that could be seen as a “requirement”. For my own children, they only have to choose to be with me, and my arms are open. There is no “requirement” on my part. This is the same for my own parents. Do you have more of an experience of “requirement”?

 

[hergratefulchild]

o you have more of an experience of “requirement”?

We have to factor in the presence of hell and purgatory, do we not?

 

[OneSheep]

We have to factor in the presence of hell and purgatory, do we not?

Hmmm. Did you see my use of the word “experience”? Are hell and purgatory part of your experience of “requirement”?

Not saying that there isn’t a hell or purgatory, of course…

 

[hergratefulchild]

mmm. Did you see my use of the word “experience”? Are hell and purgatory part of your experience of “requirement

I thought it was officially taught from scripture the presence of hell and purgatory?

 

[OneSheep]

I thought it was officially taught from scripture the presence of hell and purgatory?

Yes, of course. hell is for those who choose not to be with God, and purgatory is for those who need a bit of prep, and I am sure to need some purging. I’m not thinking that God forces a person in either place. It could be that purgatory itself is a journey, chosen by the sinner when God explains why it has to be there.

I’m thinking I’m with you that there has to be some kind of preparation, but not a forced one. A preparation fully chosen by the sinner. There are many people who have gone through NDE with an immediate experience of heaven, but there is some gentle correction going on. All we know is His love, that’s the starting point.

Some truly experience purgatory on Earth, we learn of the hurt we have caused. And can anyone doubt that the drug addict is experiencing hell?

 

[hergratefulchild]

preparation

Our own soul desires communion with God, purgatory is for those needing purification. I have experienced in a dream a place which after reflection was heaven but it was a shock to me and I am still working through my own unworthyness

 

[OneSheep]

Our own soul desires communion with God, purgatory is for those needing purification. I have experienced in a dream a place which after reflection was heaven but it was a shock to me and I am still working through my own unworthyness

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

It’s hard to just believe what we read, isn’t it? But look what you are doing, “working through it”. God is blessing you through your “working through it”, and you inspire others with this endeavor.

Have you heard about out natural “negativity bias”? That our minds tend to see and look for the worst?

 

[simpleas]

So, a bit of blame for the sake of survival of the tribe? To me, its a price worth paying, but please let no reader assume that I am saying that manipulation was the malicious goal of early tribal leaders.

No, but this reads to me that another’s live is not as valuable as the ones that follow all the rules. I know this probably isn’t what you meant, and of course Jesus taught that every human was as valuable to him, sinner or not.

The dumbed down was me thinking that people are given something to believe and that they shouldn’t go further in their seeking, this happened for thousands of years, but we are now at a point in history where we can find things out for ourselves and are not as controlled by religions as in the past.