Do you think that we inclined to find them culpable (worthy of blame) because we find their disobedience unconscionable? Do you have a sense that they have violated mankind, and are worthy of punishment, the punishment that they received?
They intended to have their children subject to increased pain and have the human race be subject to suffering?
I don’t follow your point. If one does evil then an evil outcome is to be expected. Is that what you mean by “mechanical”? Also, remember, the Lord did not just banish Adam. Before banishing, He also contemplated Adam’s salvation in the prior verse as God always brings good out of evil.
I think we need to evolve and learn more. We are still in tribe mentality, nationality, etc.
So why they they were punished? They didn’t know the truth.
So why they they were punished? They didn’t know the truth.
That’s a circular argument, and it gives rise to ‘victim’ mentality (“Oh, woe is me! I was powerless against that chocolate cake, and therefore I ate the whole thing! I’m not a glutton, I’m a victim!!!”
)We are able to use our free will to choose what is good or choose what is evil. Both are within our grasp.
Catholic theology would assert that this inclination is damaged by the effects of sin.
@OneSheep, this is where I was going to go, but @Wesrock beat me to the punch…
I am not angry with Adam and Eve, which is what you seem to be implying. They forfeited the supernatural gifts and their justification by putting themselves at disunion with God, and so did not pass those on. Punishment is due when people do evil, yes, but that’s true of me as well and not something I’m angry with Adam and Eve about. It’s general Catholic teaching that Adam and Eve went on to live righteous lives afterwards, insofar as that word can be applied to people with a wounded nature, and are now in heaven.Wesrock:
Do you think that we inclined to find them culpable (worthy of blame) because we find their disobedience unconscionable? Do you have a sense that they have violated mankind, and are worthy of punishment, the punishment that they received?
They intended to break their union with God. They intended to disobey God.Wesrock:
They intended to have their children subject to increased pain and have the human race be subject to suffering?
That’s not what was meant by mechanical, which was simply to refer to a conception of nature where we’re essentially just composed of mechanical parts, which plays into a lot of reductionist philosophy. Or which treats us as being designed like a chair, house, computer, or engine.o_mlly:
I hope you see the irony, here. Wesrock is saying that humans are not mechanical, that we had complete free will to not eat of the tree.
Using your analogy, God’s banishment of Adam and Eve was as mechanical as a person getting hit in the street.
Choosing not to believe what you know to be true is not due to a lack of truth. It is due to a lack of will to conform yourself to the truth. People often decide that the rules for everyone else don’t apply to them, that somehow reality is different for them. This isn’t due to ignorance! It is due to arrogance. Justice does not require that we be preserved from the consequences of our own arrogance.
No, free will just allow us to do wrong since we are rational being and inclined to do right.
That doesn’t resolve the problem of origin of evil.
They didn’t choose not to believe. They were lied.
They got one version from God and one version from elsewhere. They chose to depart from the version they knew with 100% certainty was given by God, they decided that it was God who lied to them, not the snake who was saying more what they wanted to hear, and followed the version from elsewhere. This is different, for instance, than if the snake had convinced them that his voice was actually the voice of God and that God’s law had changed. That’s not what happened. They still knew God’s law had not changed.
They were convinced.
They wouldn’t do otherwise if they didn’t doubt. In fact they might even disbelieved God.