Did Adam and Eve know Good and Evil before they ate the fruit?

[Khalfan]

Uh,… Satan said that in that passage, dude.

Nice trick leaving your…, the speaker of this passage, out of the quote.

Out of Quote?? I don’t have make agree on that my dear, because God did it already in your scripture, in Gen 3:22.

Eve and Adam, in Gen3:22, had “become like ONE OF US” (God), in that they now KNEW (had experience of) good and evil, which they “realized” (knew) when they proved to themselves and to God that they had disobeyed Him by eating of the fruit.

In other words, they were suddenly aware that they had transgressed, which was the only “knowledge” contained in the fruit.

You only KNOW evil by DOING evil, which they hadn’t DONE until AFTER they had eaten of the fruit.

The fruit itself was simply a SIGNAL they they had willed to disobey God. The fruit itself contained NOTHING.

Now you are misinterpreting the verse. You miss 2 important points there. Let me underline what is that.

Ge:3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

1. If the knowledge was the experience of evil, you will have to agree that God also must have experienced good and evil, since God said ‘man is become as one of us, to know good and evil’. Specially, your logic ‘You only KNOW evil by DOING evil’, doesn’t work with God at all. If the scripture is true, Adam and Eve gained a certain knowledge from the fruit which God had before, and it cannot be any experiential knowledge of good or evil.
2. Is n’t it very clear, to live for ever, they had to eat it?

I’m not going to argue with someone who is utterly impervious to simple english.

I think you got my point.

They ONLY experienced good before eating of the fruit. That’s the point.

They knew, before the eating, that evil was something, which they hadn’t experienced yet, that was not-good.

They FULLY knew (experienced) evil when they disobeyed God, and they FULLY knew (experienced) good, in contrast, because now they had a REAL EXPERIENCE of evil to contrast with good.

Do you say, God also EXPERIECED Evil, to know it fully?

 

[Khalfan]

…continued from above:

I don’t see a question in your response, so I won’t answer it.

Consider your allegation,

*God doesn’t want SOME and not want others. You seem to imply that your god specifically “created” evil so that he would have the “pleasure” of having some to be his slaves, and some to sadistically feed into the fires of hell.

That god is not God.*

and my answer to that,

Who saying this to whom? Bible says People of Israel are the chosen people of God. How about others? Even today, Jews all over the world want die in Israel –the Holy land.

I hope you have a question to answer.

If you don’t believe in original sin, that’s fine. You don’t have to.

Through the fall, physical death came into the world, for man.

Because of the disobedience of Eve and Adam death has been a physical necessity for mankind.

Dear brother, the death said was spiritual.

Ge:2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They were supposed to die the day they eat, like poisoned.

Physical death has nothing to do with that. Today, every Tom, **** and Harry knows why we die. Don’t be so blind religious. A bit knowledge of science will help you a lot.

Yes,… and Eve and Adam died (physically) because they disobeyed God, and because they died, we all, their progeny, die physically.

I don’t know how to make it up these things to you, when you are so blind. Adam and Eve were supposed to die physically, even if they didn’t sin. You don’t have to hate science because you religious. If there is something that dosen’t match with established science, that is not the problem of science, but the way you understand your religion. Because ultimately, God is the creator of science as well.

I think you should learn a bit about how Quran and Islam deals with science.

All people who died before Christ ended up in “Sheol” (the big weird holding area), unless God thought otherwise, and when Christ descended to there He essentially “abolished” “Sheol”, and did the specific judgement of each person who had died.

That must have been a wild couple of days…!

It is just a belief my dear. It may be or it may not be. You can’t prove it, unless and until you prove the source of that idea.

 

[dessert]

Out of Quote?? I don’t have make agree on that my dear, because God did it already in your scripture, in Gen 3:22.

Now you are misinterpreting the verse. You miss 2 important points there. Let me underline what is that.

Ge:3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

1. If the knowledge was the experience of evil, you will have to agree that God also must have experienced good and evil, since God said ‘man is become as one of us, to know good and evil’. Specially, your logic ‘You only KNOW evil by DOING evil’, doesn’t work with God at all. If the scripture is true, Adam and Eve gained a certain knowledge from the fruit which God had before, and it cannot be any experiential knowledge of good or evil.
2. Is n’t it very clear, to live for ever, they had to eat it?

I think you got my point.

Do you say, God also EXPERIECED Evil, to know it fully?

There were two trees in the garden, the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.
Some believe that evil is in animals as the serpant’snake’ Do you?
Dessert

**
“Be Jesus, Share Jesus” Blessed Mother Teresa**

 

[dessert]

Preparation? If God knew, Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, why would God demand some imperfect sacrifices of all those animals?

Because Adam’s blood was tainted with sin, he wasn’t pure, his soul ( the breath of life God the Father breathed into him) was doomed. Cain and Abel brought the first fruits of their labor to God as penance and offering as Jesus ( the Word made flesh)had not come to the world as yet. Adam and Eve were on speaking terms with the Creator. Adam and Eve ate the animals they just didn’t just sacrifice them. Jesus is the first fruit of the Father we eat or commune with Him at the Eucharist and recieve Him into our body as the fruit of the vine(tree). Only can we do this because He gave His pure blood as the sacrifice on the cross as He was conceived by the Holy spirit and knew no sin. He was tempted in a garden also. Did God set this all up? I do not know the mind of God or the will, I follow the shepherd of my life Jesus the Christ.
Dessert

Shepherd me O God beyond my wounds, wants, beyond my fears from death unto life. song of Gretchin Harris accompany with her husband

 

[Keikiolu]

Originally Posted by #194 Khalfan Can anyone help this guy ‘Keikiolu’, to understand his own scriptures? Let me point out some of nonsense he uttered.

Quote:There was no “knowledge” contained in the fruit. The only thing “contained” in the fruit was (LISTEN CAREFULLY!) confirmation that one had chosen to do evil over good upon eating the fruit…!! You are clearly contradicting Genesis.

Gen. 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

​

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeikioluUh,… Satan said that in that passage, dude.Nice trick leaving your…, the speaker of this passage, out of the quote.Out of Quote?? I don’t have make agree on that my dear, because God did it already in your scripture, in Gen 3:22.

​

My point was that the fruit did not CONTAIN any secret knowledge. It was merely a signal to God and to man that if it were “bitten into” man would realize that he had disobeyed God, and that that realization (by man) is the KNOWLEDGE (experience) of good (which man suddenly “left”) and evil (which man suddenly “entered”).

The reason that it was important to know that Satan spoke Gen3:5 was that the verse that you quoted was the “enticement” portion, which was proceeded by the “lying” portion, Gen3:4, which was “But the serpent said to the woman, ‘You will not die’…”

My overall point in this exchange with you is that Satan used lies mixed with truths (Gen3:4 & Gen3:5) to “convince” Eve that she could do something, against God’s wishes, which she KNEW was an evil.

Why was she convincable? Not because she was “unprepared” for Satan’s tactics, because his tactics were worthless against someone who knew what she knew, UNLESS by free choice (free will) she simply puts herself above God, which she did.

In other words, she KNEW (experienced) that it was GOOD to obey God before she partook of the fruit, and she was AWARE (but did not KNOW {experience}) that it was EVIL to disobey God before she partook of the fruit.

Once she partook of the fruit, she KNEW (experienced) BOTH good and evil, which only God “KNEW” before that time.

You contend that man was unprepared for Satan. I disagree with that, because if that were true then man’s first sin was not commited out of free will, which makes it “NOT a sin”, but rather an inevitability.

If man’s fall was an inevitability, and not a CHOICE, then free will simply doesn’t exist.

Allah runs (would run if he were God) the world by predeterministic means, meaning the means of a slave (robot) master.

God runs the world as a Father, supporting above all things the free will of those creatures with free will, by rewarding those who deserve reward and correcting (“punishing”) those who deserve correction.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[kaysette]

Your scripture seems to say it contained the knowledge. But it is illogoc to believe so. It is illogic not only for the people of other religions like me, but also for Christians like many in this forum.

Yeah, well, it is also illogical to me that my son took some LSD and saw things that were not there. How can something so tiny as a sticker produce so much havoc in his life and cause so much tragedy?

To tell you the truth, I don’t understand how shiploads of folks died of scurvy because of one vitamin.

In fact, it is illogical to me that a heart beats at all, or that a virgin can have a baby without a man, or that someone cloned a sheep.

For me, there are just some things that don’t warrant questioning and if eating that fruit from that tree caused all of mankind to genetically pass down Adam’s death trait and sin --then it was indeed SOME FRUIT, but then again, we are talking about Almighty God and a place that none of us have ever been nor seen.

 

[Keikiolu]

Now you are misinterpreting the verse. You miss 2 important points there. Let me underline what is that.

Ge:3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

1. If the knowledge was the experience of evil, you will have to agree that God also must have experienced good and evil, since God said ‘man is become as one of us, to know good and evil’. Specially, your logic ‘You only KNOW evil by DOING evil’, doesn’t work with God at all.

KNOWING evil is not necessarily DOING evil, but EXPERIENCING evil.

God KNEW (experienced) evil when Satan “invented” evil.

Evil is the “disobeyance” of God. God knows when He is being disobeyed.

You are missing the point of the story by being too freakin’ literalistic.

If the scripture is true, Adam and Eve gained a certain knowledge from the fruit which God had before, and it cannot be any experiential knowledge of good or evil.

See above. And why has your grammar improved?

1. Is n’t it very clear, to live for ever, they had to eat it?

Man was doomed to die (not immediately but eventually) when he ate of the Tree of Good and Evil. If he had then, AFTER eating of the ToG&E, eaten of the Tree of Life, he would have been “cured” of death, and lived forever, as he would have done before eating of the ToG&E,… but it would have been “improper” for man to have not “paid” for his original sin by an immediate reprieve.

The reason he was driven from the garden was “for his own good” so that he would fully learn what it is to disobey God.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
They ONLY experienced good before eating of the fruit. That’s the point.

They knew, before the eating, that evil was something, which they hadn’t experienced yet, that was not-good.

They FULLY knew (experienced) evil when they disobeyed God, and they FULLY knew (experienced) good, in contrast, because now they had a REAL EXPERIENCE of evil to contrast with good.
Do you say, God also EXPERIECED Evil, to know it fully?

God experienced evil by the DOING of evil by Satan.

It is silly to consider that God doesn’t KNOW (experience) everything, isn’t it?

 

[Keikiolu]

Consider your allegation,

*God doesn’t want SOME and not want others. You seem to imply that your god specifically “created” evil so that he would have the “pleasure” of having some to be his slaves, and some to sadistically feed into the fires of hell.

That god is not God.*

**and my answer to that,

Who saying this to whom? Bible says People of Israel are the chosen people of God. How about others? Even today, Jews all over the world want die in Israel –the Holy land.**

I hope you have a question to answer.

I have no idea what you said means.

In your opinion, did God create evil?

 

[Keikiolu]

Dear brother, the death said was spiritual.

Ge:2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They were supposed to die the day they eat, like poisoned.

Man’s “immortality” did die THAT DAY.

The death that they “got”, by sinning, was the death of the body, to be applied when they had “worn out” their physical bodies.

Physical death has nothing to do with that. Today, every Tom, **** and Harry knows why we die. Don’t be so blind religious. A bit knowledge of science will help you a lot.

You may believe as you wish.

Before eating of the Tree of Good and Evil, man was not capable of physically dying.

The moment man ate the fruit, he lost his “perfection”, which allowed him to never die, and became mortal.

He DIED that very moment as an immortal being, but continued to live (physically) as a mortal being.

Got it? You DON’T have to agree with it, but do you simply understand what I’m saying?

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Yes,… and Eve and Adam died (physically) because they disobeyed God, and because they died, we all, their progeny, die physically.
I don’t know how to make it up these things to you, when you are so blind. Adam and Eve were supposed to die physically, even if they didn’t sin. You don’t have to hate science because you religious. If there is something that dosen’t match with established science, that is not the problem of science, but the way you understand your religion. Because ultimately, God is the creator of science as well.

I think you should learn a bit about how Quran and Islam deals with science.

You may believe as you like, buckeroo.

Islam is a weird complex of materialism and “spiritualism”, in my opinion.

You might want to read up on what the Church (Catholic) says about:

Genesis: CCC390
Faith and Science: CCC159
(( CCC Search ))

God is the creator of everything, and the beauty of all things seen and unseen are His beauty.

Thanks chief…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[TOME]

I think the way the post are going we are looking at the verses way to literally.

One thing I think we should remember is when ever we attempt to talk about or understand God we are dealing with someone totally other than ourselves and our expressions are limited by our humanness. We can only express our knowledge in human terms which are, even when such expressions being guided by the Holy Spirit.

I would like to offer another idea for consideration. I have read in some of the responses that evil exist as something onto itself. But in the philosophy of St. Thomas, he offers that evil in itself does not exist. What we experience in evil is actually a lack of “The Good”.

By our human nature we tend towards that which is “Good” and the ultimate good is, of coarse, God. We, by nature, choose what we perceive to be a “Good”. Our choices towards the good are rooted in our knowledge of the “Good”. This knowledge comes to us through our intellect and is immediate and through our reason, that is the knowledge we gain through our senses and experience.

But we are creatures, not God, so our knowledge of the “Good” is finite and can be deceived or faulty. This was true before “The Fall” and is more true after the Fall. Prior to “The Fall” our knowledge of “Good” was through our intellect, that is it was immediate and contingent on any sense experience. There was separating us from the knowledge of the “Good” through Adam’s intimate relationshipship with God as illustrated by man’s walking in the garden each day with God.

Yet, as the story of “The Fall” continues our reason (knowledge of “The Good” gained through sense experience) can and was deceived so that what was perceived to be a “Good” was not. What was perceived to be something that not only brought us closer to the ultimate “Good”, namely God, but would in effect but would make man “The Good” onto himself (“you will be like God”).

One attribute of God we find throughout both the Old and New Testament is God is Love. From the scriptures, especially in the letters of the New Testament, in His Love God gave us “Free Will” - we have the will to choose to live according to our natures as God has intended or to choose something other. If we didn’t have this “Free Will” (even a Will weakened by sin) then Jesus would have been unjust in His demand that all who follow Him must choose to live in response to and for the Kingdom of God.

In the story of “The Fall” we find all the different aspect being related through very human terms. Man’s knowledge of God, thus “The Good” was immediate as presented in his daily walks in the garden with God. Yet man’s reason, despite the knowledge of “Good” knowing through his intellect, could be deceived and his understanding of the “Good” could actually be an illusion. We find this in the symbolism of the fruit and how pleasing it looked.

 

[TOME]

(Continued)

And Genesis continues with a story which expressed a fundelment truth, namely, while our reason can be deceived and we mistake what is not good to be “The Good” (again as symbolized by the fruit) it is actually the act of the Will that causes sin. The women was deceived in her temptation however the man made the free choice to go again his nature - he understood through his intellect, that is his immediate knowledge of the “Good” - God, that he was a creature and not the author of what is truly good of best for him, known immediately from his intimate relationship with God.

This brings me back to my first point, that evil does not exist in and of itself. Rather, it is a lack of good. It is the gap that comes to exist the more we move away from God (The ultimate Good). The more an act moves us away from our intimate relationship with God the greater is the lack of true goodness and we call this evil. The act of freely choosing to reject what man innately knew to be the good could be called evil because of it’s total lack of the good or separation from God.

Thus the ultimate evil is death because death is the total absence of life. For a people and culture that had no metaphysics as was the case of the Hebrew and later Israelite people this could only be expressed as a physical death. But I think the theology of the Eastern Tradition of the Church expresses the meaning of death in a way we can all understand. The ultimate death is the absence of God’s life or grace in a person’s life. I think this builds well on the Christian understanding of physical death - life has not ended but merely changed.

As I wrote before, after the story of “The Fall” Genesis continues to relate the effects on human nature once man had so fundelmentally rejected God in order to become his own god. Actually this is the story of the rest of the Bible.

However, I cannot end this post without pointing out that the ultimate end of the Biblical Story is God’s unending and unconditional Love expressed beyond human understanding and imagination in the Incarnation.

 

[Keikiolu]

I think the way the post are going we are looking at the verses way to literally.

Hear hear…!

One thing I think we should remember is when ever we attempt to talk about or understand God we are dealing with someone totally other than ourselves …

The great insight (revelation) of Christianity is that God is a Trinity of Three Persons.

When God is regarded as a single ineffable “utterly other”, our understanding of Him is “limited” and “incomplete”.

This “incompleteness” begets the symptoms seen in the various non-Christian monotheistic religions.

…St. Thomas, he offers that evil in itself does not exist. What we experience in evil is actually a lack of “The Good”.

I’ll buy that. Even Satan is not “evil itself”, just it’s most ardent practitioner.

To posit Evil as a “being”, or even as a “thing” (creation), which, by definition only God could “create” in the proper sense of the word “create”, is a heresy (that I can’t thnk of at this moment) that would make God either capable of “personal evil” or make Him one of two “beings” of nearly-equal-but-opposite “polarity”.

…neither of which are acceptable,… obviously.

…Our choices towards the good are rooted in our knowledge of the “Good”. …that is the knowledge we gain through our senses and experience.

But we are creatures, not God, so our knowledge of the “Good” is finite and can be deceived or faulty. This was true before “The Fall” and is more true after the Fall. …

Yet, as the story of “The Fall” continues our reason (knowledge of “The Good” gained through sense experience) can and was deceived so that what was perceived to be a “Good” was not. What was perceived to be something that not only brought us closer to the ultimate “Good”, namely God, but would in effect but would make man “The Good” onto himself (“you will be like God”).

I, personally, think that man was “deceptively enticed”, not “convincingly decieved” by Satan.

Eve had all that was necessary to determine that it was NOT A GOOD IDEA to eat the fruit.

She wasn’t convinced that what she was about to do was “NOT EVIL”. She willingly chose to do evil, which she KNEW was evil, because she put her “want” above the “wants” of God, after being enticed by the lies of Satan.

One attribute of God we find throughout both the Old and New Testament is God is Love. From the scriptures, especially in the letters of the New Testament, in His Love God gave us “Free Will” - we have the will to choose to live according to our natures as God has intended or to choose something other. If we didn’t have this “Free Will” (even a Will weakened by sin) then Jesus would have been unjust in His demand that all who follow Him must choose to live in response to and for the Kingdom of God.

In the story of “The Fall” we find all the different aspect being related through very human terms. Man’s knowledge of God, thus “The Good” was immediate as presented in his daily walks in the garden with God.

Yet man’s reason, despite the knowledge of “Good” knowing through his intellect, could be deceived and his understanding of the “Good” could actually be an illusion. We find this in the symbolism of the fruit and how pleasing it looked.

Eve was “full of grace” and incapable of mistaking evil for good.

Yet she chose evil, freely. Why?

Since EVERYTHING created by God is “beautiful”, and nothing isn’t, the “beauty” of the fruit is utterly irrelevant to why she would or wouldn’t have chosen it.

There were two active elements in the reason she chose to eat the fruit. The inherent danger of free will, and the enticement of Satan.

Any non-deterministic thing, like free will, is dangerous, because there’s simply no accounting for it’s behavior at all times.

God knows what free will is, yet gave it to man, after the angels, who themselves proved that it could be abused, but He did it anyway.

Satan was allowed into the garden because there was only heaven or earth to “be in”, and God respected Satan’s free will to do as he chose, within the bounds of “Godly Reason”, which is by definition is “most wise”, of course.

The whole point of the story is not that man was predestined to fall, or that free will isn’t really free, or that Satan is an utterly incombatable force (that man COULDN’T resist him),… but that God freely gave, out of love, a quality that only He and the angels possessed, and that He respects our use of it, regardless of how we do use it, and STILL loves us anyway…!

…of course if we use it incorrectly, we get more homework to do, but at least He hasn’t ever completely abandoned us to degenerate into monsters, and has given us lots of very clever assistance,… which SOME fragment will use to make it to the promised end.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

(Continued)

And Genesis continues with a story which expressed a fundelment truth, namely, while our reason can be deceived and we mistake what is not good to be “The Good” (again as symbolized by the fruit) it is actually the act of the Will that causes sin. The women was deceived in her temptation however the man made the free choice to go again his nature - he understood through his intellect, that is his immediate knowledge of the “Good” - God, that he was a creature and not the author of what is truly good of best for him, known immediately from his intimate relationship with God.

Nope. Can’t buy that one.

Man, as a whole, was “enticed”, not “convinced”, and chose sin and death.

This brings me back to my first point, that evil does not exist in and of itself. Rather, it is a lack of good. It is the gap that comes to exist the more we move away from God (The ultimate Good).

Evil does exist, as a behavior, most exemplified in it’s master practitioner Satan, as evil is a DELIBERATE act, and is not simply less-than-good (“mistaken”) behavior.

The more an act moves us away from our intimate relationship with God the greater is the lack of true goodness and we call this evil. The act of freely choosing to reject what man innately knew to be the good could be called evil because of it’s total lack of the good or separation from God.

Thus the ultimate evil is death because death is the total absence of life. For a people and culture that had no metaphysics as was the case of the Hebrew and later Israelite people this could only be expressed as a physical death. But I think the theology of the Eastern Tradition of the Church expresses the meaning of death in a way we can all understand. The ultimate death is the absence of God’s life or grace in a person’s life. I think this builds well on the Christian understanding of physical death - life has not ended but merely changed.

Uh,… OK.

As I wrote before, after the story of “The Fall” Genesis continues to relate the effects on human nature once man had so fundelmentally rejected God in order to become his own god. Actually this is the story of the rest of the Bible.

Quite so…!

However, I cannot end this post without pointing out that the ultimate end of the Biblical Story is God’s unending and unconditional Love expressed beyond human understanding and imagination in the Incarnation.

Christ is the fruit of that other “forbidden” tree in the garden, of course.

…but before we get to “eat of it”, and in fact even after we are allowed to eat of it, we have a few things to learn.

Just like a Dad, isn’t it? Teach, teach, teach, give the kids a little taste of the big party at the end of the lessons, teach some more, test time, head for the playground.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[anthony022071]

Adam and Eve? and the Fall of Man?

C’mon, we all know who did it. Ladies, do you *have *to eat everything ?

 

[Keikiolu]

Adam and Eve? and the Fall of Man?

C’mon, we all know who did it. Ladies, do you *have *to eat everything ?

Heh he he he he… purty phunny…!!

…was that dangling munchie “chocolate coated”, perhaps?

 

[dessert]

I think the way the post are going we are looking at the verses way to literally.

-]/-]

Yes God walked with man in the garden, and when God was out of site, do you think He was out of man’s mind a little.

God made a way for Himself to live within man through Jesus, the second adam. Dessert

 

[jedimasterham]

evolution happened, adam and eve and god were created by man to help them feel less lonely.

 

[dessert]

Adam and Eve? and the Fall of Man?

C’mon, we all know who did it. Ladies, do you *have *to eat everything ?

We became the GooD cook even when you guys brought home the worthog look what we could make that into a worthog stew, so don’t spill the beans on the cave floor! and we didn’t even have Betty Boop Crocker to help!

:doh2: :yawn: Man may work from sun to sun but a woman’s work is never done.
Dessert