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GEddie
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What riddles about the body?
A&E had human bodies. What they would have become, we cannot know.
ICXC NIKA
Did Adam and Eve originally have earthly bodies, or glorified bodies?
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A&E had human bodies. What they would have become, we cannot know.
ICXC NIKA
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Jon_S_1
Guest
It seems to me that they likely had glorified bodies, since that is how aI do not consider these earthly bodies as being completely evil, but they do often act as torture chambers which would be inconstant with Paradise. I therefore contend that their bodies in Paradise must have been glorified bodies, incapable of pain and suffering.
I do not really expect a definitive answer because this seems to be a gray area that no mortal man can answer for certain, but it is a thoughtful question, I think, and cast doubts that these earthly bodies are purely good.
LOVE!
Christ Body is now and how our bodies will be when God makes all things new and as they were intended to be in the new earth.
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glendab
Guest
Hello Robert.
Actually I’m beginning to feel sad for you Robert, since you are a revert but seem to have lost something of the faith that is basic. I guess that is why it seems such a riddle to you. But it really is as plain as the nose on your face. I hope you someday find your riddle’s answer.
Glenda
I think it was explained very nicely by DJ’s post about increasing her pains of childbirth vs. introducing pain to begin with. Of course you are perfectly free to reject the Bible’s accounts and the attempts here to explain them and insist it is a riddle still, but that really is inaccurate. It would wash with those who don’t either own a Bible or aren’t familiar with the story of Adam and Eve. But most of us here aren’t of that class of persons.Thank you very much!!!
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12107231&postcount=16
Perhaps you can argue with the above post that I linked. I believe that Adam and Eve experienced no pain, at least that’s what I always thought, but I honestly cannot imagine how it could have been if they had earthly bodies. You provide plenty of reading material, but nowhere have I read anything that truly solves the apparent riddle.
LOVE!
Actually I’m beginning to feel sad for you Robert, since you are a revert but seem to have lost something of the faith that is basic. I guess that is why it seems such a riddle to you. But it really is as plain as the nose on your face. I hope you someday find your riddle’s answer.
Glenda
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glendab
Guest
Hello Granny.
Glenda
There was no gift of immortality given Adam and Eve. They lived in Eden yes and there were two trees there - one that contained the knowledge of good and evil, the one that they eventually ate to fruit of and the tree of life that IF the had eaten the fruit of they would’ve been locked into and eternally fallen state. Thus God sent an angel there a cherubim with a fiery revolving sword to guard the way to the tree of life lest they eat of it and then receive life immortal. They didn’t have that at all, but they did live in a state of grace we don’t know. So there ya have it. My explanation and I’m stickin’ to it.
Glenda
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Robert_Sock
Guest
I hope I’m wrong, but it sounds like you’re trying to belittle me and the issue that I presented.
LOVE!
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Robert_Sock
Guest
So sorry, but I’m still confused and did not find anything presented here to clarify things; the explanations seem scant and insufficient.
Again, the riddle for me is that if Adam and Eve had earthly bodies, they must certainly have had experienced some sort of pain during their stay in this world.
LOVE!
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grannymh
Guest
How about a compromise between pain and suffering?So sorry, but I’m still confused and did not find anything presented here to clarify things; the explanations seem scant and insufficient.
Again, the riddle for me is that if Adam and Eve had earthly bodies, they must certainly have had experienced some sort of pain during their stay in this world.
LOVE!
But first, please take a look at this link regarding the extra gifts God gave Adam and Eve. catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35763
And then please take a look at these sentences from CCC, 376. They appear to coincide with Genesis 2: 17.
**“376 **By the radiance of this grace all dimensions of man’s life were confirmed. As long as he remained in the divine intimacy, man would not have to suffer or die.”
Here “grace” refers back to Adam’s original “state of holiness and justice” explained in CCC, 375 as the grace in which Adam and Eve shared in God’s divine life. This is also known as the State of Sanctifying Grace in which we too share in God’s divine life. Awesome!
Here is a compromise. Since Adam had a material anatomy, it is reasonable that a clumsy fall could produce a quick stab of pain. But, Adam would not have to suffer from his fall or die from the fall.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
I do not want to sound too picky, but the CCC states that they “would not have to suffer,” but then you state that Adam could feel some pain if he fell. If Adam was able to feel the least bit of pain, then what the CCC says is not true.
Also, relevant to the topic, did Adam and Eve age during their stay in the Garden? If not, at what ‘age’ did God create them, in comparison to the human age-span that we know today? Moreover, how is it possible that the human body would not age? Again, would such a body still be considered ‘human’ and earthly?
My thought would be to conclude that Adam and Eve must have had glorified bodies.
LOVE!
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GEddie
Guest
We don’t know the ages. Scripture does not tell us, and it’s not much of a question. Kind of like the old question of whether or not A&E had bellybuttons.I do not want to sound too picky, but the CCC states that they “would not have to suffer,” but then you state that Adam could feel some pain if he fell. If Adam was able to feel the least bit of pain, then what the CCC says is not true.
Also, relevant to the topic, did Adam and Eve age during their stay in the Garden? If not, at what ‘age’ did God create them, in comparison to the human age-span that we know today? Moreover, how is it possible that the human body would not age? Again, would such a body still be considered ‘human’ and earthly?
My thought would be to conclude that Adam and Eve must have had glorified bodies.
LOVE!
As to ageing, ISTM this is not an issue either. They did not have immortal bodies; they would have needed the tree of life to keep them from dying, which is why in the same bodies, eviction from access to the TOL led to their deaths.
So it makes sense that the TOL would have kept them from ageing, but that their standard-issue human bodies would have been otherwise subject to it.
ICXC NIKA
ICXC NIKA
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glendab
Guest
Hello Granny.
Glenda
I agree with some of what you say and the quotes from the CCC are very helpful for this thread. But you’re stating that the grace of original justice and holiness that were Adam and Eve’s is the same thing as sanctifying grace when you state: " This is also known as the State of Sanctifying Grace in which we too share in God’s divine life. Awesome!" This part isn’t exactly correct. Sanctifying grace is exactly that - it takes that which isn’t holy and makes it holy. It sanctifies. It isn’t the same thing as what Adam and Eve had before their fall. We do share in God’s divine life when we come to Him in the Eucharist, but we are far from Holy, that is we are being sanctified by Him. It is a process not completed in this life unless He wills it and to be honest the number of Saints who were holy while in our midst gives you an idea of how rare this actually is. There really is a difference between the state mentioned in the CCC for Adam and Eve and that which we live. They aren’t the same thing.
Glenda
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grannymh
Guest
I understand what you are saying. In addition, there is God’s presence, that is, we are given a “share in the divine life of the Trinity.”
CCC, Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898
SANCTIFYING GRACE: The grace which heals our human nature wounded by sin by giving us a share in the divine life of the Trinity. It is a habitual, supernatural gift which continues the work of sanctifying us—of making us “perfect,” holy, and Christlike (1999).
CCC, 1999
**1999 **The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the *sanctifying *or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.
From CCC, 356
**356 **Of all visible creatures only man is “able to know and love his creator”. He is “the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake”, and he alone is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity:
CCC, 375
**375 **The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”. This grace of original holiness was “to share in. . .divine life”.
I put these paragraphs together some time ago because I had my own questions about the original State of Sanctifying Grace. The odd thing is that what convinced me is the CCC, Glossary definition of Mortal Sin, page 889.
MORTAL SIN: A grave infraction of the law of God that destroys the divine life in the soul of the sinner (sanctifying grace), constituting a turn away from God. For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must be present: grave matter, full knowledge of the evil of the act, and full consent of the will (1855, 1857).
Because CCC, 356 refers to the reason man was created, sharing in “God’s own life” applies to both Adam and us.
It is CCC, 375 which describes Adam’s state in the same manner as the description of Sanctifying Grace –
“to share in . . . divine life”. Footnote 250 is Cf. Council of Trent (1546): DS 1511. Footnote 251 is Cf. LG 2.
In my humble opinion, some of the attempts to distinguish actual grace from sanctifying grace are a bit cloudy. I have not researched them in depth. Nor have I researched the Sacrament of Baptism. Recently, after all the years of being Catholic, it dawned on me that “sharing in God’s life” really meant what it said. This older than dirt granny was in awe.
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PNEUMA
Guest
I think the whole paradise with Adam and Eve in it, is a metaphor. To be in paradis is to be in Gods world, in Gods love. The focal point of the story is obedience contra disobedience. In Jesus Christ we can all again become the obedient son, who loves God and is loved by God.
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glendab
Guest
Hello Pneuma.
Rather I’d like to address your seeing the Genesis accounts of our ancestry as a simple metaphor. Let me see if I get you - you still believe in the Church’s interpretations of this Biblical account, but also see an on going lesson, a metaphor in a lesser sense, for something - obedience and it’s necessity to obtain and remain in a state of Grace provided by God. Are you discounting or diminishing the actual Church’s understanding or taking issue with it? Please correct me if I haven’t got you right.
Glenda
No, that isn’t quite the mark to hit. Genesis are true accounts of the creation of the Universe the Earth, all the creatures in it and man, Adam and Eve. They are not a metaphor, an analogy, a myth or a literary device as many in recent years have tried to make them out to be. Some being exposed to the scientific theory of evolution have a harder time grasping this story of our history than those who are familiar with it before attending schools where evolution is taught as fact. But any honest scientist will tell you that the theory of evolution is that just a theory and not a provable fact. However, I’m on shaky grounds sharing this here at CAF because it gets so much heat it is a banned topic. So no more from me on the matter.
Rather I’d like to address your seeing the Genesis accounts of our ancestry as a simple metaphor. Let me see if I get you - you still believe in the Church’s interpretations of this Biblical account, but also see an on going lesson, a metaphor in a lesser sense, for something - obedience and it’s necessity to obtain and remain in a state of Grace provided by God. Are you discounting or diminishing the actual Church’s understanding or taking issue with it? Please correct me if I haven’t got you right.
Glenda
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glendab
Guest
Hello Granny.
So, as I understand it, we are given a share in the divine life but we aren’t either divine or sanctified. That work has its completion in Heaven, as God wills. That was my first issue with your posts. It seemed as if you wanted to say that the share in the divine life of both Adam and Even in Eden and us was the same share and that Adam and Even had been sanctified as they were in the Garden. I was confused by you saying that their holiness and justice were the same thing. I’d like to add that in my eyes, the sanctified state is a completed state, the work of God for that particular soul being done. Mary is the example I can use, all though she is much more than Eve or you or I or anyone else could hope for or be. She has been completely sanctified and her works on behalf of God and His People in Heaven continue. Her works are holy but they aren’t sanctifying; they can obtain it for those she intercedes for, but it is still God who does the work of sanctification, that is why He told us to call the Holy Spirit the Sanctifier with a capital “S”.
I do not agree with you that Adam and Eve were sanctified in Eden. It is as you say, a share in the life of the Trinity that they experienced but still just a share. They were justified and holy in that they had no sins, either personal or Original, but that is as far as it went. They never had Original sin, they could only commit personal sin, which they did as we all know. But the type of holiness they had wasn’t sanctified because if that is what they actually had, they never would have fallen, nor would they be any longer in Eden. They’d be in Heaven not in a garden. The manifestation, though not the only one, of their share was that they conversed with God in the evenings in Eden. And God did speak to them and He was very pleased with them and His creation. But I cannot agree with your statement that they were either being sanctified or were sanctified. To me, as I’ve said that is a fulfilled state of life rarely experienced by humans this side of the daises. It couldn’t have been theirs, Adam and Eve.
I hope this helps your understanding my point of view. I think it might help you to contemplate the length of time factor in the works of sanctifying grace. Time takes time and works take time too. In Heaven there is no time the works and the Worker rest. But the actual works themselves will continue until the end of time. This end of time is ours not God’s for God is actually timeless. It think if you add the notion of time to the picture, it will help you in your understanding of the word sanctify/sanctification. It will cease to be a word on a page and will be the Third person of the Trinity - the Sanctifier and then it will come to life for you. He is a living God, not a stagnant word on a page describing an event.
Granny, please do not be offended by what I’ve written. I don’t mean it that way. I’m simply expressing my own understanding of this stuff.
Glenda
I’ve shortened your post a bit. Forgive me. However, I’d like to emphasize that *a share in *the divine life is that - a share in, as in a portion not the whole thing. We have *a taste of *Heaven in the Eucharist, but it is only a taste. We glimpse the life of the Trinity in Heaven, but if we beheld it in the fullest sense, we’d be dead and in Heaven. The portion of the life of Christ we experience here is a miniscule portion. Our humanity couldn’t stand it if we saw God as He is. This is in the Bible.
So, as I understand it, we are given a share in the divine life but we aren’t either divine or sanctified. That work has its completion in Heaven, as God wills. That was my first issue with your posts. It seemed as if you wanted to say that the share in the divine life of both Adam and Even in Eden and us was the same share and that Adam and Even had been sanctified as they were in the Garden. I was confused by you saying that their holiness and justice were the same thing. I’d like to add that in my eyes, the sanctified state is a completed state, the work of God for that particular soul being done. Mary is the example I can use, all though she is much more than Eve or you or I or anyone else could hope for or be. She has been completely sanctified and her works on behalf of God and His People in Heaven continue. Her works are holy but they aren’t sanctifying; they can obtain it for those she intercedes for, but it is still God who does the work of sanctification, that is why He told us to call the Holy Spirit the Sanctifier with a capital “S”.
I do not agree with you that Adam and Eve were sanctified in Eden. It is as you say, a share in the life of the Trinity that they experienced but still just a share. They were justified and holy in that they had no sins, either personal or Original, but that is as far as it went. They never had Original sin, they could only commit personal sin, which they did as we all know. But the type of holiness they had wasn’t sanctified because if that is what they actually had, they never would have fallen, nor would they be any longer in Eden. They’d be in Heaven not in a garden. The manifestation, though not the only one, of their share was that they conversed with God in the evenings in Eden. And God did speak to them and He was very pleased with them and His creation. But I cannot agree with your statement that they were either being sanctified or were sanctified. To me, as I’ve said that is a fulfilled state of life rarely experienced by humans this side of the daises. It couldn’t have been theirs, Adam and Eve.
I hope this helps your understanding my point of view. I think it might help you to contemplate the length of time factor in the works of sanctifying grace. Time takes time and works take time too. In Heaven there is no time the works and the Worker rest. But the actual works themselves will continue until the end of time. This end of time is ours not God’s for God is actually timeless. It think if you add the notion of time to the picture, it will help you in your understanding of the word sanctify/sanctification. It will cease to be a word on a page and will be the Third person of the Trinity - the Sanctifier and then it will come to life for you. He is a living God, not a stagnant word on a page describing an event.
Granny, please do not be offended by what I’ve written. I don’t mean it that way. I’m simply expressing my own understanding of this stuff.
Glenda
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glendab
Guest
P.P.S. to the above post - Seen this way it is easy to see Purgatory as the Fire of God’s Love for us. Really that is what it is. Too many focus on the suffering part and not the outcome - Heaven. So when I see the flames around the Sacred Heart, I think about Purgatory and realize that His Love is really what will embrace me in Purgatory, not some horrible beyond human suffering. I also understand that the amount of suffering we experience is increased or reduced by our own attachment to sin and particular sins, as in I reeeeally like chocolate, but too much is sinful and each time I indulged this particular sinful inclination, I actually made it harder to let go of in Purgatory and have made more work for the sanctifying grace of the Purgatorial flames to do. Now I’ve reallllllly said way too much. Sorry for boring you.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I don’t know, we use the term glorified in relation to standing before the throne of God in the particular judgement-final judgement. Adam and Eve wouldn’t have reached this point, but they would have had a higher level or elevated level of control over their human nature. The pain aspect and perceptional awareness of the fallen self and sin also changed for the worse along with the rest of post fall consequence. So they knew good and evil. So they didn’t know evil prior. Still free-will intact, but to a higher level of control.My thought would be to conclude that Adam and Eve must have had glorified bodies.
LOVE!
They were blessed and in covenant with God- God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
They are establishing Gods kingdom and communion of saints between earth and heaven.
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PNEUMA
Guest
I think the Church knows that the lost paradis as well as the new paradis is not a physical paradis. There was no physical tree of life in the lost paradis and there is no physical tree of life in the new paradis, its just a metaphor, the same goes for all the rest.
BTW: I do not belive in the theory of evolution.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Yea, but you know there is much to consider, as there is with evolution. For example in specifics evolution is factual and not incompatible. This doesn’t mean God isn’t the cause of all plants in fact Genesis states so. But with Adam and Eve there are some points which need to be considered to add perspective imho.
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholicdoors.com%2Fcatechis%2Fcat0279.htm&ei=B7uoU4qDH4mMqAbAk4DYAg&usg=AFQjCNF0mDZFBxY3O5Zc__qA_JQI9DBiGg
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vatican.va%2Fholy_father%2Fpius_xii%2Fencyclicals%2Fdocuments%2Fhf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html&ei=LbGoU_3_BNCYqAbHjoHYDA&usg=AFQjCNFOZD6qrDpjlXLtWBRUPQep23sJIg
also Genesis and Covenants, so there is a good deal which is required to be believed.
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PNEUMA
Guest
Do you think you are required to be believe all that text you linked to ?
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GaryTaylor
Guest
There is a “good deal” which is required to be believed which I think should be considered imho. Original sin and its transmission to mankind, fallen state of man, Gods covenants and Adam and Eves blessing in Genesis. I think it adds perspective.
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