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aball1035
Guest
I hear that death came after sin. Does this only apply to humans? Furthermore, is this referring to a natural death or spiritual?
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dshix
Guest
Animals did not fall. Animals didn’t have sanctifying grace in the first place, nor did they ever have an immortal soul.I hear that death came after sin. Does this only apply to humans? Furthermore, is this referring to a natural death or spiritual?
I don’t know how God would have done things before the fall (maybe he would have given animals infinite lifespans; who knows) but I do know that animals were no more holy or good than they are now; they didn’t change very much, really.
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devoutchristian
Guest
All suffering and death (physical evil) was caused by original sin, of course it is possible that animals could have suffered and died chronologically before original sin, while at the same time being a byproduct of original sin.
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bzkoss236
Guest
If evolution was the way in which God brought about the animals we have today and mankind, then yes, the animals would have died. Though, I can’t think of anywhere in Genesis where it says that the animals didn’t die either, so… there’s that too.
But, man would not have died before the fall, because before Adam and Eve, the first Man and Woman, they wouldn’t have been fully human, because they would be lacking an immortal, rational soul that has free will. They would be pre-human animals, and not human.
But, man would not have died before the fall, because before Adam and Eve, the first Man and Woman, they wouldn’t have been fully human, because they would be lacking an immortal, rational soul that has free will. They would be pre-human animals, and not human.
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devoutchristian
Guest
Note that one thing can logically follow another while being chronologically prior to it.If evolution was the way in which God brought about the animals we have today and mankind, then yes, the animals would have died. Though, I can’t think of anywhere in Genesis where it says that the animals didn’t die either, so… there’s that too.
But, man would not have died before the fall, because before Adam and Eve, the first Man and Woman, they wouldn’t have been fully human, because they would be lacking an immortal, rational soul that has free will. They would be pre-human animals, and not human.
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beaumains
Guest
J.M.J.
Dear Aball,
As I understand it, the deathless (this might be the wrong word for it) nature of man was a sort of extra grace granted to Man in his original innocence. Even before the Fall, however, I know that there have been many saints and theologians in the Church’s history who held that man’s life here on earth was a preparation for a more perfect union with God.
What’s interesting about the death that is promised Adam and Eve - and I’m no scholar, but this is what I’ve heard - if they should eat of the fruit, is that the verb is different from just plain bodily death. In Hebrew, to intensify a word, you repeat it. In the case of, “You will surely die,” the verb is actually, “You will surely die die (or ‘die the death’).” I’ve always thought that was interesting, namely that there’s a different sort of death being talked about here. Death as in separation from God, perhaps?
With regard to animals and other living things, I’ve read some Church Fathers who held that death entered creation at large with Man’s sin. Some don’t however, and St. Thomas takes the view that dshix described. To me, it seems very far-fetched to say that nothing died, since it seems like death is such an integral part of creation - “Unless a grain of wheat fall to the ground and die, it remains but a grain.”
Dear Aball,
As I understand it, the deathless (this might be the wrong word for it) nature of man was a sort of extra grace granted to Man in his original innocence. Even before the Fall, however, I know that there have been many saints and theologians in the Church’s history who held that man’s life here on earth was a preparation for a more perfect union with God.
What’s interesting about the death that is promised Adam and Eve - and I’m no scholar, but this is what I’ve heard - if they should eat of the fruit, is that the verb is different from just plain bodily death. In Hebrew, to intensify a word, you repeat it. In the case of, “You will surely die,” the verb is actually, “You will surely die die (or ‘die the death’).” I’ve always thought that was interesting, namely that there’s a different sort of death being talked about here. Death as in separation from God, perhaps?
With regard to animals and other living things, I’ve read some Church Fathers who held that death entered creation at large with Man’s sin. Some don’t however, and St. Thomas takes the view that dshix described. To me, it seems very far-fetched to say that nothing died, since it seems like death is such an integral part of creation - “Unless a grain of wheat fall to the ground and die, it remains but a grain.”
Pax Christi et Mariae,
D
devoutchristian
Guest
Suffering and death by a sensing being is a physical evil.
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bitznbitez
Guest
In this I agree, and this has been something I ponder. But I also have come to see that sin was in the Universe and in the Earth before Eve ate the forbidden fruit. The Devil had fallen from heaven.Suffering and death by a sensing being is a physical evil.
The precise implications I’m still pondering and will for some time.
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devoutchristian
Guest
The Devil was a purely spiritual creature with no direct dominion over physical creation, as such sin was not yet in the physical universe.In this I agree, and this has been something I ponder. But I also have come to see that sin was in the Universe and in the Earth before Eve ate the forbidden fruit. The Devil had fallen from heaven.
The precise implications I’m still pondering and will for some time.
S
shaky
Guest
I read in OT scripture in the New earth and heaven kingdom of God. There will be no Poisonous snakes and big cats will eat vegetation and not other animals.Animals did not fall. Animals didn’t have sanctifying grace in the first place, nor did they ever have an immortal soul.
I don’t know how God would have done things before the fall (maybe he would have given animals infinite lifespans; who knows) but I do know that animals were no more holy or good than they are now; they didn’t change very much, really.
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bitznbitez
Guest
So then was the snake not physical ?The Devil was a purely spiritual creature with no direct dominion over physical creation, as such sin was not yet in the physical universe.
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devoutchristian
Guest
No. (of course angels can take on the appearance of a physical body, so I imagine that Satan possibly could as well)So then was the snake not physical ?
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mhmtas
Guest
As I know there is no animal in heaven. Animals were created on the earth. When a man die Azrael(Angel of death) take soul of humanbeing. For Judgement Day God again give man o body to his soul ( Because humanbeing has free decision and will and is being test). But animals are not being test because they have no mind and concious. But their souls will remain deathless because God does not send anything to absence. İn any way presence of creatures go on.
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devoutchristian
Guest
In case anyone should fail to notice, this person is giving an Islamic, rather than Catholic viewpoint On this subject.As I know there is no animal in heaven. Animals were created on the earth. When a man die Azrael(Angel of death) take soul of humanbeing. For Judgement Day God again give man o body to his soul ( Because humanbeing has free decision and will and is being test). But animals are not being test because they have no mind and concious. But their souls will remain deathless because God does not send anything to absence. İn any way presence of creatures go on.
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jonathan_hili
Guest
The death that came as a result of sin is spiritual death. Remember in the Garden, God said to Adam and Eve that when they ate of the fruit they would die (the Hebrew is emphatic: die a death! or die a great death!). And what happened once they ate it? They dropped death instantly! Well, no…I hear that death came after sin. Does this only apply to humans? Furthermore, is this referring to a natural death or spiritual?
But they did die spiritually, and it is from this death (and ultimately all death) that Jesus came to save us. The Gospel of John makes this amply clear.
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devoutchristian
Guest
You’re confused. Both physical and spiritual death are a result of original sin.The death that came as a result of sin is spiritual death. Remember in the Garden, God said to Adam and Eve that when they ate of the fruit they would die (the Hebrew is emphatic: die a death! or die a great death!). And what happened once they ate it? They dropped death instantly! Well, no…
But they did die spiritually, and it is from this death (and ultimately all death) that Jesus came to save us. The Gospel of John makes this amply clear.
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jonathan_hili
Guest
I could very well be. Whereabouts in Scripture is that reference, cause I think I’ve overlooked it?You’re confused. Both physical and spiritual death are a result of original sin.
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devoutchristian
Guest
Catechism #400I could very well be. Whereabouts in Scripture is that reference, cause I think I’ve overlooked it?
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jonathan_hili
Guest
Oh yeah, I guess I was wrong.Catechism #400
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Bookcat
Guest
Did animals die before sin?
Sure.
Sure.
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