Did animals die before sin?

[PJM]

=aball1035;10639883]I hear that death came after sin. Does this only apply to humans? Furthermore, is this referring to a natural death or spiritual?

Only God knows for sure

I expect they did.

Original sin does not have the effect on palnt and animal souls; that it does on humanities.

WHY?

Because of the Billions od Created things; only One; only humaniity can rationalize. and choose to love or hate. Only humanity emulates our God with a mind, intellect, and freewill permnately attached to our souls:thumbsup:

As too the type of death.

The reference is too BOTH in this case.

 

[Bookcat]

‘‘Their relations marked by lust and domination’’. Are you saying Married Catholics commit lust when they have sex ?

no.

(though such could happen)

This from the Catechism will be of help

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3a7.htm#I

 

[Bookcat]

Is suffering “order”?

Sure.

The mouse has various nerve endings and abilities to feel pain – such is very helpful in life --but yes such will be stimulated at the moment the cat eats it too.

Such is part of the order of things.

 

[Bookcat]

I

The Church does not teach that the death of animals entered the world with original sin.

Creation was created in “stat via” in a state of being on the way.

“with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature.”

Animals could live and die (natural death and by being eaten by other animals) prior to original sin.

But yes death entered *for man *with the original sin --as the Catechism teaches:

“Death makes its entrance into human history”

 

[devoutchristian]

Sure.

If suffering is not contrary to a perfect order then why does the Catechism say that causing unnecessary suffering to animals is sinful.

 

[Bookcat]

If suffering is not contrary to a perfect order then why does the Catechism say that causing unnecessary suffering to animals is sinful.

Because it is. Causing unnecessary suffering IS sinful. It is contrary to human dignity. One should not torture ones cat.

PS: and the Church does not call the order of the universe a “perfect order”…the universe is created in a state of being on the way.

 

[devoutchristian]

Because it is. Causing unnecessary suffering IS sinful. It is contrary to human dignity. One should not torture ones cat.

PS: and the Church does not call the order of the universe a “perfect order”…the universe is created in a state of being on the way.

So you agree that unnecessary suffering of animals is contrary to order?

 

[LongingSoul]

Animals did not fall. Animals didn’t have sanctifying grace in the first place, nor did they ever have an immortal soul.

I don’t know how God would have done things before the fall (maybe he would have given animals infinite lifespans; who knows) but I do know that animals were no more holy or good than they are now; they didn’t change very much, really.

There probably was no death among living creatures since the concept of death was a new one on Adam and Eve after they sinned. They had previously co-existed in dominion over animals but not as a food and clothing source. God gave both humans and animals, plants as their food source.

Gen 1 - 28 *God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.*

After the fall, Adam and Eve scrambled around looking for fig leaves to cover their nakedness, but God gave them animal skins as clothing.

Gen 3 - 21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

It seems to be the point where the relationship between animals and humans took on a new level of service which incorporated death at human hands.

 

[Bookcat]

So you agree that unnecessary suffering of animals is contrary to order?

The CCC is discussing the morality of a human act of causing animals to suffer unnessarily.

 

[dshix]

There probably was no death among living creatures since the concept of death was a new one on Adam and Eve after they sinned. They had previously co-existed in dominion over animals but not as a food and clothing source. God gave both humans and animals, plants as their food source.

Gen 1 - 28 *God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.*

After the fall, Adam and Eve scrambled around looking for fig leaves to cover their nakedness, but God gave them animal skins as clothing.

Gen 3 - 21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

It seems to be the point where the relationship between animals and humans took on a new level of service which incorporated death at human hands.

I think your idea of it is interesting, and possibly true, but the truth is that in scripture there is no clear teaching as to whether or not animals died.

I personally think it very unlikely that animals did not die, simply because of the fact that God gave the gift of immortality to man, along with sanctifying grace. Animals were not given the latter, so I would reasonably assume they did not receive the former, either.

Furthermore, I can’t think of any reason why animals would inherit the effect of Adam’s sin. It was Adam’s; the effect went on to all his descendants. There’s no reason why animals would be included in that. Therefore, I conclude that they were not immortal in the first place.

 

[Bookcat]

As to the question of the thread.

The Church does not teach that the death of animals entered the world with original sin.

Creation was created in “stat via” in a state of being on the way.

“with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature.”

Animals could live and die (natural death and by being eaten by other animals) prior to original sin.

But yes death entered *for man *with the original sin --as the Catechism teaches:

“Death makes its entrance into human history”

 

[shaky]

I think your idea of it is interesting, and possibly true, but the truth is that in scripture there is no clear teaching as to whether or not animals died.

I personally think it very unlikely that animals did not die, simply because of the fact that God gave the gift of immortality to man, along with sanctifying grace. Animals were not given the latter, so I would reasonably assume they did not receive the former, either.

Furthermore, I can’t think of any reason why animals would inherit the effect of Adam’s sin. It was Adam’s; the effect went on to all his descendants. There’s no reason why animals would be included in that. Therefore, I conclude that they were not immortal in the first place.

In Genesis we read the Ground was Cursed because of the Sin of Adam. Also Jeremiah 12:4 -11 indicates this. Rom 8:22 Indicates WHOLE of Creation Groans and suffers in Pain together.
Was not hurricanes tornadoes etc weather a consequence by the fall. Also earthquakes tidal waves etc ?

 

[devoutchristian]

The CCC is discussing the morality of a human act of causing animals to suffer unnessarily.

Yes or no?

 

[irenaeuslyons]

I hear that death came after sin. Does this only apply to humans? Furthermore, is this referring to a natural death or spiritual?

The first recorded death of an animal was when God performed the first sacrifice in the garden of Eden to clothe Adam and Eve in animal skins.

credobiblestudy.com/roman/en/catholic-bible-douay-rheims-ot-book-genesis-gen-chapter-3/1/3/21

In one sense, this is fitting because it was performed by God in the Garden of Eden, and it was to cover our sin, and it prefigured every other sacrifice in salvation history including the last sacrifice of God Himself.

However, to answer your question, it only applies to humans made in the image of God. Animals cannot sin. As to natural or spiritual death, it depends on the usage of spiritual. You cannot baptize an animal with any efficacy. However, in another sense, the spirit is the principle of life, but for animals it is not eternal life, from communion with the eternal Spirit.

 

[Bookcat]

Rom 8:22 Indicates WHOLE of Creation Groans and suffers in Pain together.

Yes …and creation awaits the revelation of the sons of God…

Such though does not mean that animals did not die before the fall of man or that the various destructive forces (with the constructive forces) which are part of the order of the universe for the good of the whole were not taking place. The universe is a rather complicated arrangement.

Death entered for man at the fall.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

In Genesis we read the Ground was Cursed because of the Sin of Adam. Also Jeremiah 12:4 -11 indicates this. Rom 8:22 Indicates WHOLE of Creation Groans and suffers in Pain together.
Was not hurricanes tornadoes etc weather a consequence by the fall. Also earthquakes tidal waves etc ?

The full quotation of that curse in Genesis is

“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.” (Gen 3:17-19)

This is speaking not of thr suffering of plants, but of the suffering of Adam. From now on he will have to toil for his food. It says here that the earth will br

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

In Genesis we read the Ground was Cursed because of the Sin of Adam. Also Jeremiah 12:4 -11 indicates this. Rom 8:22 Indicates WHOLE of Creation Groans and suffers in Pain together.
Was not hurricanes tornadoes etc weather a consequence by the fall. Also earthquakes tidal waves etc ?

The full quotation of that curse in Genesis is

“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.” (Gen 3:17-19)

This is speaking not of the suffering of plants, but of the suffering of Adam. From now on he will have to toil for his food. It says here that the earth will bring forth thorns and thistles, and there is nothing about bearing thorns that causes suffering for the plants that bear them, only for the animals that want to eat them. If anything, having thorns ought to be considered a blessing as far as the plants are concerned. The curse here seems more to be about creation’s relationship with man than anything.

The text from Jeremiah is speaking of famine, not the natural state of plants due to Adam’s sin.

There are also questions that arise if death is considered incompatible with a creation that God has called “good.”

If plants did not die, because all animals ate only vegetables (and we know that at least vegetables were eaten), then all the vegetables had to be eaten in a way that would preserve the life of the plant.

If death was not good, then reproduction is not good either since the warth would soon become overpopulated. A world in which animals die is better in my eyes than one in which every square foot is packed with animals.

If the death of plants is such a tragic injustice, why wouldn’t God have saved them from death? It doesn’t seem to me that the death of plants is evil in the first place. One blade of grass is just as good as another.

 

[LongingSoul]

The first recorded death of an animal was when God performed the first sacrifice in the garden of Eden to clothe Adam and Eve in animal skins.

credobiblestudy.com/roman/en/catholic-bible-douay-rheims-ot-book-genesis-gen-chapter-3/1/3/21

In one sense, this is fitting because it was performed by God in the Garden of Eden, and it was to cover our sin, and it prefigured every other sacrifice in salvation history including the last sacrifice of God Himself.

However, to answer your question, it only applies to humans made in the image of God. Animals cannot sin. As to natural or spiritual death, it depends on the usage of spiritual. You cannot baptize an animal with any efficacy. However, in another sense, the spirit is the principle of life, but for animals it is not eternal life, from communion with the eternal Spirit.

I wonder though what would have been the purpose of dying and new birth within the animal kingdom before the fall, considering that they were not a food source for either humans or other animals. Also, animals weren’t used as clothing or in any form of sacrifice (there being no need for atonement before the fall).

Plantlife, being the source of food would have naturally been subject to ‘death’ and regeneration in order to provide for the first peoples diet. Its purpose explains the cycle. But if animals were created as lowly companions and for servitude to man only, I’m not sure that the cycle of life and death in animals has any credible explanation pre the fall?

I’m more inclined to believe that they knew death in tandem with the human fall, as a consequence of their new role in the diet of human beings?

 

[Bookcat]

Animals ate animals.

Cats ate mice. Lions ate …well what they wanted mostly…

 

[Bookcat]

I wonder

Animals ate animals.

Big ones ate small ones…