Did anyone notice?

[Frosty]

The Requiem Mass and Ash Wednesday when I was a boy back in the 50’s /60’s “Earth to earth; Ashes to ashes; Dust to dust”. When was the last time any of you heard “Remember man that thou art dust and to dust thou shalt return” on Ash Wednesday?

February 6. 2008, Ash Wednesday at our Cathedral as the Bishop placed the ashes on my forehead. Although he did say "you’ instead of “thou” and “shall” instead of “shalt”.

 

[FrDavid96]

I was an altar boy before Vatican II. My conscience was formed before Vatican II. The last time I saw black used was when my brother and I served for our grandmother’s Requiem Mass in January of 1965. When my great-aunt died in 1973 they used purple. Every other Mass I have attended since then has been white.

I gotta tell y’all that sometimes I feel so old on these forums… I’m 57 (which doesn’t quite feel so old to me). I attend a reverent OF cathedral parish. At my age (given my health conditions and my ancestry) I could go at any time. I am also a product of my time. Black vestments are far more comforting to me. White vestments assume that I died in a State of Grace… That’s a lovely thought but I have a pre-Vatican II conscience - I am a product of Catholic education from 1956 to 1969. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

I understand the symbolism of the white vestments. For me, it is presumptive. Black is the color of mourning. Black is the color of repentance. We are not protestants. We are redeemed not saved. We work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Given the option before I die, I would prefer the black vestments of my grandmother’s funeral. I am no saint that I should claim the white vestments. The Requiem Mass and Ash Wednesday when I was a boy back in the 50’s /60’s “Earth to earth; Ashes to ashes; Dust to dust”. When was the last time any of you heard “Remember man that thou art dust and to dust thou shalt return” on Ash Wednesday?

What you have said is a serious issue with regard to white vestments at a funeral.
All too often today, survivors are more concerned with “celebrating the life” of the deceased than they are with praying for that person’s soul. There is a time for both, and there is a need for both. But the Requiem Mass (and every Mass for the dead) is a time to pray “for” the dead.

White vestments and Easter hymns are an attempt at a very positive expression of our faith–that the death of a loved one should and must be viewed in the light of the Pascal Mystery. We can never deny nor make too much of this.

However, often people go to the extreme and attempt to deny the reality of the pain of death (brought about by Original Sin). At the tomb of Lazarus, “Jesus wept.” Is it wrong then for us to do the same? Are we denying our faith in the Resurrection when we take our example from the One Who rose from the dead?

Grief at the loss of a loved one is a necessary part of who we are as human beings. When we try to externally deny that grief, we are only deceiving ourselves.

Approaching a funeral exclusively as a time of celebration without also addressing the fact that we are in grief and the deceased is in need of our prayers is a very selfish attitude. We place our own desire for comfort above the need for prayers for the dead; we deny the dead the only thing we can give them that has any meaning–our prayers “for” them, not our prayers “about” them.

The Church teaches us that we must conduct funerals in light of the Pascal Mystery. Sometimes we forget that the Pascal Mystery is not only the Resurrection of Christ, but the Pasion and Death as well. We cannot have resurrection without death. Funerals must address both.

Thanks to EWTN for broadcasting a Mass for the dead employing black vestments. Thanks to the original poster for bringing this to our attention.

 

[PacoG]

I’d bet money that the real reason they wore black on 11/5 was because it was the day after the supposedly most pro-death politician in America was elected President.

I seem to remember watching the Nov. 5 Mass some years back on EWTN and the priest saying that it was the day that Franciscans pray for the souls of the deceased members of the Order. It’s a memorial on the Franciscan Calendar.

I looked it up, and an online Franciscan Calendar lists it as “Commemoration of all the Deceased of the Franciscan Orders. Memorial.”

Do some research before you inject secular politics into a liturgical discussion.

 

[MusicMan]

Given the absolute fervor that the priests at EWTN posses for the sanctity of life, I would find them wearing black vestments the day after a pro-choice president is elected to be a logical decision on their part, and if justified by norms (which it sounds like they could justify), perfectly acceptable.

 

[FrDavid96]

Given the absolute fervor that the priests at EWTN posses for the sanctity of life, I would find them wearing black vestments the day after a pro-choice president is elected to be a logical decision on their part, and if justified by norms (which it sounds like they could justify), perfectly acceptable.

Politics aside,
Black is for Masses for the dead. It would not be appropriate to wear black as a “sign of mourning” for something that happened in the political sphere. The color of the vestments depends upon the Mass text (and lit. season) not the “attitude” of the priest and/or congregation. If they wish to express that attitude, then an appropriate Mass should be chosen FIRST and the color follows from that (not the other way around).

On the other hand, a Mass for Peace and Justice, or similar votive Mass might be an act of communal repentance for the sinful acts of government. That’s what the Church in the US recommends on the anniversary of Roe v. Wade, for example, and violet vestments are suggested as a sign of that repentance; specifically because the text is pennitential (we don’t have “peace and justice” because we’ve sinned in allowing human life to be so casually disregarded)

My personal take on things is that the priests who celebrate Mass on EWTN know their stuff. If we saw black vestments, then it was a Mass for the dead. Why they chose a Mass for the dead is open to speculation. We’ve heard some very logical reasons here, and any of them are possible, but I doubt they would have worn a color merely for the sake of making a point.

 

[MusicMan]

Unless it was a Mass for the Dead for the intention of the unborn killed by abortion.

 

[Joannm]

Given the absolute fervor that the priests at EWTN posses for the sanctity of life, I would find them wearing black vestments the day after a pro-choice president is elected to be a logical decision on their part, and if justified by norms (which it sounds like they could justify), perfectly acceptable.

The Mass is not the place to make political statements.

 

[Joannm]

I seem to remember watching the Nov. 5 Mass some years back on EWTN and the priest saying that it was the day that Franciscans pray for the souls of the deceased members of the Order. It’s a memorial on the Franciscan Calendar.

I looked it up, and an online Franciscan Calendar lists it as “Commemoration of all the Deceased of the Franciscan Orders. Memorial.”

Do some research before you inject secular politics into a liturgical discussion.

That makes a lot of sense since the sisters and brothers at EWTN are Franciscans

 

[brigid12]

I seem to remember watching the Nov. 5 Mass some years back on EWTN and the priest saying that it was the day that Franciscans pray for the souls of the deceased members of the Order. It’s a memorial on the Franciscan Calendar.

I looked it up, and an online Franciscan Calendar lists it as “Commemoration of all the Deceased of the Franciscan Orders. Memorial.”

Do some research before you inject secular politics into a liturgical discussion.

This is the reason that I heard on EWTN on this Nov. 5 that the priests wore black in Mass (although I was expecting them to say it was for the dead, unborn).

 

[FrDavid96]

Unless it was a Mass for the Dead for the intention of the unborn killed by abortion.

A Mass “for the dead” is one in which we are asking God to forgive the sins of the departed (that’s not all, but it’s an important element of it). Since the unborn never committed any “actual” sins before they were killed, a Mass for the dead would be inappropriate.

However, there is a Mass for a child who dies before baptism (technically, this is a Mass for the dead, but not in the way described above). These Mass texts do not pray “for” the infant(s), but rather pray for solace for the survivors. I didn’t see it, but I rather doubt that was their intention (especially given the further information we have from others who did see the Mass).

All of that aside, I don’t think that EWTN or the clergy celebrating that Mass would use that opportunity to make a political statement. I just don’t see it. A statement about the immorality of abortion, yes, but a political statement no.

 

[MusicMan]

I guess you learn something new every day.

 

[Church_Militant]

I was an altar boy before Vatican II. My conscience was formed before Vatican II. The last time I saw black used was when my brother and I served for our grandmother’s Requiem Mass in January of 1965. When my great-aunt died in 1973 they used purple. Every other Mass I have attended since then has been white.

I gotta tell y’all that sometimes I feel so old on these forums… I’m 57 (which doesn’t quite feel so old to me). I attend a reverent OF cathedral parish. At my age (given my health conditions and my ancestry) I could go at any time. I am also a product of my time. Black vestments are far more comforting to me. White vestments assume that I died in a State of Grace… That’s a lovely thought but I have a pre-Vatican II conscience - I am a product of Catholic education from 1956 to 1969. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

I understand the symbolism of the white vestments. For me, it is presumptive. Black is the color of mourning. Black is the color of repentance. We are not protestants. We are redeemed not saved. We work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Given the option before I die, I would prefer the black vestments of my grandmother’s funeral. I am no saint that I should claim the white vestments. The Requiem Mass and Ash Wednesday when I was a boy back in the 50’s /60’s “Earth to earth; Ashes to ashes; Dust to dust”. When was the last time any of you heard “Remember man that thou art dust and to dust thou shalt return” on Ash Wednesday?

:hug3:

 

[Church_Militant]

BTW, I was never an altar boy but my younger brother was during that same time and I called him and asked if he remembered and he too said that they wore black. Isn’t there a white part that goes over that cassock?

 

[totustuus2345]

BTW, I was never an altar boy but my younger brother was during that same time and I called him and asked if he remembered and he too said that they wore black. Isn’t there a white part that goes over that cassock?

yes, it is called a surplice, In the Roman Rite that is, I don’t know about the other rites

 

[Church_Militant]

[SIGN]

yes, it is called a surplice, In the Roman Rite that is, I don’t know about the other rites

Yeah! What HE said![/SIGN]

 

[FrDavid96]

yes, it is called a surplice, In the Roman Rite that is, I don’t know about the other rites

Only the Roman usage has the surplice.

The surplice itself is actually just a smaller version of the alb. Essentially, it’s an alb with short arms and a shorter length.

 

[zab]

Black is the proper color for Masses for the dead; in both the Extraordinary and Ordinary form.

The proper colors are black, violet, or white (white is a variation allowed in the US at least). White may also be used at any time if the proper color is unavailable, but that’s just an aside.

.

Our new pastor has worn violet for several funerals since he has been here. This is the first time I recall seeing violet worn at funerals. I have since learned that violet is one of the options and that violet is the normal color for funerals used in Rome since Vatican II, while white has been the color used most often in the United States. Our pastor also wore his black vestments on All Souls Day this year (which was before the election results were known). So it looks like we are having a return to useing black vestments and it has nothing to do with politics.

 

[FrDavid96]

Our new pastor has worn violet for several funerals since he has been here. This is the first time I recall seeing violet worn at funerals. I have since learned that violet is one of the options and that violet is the normal color for funerals used in Rome since Vatican II, while white has been the color used most often in the United States. Our pastor also wore his black vestments on All Souls Day this year (which was before the election results were known). So it looks like we are having a return to useing black vestments and it has nothing to do with politics.

I don’t know this for a fact, but I’ve heard that red is actually the color of mourning in Rome (from a cultural perspecitve). I’m not sure, I’m just saying that’s what I’ve heard. I don’t remember exactly, but was red used at the funeral of JP2? I seem to think that it was a very deep, dark red. Can’t recall. Any help?

 

[zab]

I don’t know this for a fact, but I’ve heard that red is actually the color of mourning in Rome (from a cultural perspecitve). I’m not sure, I’m just saying that’s what I’ve heard. I don’t remember exactly, but was red used at the funeral of JP2? I seem to think that it was a very deep, dark red. Can’t recall. Any help?

Red was the color worn at Pope John Paul II’s funeral and the Pope was clothed in red as well. I read that red “is associated with the feasts of the apostles” and the use of red in this instance (funeral) is reserved for the pope and not to be used outside of that
Read: Why the Body of the Pope was Laid Out in Red Vestments

 

[mercygate]

Yes, we were always taught that black is the proper color in Catholic school. My father is a deacon, so I readily had access to documents showing this growing up, also. However, what makes it interesting for me isn’t that black vestments exist at all, but that they were used since I have never seen them used in the OF in my lifetime, even though they are proper for funerals, All Saints, and requiems (I believe that there is only an indult allowing white to be used in these instances). It just is refreshing because it appears we are reaching a point where the OF and the EF can finally be recognized as interconnected, and not separate from each other.

At our Mass for the Dead at the annual chapter meeting of the Confraternity of Penitents, black vestments are used.