Did Bl. Pius IX really do this?

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puzzleannie said:
still waiting for cite with context which gives his authoritative source for the story, beyond anecdote
since it is not forthcoming I assume it does not exist
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I believe the point that Malphono was trying to make was that Abp. Elias Zoughby WAS a Catholic prelate and therefore this was from a Catholic source.

I would imagine that the person who mentioned him to start with would be the one most likely to have the book Ecumenical Reflections, don’t you?
 
Whether he did or didn’t can one poor decision eradicate so many good ones?
 
Cluny said:
I believe the point that Malphono was trying to make was that Abp. Elias Zoughby WAS a Catholic prelate and therefore this was from a Catholic source.

I would imagine that the person who mentioned him to start with would be the one most likely to have the book Ecumenical Reflections, don’t you?
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Thank you. That is exactly the point I was trying to make. 👍
 
puzzleannie said:
a citation from an Orthodox source is hardly documentation

an entire thread discussion an allegation of a serious nature which by itself is detraction, with not a shred of evidence. I am ashamed
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MAYBE THE GUY DESERVED IT. MAYBE HE WAS A STUBBORN MULE AND WAS ON HIS ROAD TO HELL AND NEEDED A WAKE UP CALL. Jesus called people names (read Luke 11) , physically drove people from the temple, etc. Christianity isnt all about being nice. If you think it is your wrong. This is why at times, God has commanded his people to take up the sword and kill the unjust. Maybe Pius was showing mercy. Ill let God be the judge of the great Blessed Pius IX.
 
Rogerteder said:
MAYBE THE GUY DESERVED IT. MAYBE HE WAS A STUBBORN MULE AND WAS ON HIS ROAD TO HELL AND NEEDED A WAKE UP CALL. Jesus called people names (read Luke 11) , physically drove people from the temple, etc. Christianity isnt all about being nice. If you think it is your wrong. This is why at times, God has commanded his people to take up the sword and kill the unjust. Maybe Pius was showing mercy. Ill let God be the judge of the great Blessed Pius IX.
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If its true, there would be no excuse for stomping on an old man’s neck and insulting him. Jesus may have used harsh language at times, or even driven the money lenders out of the temple, but he never beat up an old man.

Of course, this story seems a little bit to sensationalized to be true.
 
Pope_Noah_I said:
Apparently, at the end of Vatican I, when the Greek Melkite Patriarch Gregory II Youssef advanced to kiss the feet of the Pontiff, His Holiness stepped on the Patriarch’s neck with his full weight, and verbally berated him, calling him “a stubborn mule”. If this is true, well, my respect for Pius decreased.
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This sounds like something the schismatics of the East would make up. Just like they invented the story of Peter the Aleut being “martyred” by Spanish missionaries for not being Catholic.
It’s also well known that among the rites of the East subject to Rome, the Melkites are the most hostile, have the most schismatic mentality and come close to being in schism.
 
I will refuse to believe this until I see evidence to prove that it actually happened.

If this actually happened, I am sure it would have been well documented. What would happen if Pope Benedict XVI did this? The international media would be all over it! Surely, at least one newspaper from the time mentioned the alleged assault on a prelate?
 
Here’s something actually verified:
Catholic Encyclopedia:
Pius IX and Leo XIII tried to reopen official relations with the Greeks, but unsuccessfully. The reply of the Patriarch Anthimus VI to the Encyclical of Pius IX (1848) was far from friendly; the invitation to assist at the Vatican Council the Patriarch Gregory VI refused even to accept. During his long pontificate Leo XIII was unceasing in his efforts to bring back the Greeks to unity, but they remained unmoved, and when, on 20 June, 1894, in the Encyclical “Præclara”, he invited the Greek Church in all charity to recognize the successor of Peter, the answering encyclical from the Patriarch Anthimus VII was remarkable for its rudeness. The present patriarch, Joachim III, opened a purely theoretical consultation with his subjects on the matter a few years ago, but his attempt was not well received.
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Rogerteder said:
MAYBE THE GUY DESERVED IT. MAYBE HE WAS A STUBBORN MULE AND WAS ON HIS ROAD TO HELL AND NEEDED A WAKE UP CALL. Jesus called people names (read Luke 11) , physically drove people from the temple, etc. Christianity isnt all about being nice. If you think it is your wrong. This is why at times, God has commanded his people to take up the sword and kill the unjust. Maybe Pius was showing mercy. Ill let God be the judge of the great Blessed Pius IX.
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AMEN! In my humble opinion, Pope Benedict should be doing this to a few if not several of the bishops nowadays. like Mahoney… (coughMaHeresycough)
 
Aramis said:
HE + Zoughby, a Melkite Greek Catholic Bishop, passed into the arms of the Lord in 2008. He was a tireless Melkite historian and ecumenist, and he did relate the Pope slapping the Patriarch. He probably lacked 1st hand knowledge. Bl Pious passed in 1939; HG Elias was born in 1909, and ordained a priest in 1936.

gcatholic.com/dioceses/diocese/baal0.htm#3299
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pious_XI
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I think you’re confusing Bl. Pius IX with Pius XI. Bl. Pius IX, the subject of this thread, passed in 1878.
 
Rogerteder said:
MAYBE THE GUY DESERVED IT. MAYBE HE WAS A STUBBORN MULE AND WAS ON HIS ROAD TO HELL AND NEEDED A WAKE UP CALL. Jesus called people names (read Luke 11) , physically drove people from the temple, etc. Christianity isnt all about being nice. If you think it is your wrong. This is why at times, God has commanded his people to take up the sword and kill the unjust. Maybe Pius was showing mercy. Ill let God be the judge of the great Blessed Pius IX.
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“**Showing mercy” ? If that is mercy, what is genocide - heroic charity ? Why ever not ? :cool: **​

**But that’s fine - until not being nice comes round to bite those who defend it :cool: . (Some) Protestants take a similar view - they are not often (let’s make that “never”) praised for the love they show to Catholics by behaving badly to them; on the contrary, their bad behaviour is wheeled out as evidence of how unChristian they are :cool: If they aren’t defended by quoting that episode from the gospels, why should Catholics be, or Popes, or a beatified Pope ? Or are we to apply one moral standard to other Christians, a second to us Catholics generally, & a third to beatified Popes ? If so - on what moral basis 😦 ? **

Why should Pius IX be held to a low standard ? A beatified Pope should not behave like a thug: no “average” Christian should either: if he did as stated, it is at least unfortunate that Christians other than he have to be held to account for it. That’s the problem with stuff others do - they may not be held to account for it, but later generations often are, when the “stuff others do” has ceased to look as admirable, or even defensible, as it may have seemed when it was done. 😦
 
Genesis315 said:
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Aramis:
HE + Zoughby, a Melkite Greek Catholic Bishop, passed into the arms of the Lord in 2008. He was a tireless Melkite historian and ecumenist, and he did relate the Pope slapping the Patriarch. He probably lacked 1st hand knowledge. Bl Pious passed in 1939; HG Elias was born in 1909, and ordained a priest in 1936.
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I think you’re confusing Bl. Pius IX with Pius XI. Bl. Pius IX, the subject of this thread, passed in 1878.
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Yes, I believe so. It would have been more than unlikely for PP Pius XI to have made any such gesture. Not quite so unlikely for Pio Nono.
 
I’ve read that Pius IX yelled at the Armenian Catholic Patriarch, and threated to cut off support if he did not vote in favor of infallibility.
 
bpbasilphx said:
I’ve read that Pius IX yelled at the Armenian Catholic Patriarch, and threated to cut off support if he did not vote in favor of infallibility.
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I hadn’t heard that one before, but from what I understand of Pio Nono, it does not seem to be out of character. He was certainly determined (particularly after the Papal States issue heated up).
 
bpbasilphx said:
I’ve read that Pius IX yelled at the Armenian Catholic Patriarch, and threated to cut off support if he did not vote in favor of infallibility.
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I think the “support” was his financial support to be at the Council. As you might know, the Pope financed many of the bishops’ trips to Rome for the Council, and provided for their residence while they were there (why some anti-Catholic pundits consider this a “bribe” I’ll never know).

Also, I believe it was the Propaganda that threatened to cut off financial support, not the Pope himself. The Pope did not know many of the sordid goings on that were occurring from the hands of the extremist proponents of the dogma of infallibility.

It doesn’t make sense that the Pope would want them to vote for infallibility, and then threaten to make it so they couldn’t vote (i.e., not have the means to stay in Rome to vote).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Aramis said:
HE + Zoughby, a Melkite Greek Catholic Bishop, passed into the arms of the Lord in 2008. He was a tireless Melkite historian and ecumenist, and he did relate the Pope slapping the Patriarch. He probably lacked 1st hand knowledge. Bl Pious passed in 1939; HG Elias was born in 1909, and ordained a priest in 1936.

gcatholic.com/dioceses/diocese/baal0.htm#3299
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pious_XI
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Like I stated earlier, I could not find a reference earlier than 1977 (from a German magazine) about this story. That is why I asked when HE Zoghby’s book was published (the one that mentioned the incident). If it was AFTER the article in the German magazine, I am wondering if its possible that all of this could have been started by a rumor!

I have read of a theory that Pio Nono was manic-depressive - eccentric, to say the least. I think it is altogether possible that he verbally abused some bishops. Though I find it hard to believe that he could have been physically violent, as he was himself rather old at the time (by the standards of the 19th century, anyway).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
It doesn’t make sense that the Pope would want them to vote for infallibility, and then threaten to make it so they couldn’t vote (i.e., not have the means to stay in Rome to vote).

If a given bishop could not afford to stay in Rome, he wouldn’t be likely to vote “non placet”, not would he?
 
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