Did church fathers Ignatius, polycarp, ignatius speak of trinitarian baptism?

[Big_Dummy]

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.
newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

google.com/#q=Repent+and+be+baptized,+every+one+of+you,+in+the+name+of+Jesus+Christ++site:http://www.newadvent.org&hl=en&prmd=ivnso&ei=eJwkTtDBJeansQLz9KndBw&start=0&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4f5d99df8e6c9a1d&biw=1024&bih=440

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=Matthew+28:19+addition&aq=0p&aqi=p-p1g4&aql=&oq=Matthe&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4f5d99df8e6c9a1d&biw=1024&bih=468

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=in+the+name+of+the+Father%2C+and+of+the+Son%2C+and+of+the+Holy+Ghost+site:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newadvent.org&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4f5d99df8e6c9a1d&biw=1024&bih=468

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=trinity+site:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newadvent.org&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4f5d99df8e6c9a1d&biw=1024&bih=468

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=oneness+site:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newadvent.org&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4f5d99df8e6c9a1d&biw=1024&bih=468

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=God+one+site:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newadvent.org&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4f5d99df8e6c9a1d&biw=1024&bih=468

Expect him to quote Ignatius, polycarp, ignatius concerning the oneness of God, and maybe he found Acts 2:38 quoted in them too. As Trinitairans, we believe God is One in nature, thus their quotes do not contradict us. Read the Acts 2:38 quotes in context at newadvent.org you will see they don’t support the interpretations he is putting on the biblical text. Jehovah’s Witness’s do this same game with Proverbs 8:22.

We would likely reply by finding texts in the fathers that quotes Matthew 28:19. They will reply that that text was added later like I John 5:7 was. You can at that point go to American Bible Society’s textual comentary to show that Matthew 28:19 is in fact genuine.

Bottom line, he has already made up his mind and he really is not listening or weighing the evidence you present. In fact, I doubt he would even admit the fact that the word “with” in John 1:1 has the meaning of **“face to face” **like Montgomery translates.
forananswer.org/John/Jn1_1.htm
forananswer.org/ABC_Index.htm
christiandefense.com/oneness.htm
christiandefense.org/Article_church%20history%20Oneness.htm
spotlightministries.org.uk/oneness.htm

BTW, your best approach is to demonstrate the pre-existence of the second person of the trinity before his incarnation.

Boyd, G.A. Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1992.

Brumback, C. God in Three Persons. Cleveland: Pathaway Press, 1959.

Edward Dalcour’s, A Definitive Look at Oneness Theology: In the Light of Biblical Trinitarianism
christiandefense.org/Reviews.htm
books.google.com/books?id=MFh3Nqdg7soC&pg=PA35&dq=oneness+pentecostalism+refuted&hl=en&ei=HqEkTtaJKYyFsgKUpbjKAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
spiritualabuse.org/books/oneness.html
thriceholy.net/earlychurch.html
wn.com/Oneness_Pentecostalism
exchangedlife.com/Sermons/topical/trinity.shtml
apologeticsindex.org/o00.html

Christianity Without the Cross: A History of Salvation in Oneness Pentecostalism By Thomas A. Fudge
books.google.com/books?id=GmztAtSwxMkC&pg=PA73&dq=oneness+pentecostalism+refuted&hl=en&ei=HqEkTtaJKYyFsgKUpbjKAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[joclucsylv]

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.
newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

google.com/#q=Repent+and+be+baptized,+every+one+of+you,+in+the+name+of+Jesus+Christ++site:http://www.newadvent.org&hl=en&prmd=ivnso&ei=eJwkTtDBJeansQLz9KndBw&start=0&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4f5d99df8e6c9a1d&biw=1024&bih=440

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=Matthew+28:19+addition&aq=0p&aqi=p-p1g4&aql=&oq=Matthe&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4f5d99df8e6c9a1d&biw=1024&bih=468

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=in+the+name+of+the+Father%2C+and+of+the+Son%2C+and+of+the+Holy+Ghost+site:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newadvent.org&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4f5d99df8e6c9a1d&biw=1024&bih=468

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=trinity+site:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newadvent.org&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4f5d99df8e6c9a1d&biw=1024&bih=468

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=oneness+site:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newadvent.org&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4f5d99df8e6c9a1d&biw=1024&bih=468

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=God+one+site:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newadvent.org&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4f5d99df8e6c9a1d&biw=1024&bih=468

Expect him to quote Ignatius, polycarp, ignatius concerning the oneness of God, and maybe he found Acts 2:38 quoted in them too. As Trinitairans, we believe God is One in nature, thus their quotes do not contradict us. Read the Acts 2:38 quotes in context at newadvent.org you will see they don’t support the interpretations he is putting on the biblical text. Jehovah’s Witness’s do this same game with Proverbs 8:22.

We would likely reply by finding texts in the fathers that quotes Matthew 28:19. They will reply that that text was added later like I John 5:7 was. You can at that point go to American Bible Society’s textual comentary to show that Matthew 28:19 is in fact genuine.

Bottom line, he has already made up his mind and he really is not listening or weighing the evidence you present. In fact, I doubt he would even admit the fact that the word “with” in John 1:1 has the meaning of **“face to face” **like Montgomery translates.
forananswer.org/John/Jn1_1.htm
forananswer.org/ABC_Index.htm
christiandefense.com/oneness.htm
christiandefense.org/Article_church%20history%20Oneness.htm
spotlightministries.org.uk/oneness.htm

BTW, your best approach is to demonstrate the pre-existence of the second person of the trinity before his incarnation.

Boyd, G.A. Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1992.

Brumback, C. God in Three Persons. Cleveland: Pathaway Press, 1959.

Edward Dalcour’s, A Definitive Look at Oneness Theology: In the Light of Biblical Trinitarianism
christiandefense.org/Reviews.htm
books.google.com/books?id=MFh3Nqdg7soC&pg=PA35&dq=oneness+pentecostalism+refuted&hl=en&ei=HqEkTtaJKYyFsgKUpbjKAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
spiritualabuse.org/books/oneness.html
thriceholy.net/earlychurch.html
wn.com/Oneness_Pentecostalism
exchangedlife.com/Sermons/topical/trinity.shtml
apologeticsindex.org/o00.html

Christianity Without the Cross: A History of Salvation in Oneness Pentecostalism By Thomas A. Fudge
books.google.com/books?id=GmztAtSwxMkC&pg=PA73&dq=oneness+pentecostalism+refuted&hl=en&ei=HqEkTtaJKYyFsgKUpbjKAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Thank you! How do i demonstrate the second person in the trinity before incarnation. Forgive me…I am learning.

 

[joclucsylv]

Big Dummy…this is what he wrote to me.

Greetings in the lovely name of Jesus the Lord of us both. I have considered the “time line” you have presernted. In fact I have studies them for years. This has been my life’s work. So I am very familiar with them. Permit me …to respectfully disagree with your assumption that the line of RC succession makes it to the apostles of our Lord. In time I will show, not that you will accept, but I will show that the trinitarian line of succession can reach back no further than the ANTI-Nicene Fathers(wich would include Tertullian, Hippolytus, etc.) The writings of the Apostolic Fathers (Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement, the Shepherd of Hermas) do not have a hint of trinitarian thought; in fact the opposit is true. It is my hope that you will prayerfully consider my posts concerning the Jesus name baptism and let me know your thoughts on the matter.

HELP!!!

 

[Big_Dummy]

theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Contents.htm

Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that wills all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the region of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, which I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father: to those who are united, both according to the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments; who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, * abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God.

newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm

1. Let us therefore, brethren beloved, pray as God our Teacher has taught us. It is a loving and friendly prayer to beseech God with His own word, to come up to His ears in the prayer of Christ. Let the Father acknowledge the words of His Son when we make our prayer, and let Him also who dwells within in our breast Himself dwell in our voice. And since we have Him as an Advocate with the Father for our sins, let us, when as sinners we petition on behalf of our sins, put forward the words of our Advocate. For since He says, that “whatsoever we shall ask of the Father in His name, He will give us,” John 16:23 how much more effectually do we obtain what we ask in Christ’s name, if we ask for it in His own prayer!
   newadvent.org/fathers/050704.htm
2. Certainly, since I found in the letter the copy of which you transmitted to me, that it was written, “That it should not be asked who baptized, since he who is baptized might receive remission of sins according to what he believed,” I thought that this topic was not to be passed by, especially since I observed in the same epistle that mention was also made of Marcion, saying that “even those that came from him did not need to be baptized, because they seemed to have been already baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.” Therefore we ought to consider their faith who believe without, whether in respect of the same faith they can obtain any grace. For if we and heretics have one faith, we may also have one grace. If the Patripassians, Anthropians, Valentinians, Apelletians, Ophites, Marcionites, and other pests, and swords, and poisons of heretics for subverting the truth, confess the same Father, the same Son, the same Holy Ghost, the same Church with us, they may also have one baptism if they have also one faith.
3. And lest it should be wearisome to go through all the heresies, and to enumerate either the follies or the madness of each of them, because it is no pleasure to speak of that which one either dreads or is ashamed to know, let us examine in the meantime about Marcion alone, the mention of whom has been made in the letter transmitted by you to us, whether the ground of his baptism can be made good. For the Lord after His resurrection, sending His disciples, instructed and taught them in what manner they ought to baptize, saying, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” **He suggests the Trinity, in whose sacrament the nations were to be baptized. Does Marcion then maintain the Trinity? Does he then assert the same Father, the Creator, as we do? **Does he know the same Son, Christ born of the Virgin Mary, who as the Word was made flesh, who bare our sins, who conquered death by dying, who by Himself first of all originated the resurrection of the flesh, and showed to His disciples that He had risen in the same flesh? Widely different is the faith with Marcion, and, moreover, with the other heretics nay, with them there is nothing but perfidy, and blasphemy, and contention, which is hostile to holiness and truth. How then can one who is baptized among them seem to have obtained mission of sins, and the grace of the divine mercy, by his faith, when he has not the truth of the faith itself? For if, as some suppose, one could receive anything abroad out of the Church according to his faith, certainly he has received what he believed; but if he believes what is false, he could not receive what is true; but rather he has received things adulterous and profane, according to what he believed.

newadvent.org/fathers/050672.htm*

 

[SonCatcher]

This is what Oneness man is telling me. That trinity is a heresy and that people were baptizing in Jesus name from the beginning. Did Ignatius, Polycarp and Clement write on trinity. If so…can someone point out the source. Thank you!!

So…if trinity ws only understook in fourth centruy, were people baptizing in name of Jesus or in trinity

Then he should easily be able to find some contemporary writings condemning the council of Nicea on those grounds.

The Trinitarian formula certainly went back to the beginning since it is recorded in Scripture directly. DOES HE HAVE CREDIBLE EVIDENCE THAT MATTHEW WAS CHANGED? If not then he cannot deny that the Trinitarian formula was used.

Ha Ha…funny you ask. He is a self proclaimed bishop in the oneness faith.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 3:1-5[/BIBLEDRB]
St. Paul pretty well explains that anyone aspiring to be a bishop must be approved by one (Timothy being the bishop doing the approving in this case).

Just read your last post. Tertullian and Hippolytus could not have been ANTI-Nicene (meaning against) because they were ANTE-Nicene (meaning before).

Again, ask him to produce a contemporary (meaning one from the 4th century) condemnation of the Council of Nicea on the grounds of the Trinity.

 

[joclucsylv]

theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Contents.htm

Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that wills all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the region of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, which I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father: to those who are united, both according to the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments; who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, * abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God.

newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm*

1. Let us therefore, brethren beloved, pray as God our Teacher has taught us. It is a loving and friendly prayer to beseech God with His own word, to come up to His ears in the prayer of Christ. Let the Father acknowledge the words of His Son when we make our prayer, and let Him also who dwells within in our breast Himself dwell in our voice. And since we have Him as an Advocate with the Father for our sins, let us, when as sinners we petition on behalf of our sins, put forward the words of our Advocate. For since He says, that “whatsoever we shall ask of the Father in His name, He will give us,” John 16:23 how much more effectually do we obtain what we ask in Christ’s name, if we ask for it in His own prayer!
   newadvent.org/fathers/050704.htm
2. Certainly, since I found in the letter the copy of which you transmitted to me, that it was written, “That it should not be asked who baptized, since he who is baptized might receive remission of sins according to what he believed,” I thought that this topic was not to be passed by, especially since I observed in the same epistle that mention was also made of Marcion, saying that “even those that came from him did not need to be baptized, because they seemed to have been already baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.” Therefore we ought to consider their faith who believe without, whether in respect of the same faith they can obtain any grace. For if we and heretics have one faith, we may also have one grace. If the Patripassians, Anthropians, Valentinians, Apelletians, Ophites, Marcionites, and other pests, and swords, and poisons of heretics for subverting the truth, confess the same Father, the same Son, the same Holy Ghost, the same Church with us, they may also have one baptism if they have also one faith.
3. And lest it should be wearisome to go through all the heresies, and to enumerate either the follies or the madness of each of them, because it is no pleasure to speak of that which one either dreads or is ashamed to know, let us examine in the meantime about Marcion alone, the mention of whom has been made in the letter transmitted by you to us, whether the ground of his baptism can be made good. For the Lord after His resurrection, sending His disciples, instructed and taught them in what manner they ought to baptize, saying, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” **He suggests the Trinity, in whose sacrament the nations were to be baptized. Does Marcion then maintain the Trinity? Does he then assert the same Father, the Creator, as we do? **Does he know the same Son, Christ born of the Virgin Mary, who as the Word was made flesh, who bare our sins, who conquered death by dying, who by Himself first of all originated the resurrection of the flesh, and showed to His disciples that He had risen in the same flesh? Widely different is the faith with Marcion, and, moreover, with the other heretics nay, with them there is nothing but perfidy, and blasphemy, and contention, which is hostile to holiness and truth. How then can one who is baptized among them seem to have obtained mission of sins, and the grace of the divine mercy, by his faith, when he has not the truth of the faith itself? For if, as some suppose, one could receive anything abroad out of the Church according to his faith, certainly he has received what he believed; but if he believes what is false, he could not receive what is true; but rather he has received things adulterous and profane, according to what he believed.

newadvent.org/fathers/050672.htm

Big Dummy…

I am the Big Dummy because I need you to put 4 and 5 in layman’s terms for me. That is why I don’t read scripture. I don’t understand it. I consider myself a smart girl too!!

 

[Big_Dummy]

The church of God which sojourns at Rome, to the church of God sojourning at Corinth, to them that are called and sanctified by the will of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, from Almighty God through Jesus Christ, be multiplied.

…

Chapter 16. Christ as an Example of Humility.
For Christ is of those who are humble-minded, and not of those who exalt themselves over His flock. Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Sceptre of the majesty of God, did not come in the pomp of pride or arrogance, although He might have done so, but in a lowly condition, as the Holy Spirit had declared regarding Him.
newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

But our Instructor is the holy God Jesus, the Word, who is the guide of all humanity. The loving God Himself is our Instructor. **Somewhere in song the Holy Spirit says **with regard to Him, “He provided sufficiently for the people in the wilderness. He led him about in the thirst of summer heat in a dry land, and instructed him, and kept him as the apple of His eye, as an eagle protects her nest, and shows her fond solicitude for her young, spreads abroad her wings, takes them, and bears them on her back. The Lord alone led them, and there was no strange god with them.” Deuteronomy 32:10-12 Clearly, I trow, has the Scripture exhibited the Instructor in the account it gives of His guidance.

newadvent.org/fathers/02091.htm

For it is said there is great and exceeding joy and festival in the heavens with the Father and the angels when one sinner turns and repents. Luke 15:10 Wherefore also He cries, “I will have mercy, and not sacrifice.” Hosea 6:6; Matthew 9:13 “I desire not the death, but the repentance of the sinner.” Ezekiel 18:23 “Though your sins be as scarlet wool, I will make them white as snow; though they be blacker than darkness, I will wash and make them like white wool.” Isaiah 1:18 For it is in the power of God alone to grant the forgiveness of sins, and not to impute transgressions; since also the Lord commands us each day to forgive the repenting brethren. Matthew 6:14 “And if we, being evil, know to give good gifts,” Luke 11:13 much more is it the nature of the Father of mercies, the good Father of all consolation, much pitying, very merciful, to be long-suffering, to wait for those who have turned. And to turn is really to cease from our sins, and to look no longer behind.

newadvent.org/fathers/0207.htm note father is in heaven

 

[joclucsylv]

According to the Corunum Website, the Didache used the Trinitarian formula. The Didache was probably written as early as the 60’s AD, but maybe as late as 140AD or so.

Thank you! I used this quote. I wonder if he will say the didache was a pagan writing lol!!! I expect anything from him

 

[Big_Dummy]

Big Dummy…

I am the Big Dummy because I need you to put 4 and 5 in layman’s terms for me. That is why I don’t read scripture. I don’t understand it. I consider myself a smart girl too!!

Concerning Scripture, may I suggest you pick up an audio bible? The Gospels And Letters in the New Testament were read to the Church.

Marcion from 4 is a hertic who baptizes “in Jesus Name” as does oneness people. This may be one of the texts he will use because one of their historians identifies Marcion as being Jesus Only. But, the Father writing here points out in 5 that Marcion does not believe in the Trinity.

google.com/#hl=en&pwst=1&sa=X&ei=57UkTsOnO_LJsQLs0Yz3Cg&ved=0CBgQvwUoAQ&q=heretic+Marcion&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4f5d99df8e6c9a1d&biw=1024&bih=468

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=champions+of+Oneness+Marcion&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4f5d99df8e6c9a1d&biw=1024&bih=468

To refute United Pentecostal Church Oneness, Jesus Only Theology you need only show that Jesus as the Second person of the Trinity had a pre-existence with the Father before coming via Mary to earth(known as the incarnation). And, secondly, show interactions or “thee thou” relationships — this is where “face to face” of John 1:1 comes in.

 

[SonCatcher]

Big Dummy…

I am the Big Dummy because I need you to put 4 and 5 in layman’s terms for me. That is why I don’t read scripture. I don’t understand it. I consider myself a smart girl too!!

4 and 5 are from Jubaianus, an ante-Nicene Father. Thanks, Big Dummy for providing.

Jubaianus was discussing the validity of baptisms performed by heretical sects. In doing so, he expressly discusses the Trinitarian formula as the one used and also uses the term “Trinity.” In short, he seems to be denying the validity of heretical baptisms. (similar to how we deny the validity of Mormon baptism today Though they use the Trinitarian formula, they lack valid intent.)

This writing is a direct refutation of the Oneness assertion that Trinity was somehow created with Nicea.

You don’t have to be famous (Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement) to be considered a Church Father. If your Oneness minister insists otherwise, feel free to use his own criterion against him (for purpose of illustration): Since he lacks the notoriety of Billy Graham, he must not be a valid source of theology in our day.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Thank you! I used this quote. I wonder if he will say the didache was a pagan writing lol!!! I expect anything from him

I think most recent scholarship puts the Didache as we have it today as being compiled around 1054. But, it is made up of 3 or 4 documents. And, the Baptism part dates to around 90 to 110 AD. You will find that most pentecostals will not know this.

 

[joclucsylv]

Then he should easily be able to find some contemporary writings condemning the council of Nicea on those grounds.

The Trinitarian formula certainly went back to the beginning since it is recorded in Scripture directly. DOES HE HAVE CREDIBLE EVIDENCE THAT MATTHEW WAS CHANGED? If not then he cannot deny that the Trinitarian formula was used.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 3:1-5[/BIBLEDRB]
St. Paul pretty well explains that anyone aspiring to be a bishop must be approved by one (Timothy being the bishop doing the approving in this case).

Just read your last post. Tertullian and Hippolytus could not have been ANTI-Nicene (meaning against) because they were ANTE-Nicene (meaning before).

Again, ask him to produce a contemporary (meaning one from the 4th century) condemnation of the Council of Nicea on the grounds of the Trinity.

They completely twist Mathew 28 in a way I can’t understand. Crazy…I know

 

[SonCatcher]

They completely twist Mathew 28 in a way I can’t understand. Crazy…I know

Sounds like an occult practice, actually. I’m sure they won’t care for the comparison but it seems adequate at the moment.

Teaching should make something easier to understand, not more difficult.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Another trick I have seen them try on Matthew 28:19 and it sounds like that is what he is doing here. He says the word “name” is singluar therefore all three names are relating to one person. What he fails to do is create a proper English sentence diagram. And, he is reading his theology into the text. He may try to make it more complicated by misapplying the Granville Sharp rule which any first year Greek student will know it simply does not apply – basically, he would just be BSing.

Matthew 28:19 (Douay Rheims)
19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Going therefore, teach ye all nations;

 baptizing them in the name 

             *of the* Father, **and ** 
             *of the* Son, **and** 
             *of the* Holy Ghost.

The use of “of the” applies name to each individually. If the translator were to put this in long hand English, it would read something like,

baptizing them in the name of the Father and in the name of the Son and in the name of the Holy Ghost — this would be poor English because it unnecessary repeats “name of the” when ‘of the’ is enough.

This is one of those you may want to visit your fifth grade English Teacher about.

Another example of reading their theology into the text is John 10:30 “I am the Father are one” He will likely read this as “I am the Father is one person”. Greek Scholars plainly understand from grammar and context that this text refers to one in nature.

expect him to quote Isaish 9:6 to prove that Jesus is the Father.

In Hebrew, the phrase their “everlasting Father” is better translated as “father of eternity” meaning God is the first cause or source of eternity. Some, hebrew scholars take it to mean simply that God is eternal. So, from this phrase we learn that God is the creator of even eternity, that he by his very nature is eternal and that he is the source of all things.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Chapter 7. Ignatius appears in a vision after his death
Now these things took place on the thirteenth day before the Kalends of January, that is, on the twentieth of December, Sura and Senecio being then the consuls of the Romans for the second time. Having ourselves been eye-witnesses of these things, and having spent the whole night in tears within the house, and having entreated the Lord, with bended knees and much prayer, that He would give us weak men full assurance respecting the things which were done, it came to pass, on our falling into a brief slumber, that some of us saw the blessed Ignatius suddenly standing by us and embracing us, while others beheld him again praying for us, and others still saw him dropping with sweat, as if he had just come from his great labour, and standing by the Lord. When, therefore, we had with great joy witnessed these things, and had compared our several visions together, we sang praise to God, the giver of all good things, and expressed our sense of the happiness of the holy [martyr]; and now we have made known to you both the day and the time [when these things happened], that, assembling ourselves together according to the time of his martyrdom, we may have fellowship with the champion and noble martyr of Christ, who trod under foot the devil, and perfected the course which, out of love to Christ, he had desired, in Christ Jesus our Lord; by whom, and with whom, be glory and power to the Father, with the Holy Spirit, for evermore! Amen.

newadvent.org/fathers/0123.htm

Chapter 3. Honour your youthful bishop
Now it becomes you also not to treat your bishop too familiarly on account of his youth, but to yield him all reverence, having respect to the power of God the Father, as I have known even holy presbyters do, not judging rashly, from the manifest youthful appearance [of their bishop], but as being themselves prudent in God, submitting to him, or rather not to him, but to the Father of Jesus Christ, the bishop of us all. It is therefore fitting that you should, after no hypocritical fashion, obey [your bishop], in honour of Him who has willed us [so to do], since he that does not so deceives not [by such conduct] the bishop that is visible, but seeks to mock Him that is invisible. And all such conduct has reference not to man, but to God, who knows all secrets.

newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm

Greeting
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fullness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.

…

Chapter 5. The praise of unity
For if I in this brief space of time, have enjoyed such fellowship with your bishop — I mean not of a mere human, but of a spiritual nature— how much more do I reckon you happy who are so joined to him as the Church is to Jesus Christ, and as Jesus Christ is to the Father, that so all things may agree in unity! Let no man deceive himself: if any one be not within the altar, he is deprived of the bread of God. For if the prayer of one or two possesses Matthew 18:19 such power, how much more that of the bishop and the whole Church! He, therefore, that does not assemble with the Church, has even by this manifested his pride, and condemned himself. For it is written, “God resists the proud.” Let us be careful, then, not to set ourselves in opposition to the bishop, in order that we may be
newadvent.org/fathers/0104.htm

Greeting
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, which is at Philadelphia, in Asia, which has obtained mercy, and is established in the harmony of God, and rejoices unceasingly in the passion of our Lord, and is filled with all mercy through his resurrection; which I salute in the blood of Jesus Christ, who is our eternal and enduring joy, especially if [men] are in unity with the bishop, the presbyters, and the deacons, who have been appointed according to the mind of Jesus Christ, whom He has established in security, after His own will, and by His Holy Spirit.

newadvent.org/fathers/0108.htm

Greeting
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to Polycarp, Bishop of the Church of the Smyrnæans, or rather, who has, as his own bishop, God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ: [wishes] abundance of happiness.

newadvent.org/fathers/0110.htm

 

[Big_Dummy]

Chapter 1. Thanks to God for your faith
I Glorify God, even Jesus Christ, who has given you such wisdom. For I have observed that you are perfected in an immoveable faith, as if you were nailed to the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, both in the flesh and in the spirit, and are established in love through the blood of Christ, being fully persuaded with respect to our Lord, that He was truly of the seed of David according to the flesh, Romans 1:3 and the Son of God according to the will and power of God; that He was truly born of a virgin, was baptized by John, in order that all righteousness might be fulfilled Matthew 3:15 by Him; and was truly, under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch, nailed [to the cross] for us in His flesh. Of this fruit we are by His divinely-blessed passion, that He might set up a standard Isaiah 5:26, Isaiah 49:22 for all ages, through His resurrection, to all His holy and faithful [followers], whether among Jews or Gentiles, in the one body of His Church.

newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm

Commentary on the Apostles’ Creed
newadvent.org/fathers/2711.htm

Chapter 61. Christian baptism
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” John 3:5 Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, says the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if you refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.” Isaiah 1:16-20

newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

Chapter 6. Names of God and of Christ, their meaning and power
But to the Father of all, who is unbegotten there is no name given. For by whatever name He be called, He has as His elder the person who gives Him the name. But these words Father, and God, and Creator, and Lord, and Master, are not names, but appellations derived from His good deeds and functions. And His Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word who also was with Him and was begotten before the works, when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and God’s ordering all things through Him; this name itself also containing an unknown significance; as also the appellation “God” is not a name, but an opinion implanted in the nature of men of a thing that can hardly be explained. But “Jesus,” His name as man and Saviour, has also significance. For He was made man also, as we before said, having been conceived according to the will of God the Father, for the sake of believing men, and for the destruction of the demons. And now you can learn this from what is under your own observation. For numberless demoniacs throughout the whole world, and in your city, many of our Christian men exorcising them in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, have healed and do heal, rendering helpless and driving the possessing devils out of the men, though they could not be cured by all the other exorcists, and those who used incantations and drugs.

newadvent.org/fathers/0127.htm

 

[Big_Dummy]

Chapter 56. God who appeared to Moses is distinguished from God the Father
newadvent.org/fathers/01285.htm

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 5:37
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Short Answer, there are many texts in scripture that says people “saw God” and lived. I believe they say the Son of God, whom we now know as Jesus. In Jesus Only theology, Jesus is the Father — these facts creates a contradiction for them.

 

[Big_Dummy]

expect him to quote Jesus “if you seen me you have seen the Father”. Well think about this if someone saw your children, would they not have a good idea what you look like?

Greeting
The Church of God which sojourns at Smyrna, to the Church of God sojourning in Philomelium, and to all the congregations of the Holy and Catholic Church in every place: Mercy, peace, and love from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, be multiplied.

newadvent.org/fathers/0102.htm

1. My faith, indeed, was sufficiently proved when the heretics persecuted me. I was at that time sojourning in the church of Alexandria, and underwent imprisonment and exile which was then the penalty of faithfulness; yet for the sake of any who may wish to put my faith to the test, or to hear and learn what it is I will declare it. **I believe that the Trinity is of one nature and godhead, of one and the same power and substance; so that between the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost there is no diversity at all, except that the one is the Father, the second the Son, and the third the Holy Ghost. There is a Trinity of real and living Persons, a unity of nature and substance.**3. I also confess that the Son of God has in these last days been born of the Virgin and the Holy Spirit: that he has taken upon him our natural human flesh and soul; that in this he suffered and was buried and rose again from the dead; that the flesh in which he rose was that same flesh which had been laid in the sepulchre; and that in this same flesh, together with the soul, he ascended into heaven after his resurrection: from whence we look for his coming to judge the quick and the dead.

newadvent.org/fathers/2709.htm

Anyone know the date of this Rufinus ???

 

[Big_Dummy]

Sounds like an occult practice, actually. I’m sure they won’t care for the comparison but it seems adequate at the moment.

Teaching should make something easier to understand, not more difficult.

lol, well they do in their history rewrites claim gnostics as being their people.

 

[RobbyS]

It actually took some time for the Church to grasp the doctrine of the Trinity. All 3 of the Fathers cited lived in the first 2 centuries. The Trinity, however, was not sufficiently understood to proclaim as doctrine until the 4th century.

The teachings were all there but it took some time to understand their meaning in sufficient depth. God is infinite. It would literally take all of humanity all of time devoted to the subject to even scratch the surface of His nature. The only reason they could extract such a deep meaning so quickly (300 years) is because they had the Holy Spirit leading them. Until then, they were still discovering who God is (indeed, we still are) so misconceptions and incomplete ones were understandable.

Certainly, Ignatius, Clement and Polycarp assisted in developing the doctrine of the Trinity though they themselves never came to understand it.

The doctrine of the Trinity was not defined until the 4th century, defined in terms that rule out the Christology of Arian and others before him. A bit like how Einstein’s relativity theory ruled out Newton’s theory of space and time. Given that the Trinity is a mystery, however, no human language can explain exactly what it means. The Councils gave formulae, however, that rule out certain expressions as misleading. To have accepted Arianism would have led to the same place as modern unitarianism, to regard the traditional Christ as a mythical figure.