Did church fathers Ignatius, polycarp, ignatius speak of trinitarian baptism?

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joclucsylv said:
The New Catholic Encyclopedia’s Testimony

(The New Catholic Encyclopedia is a multi-volume reference work on Roman Catholic history and belief edited by the faculty of The Catholic University of America and originally published by McGraw-Hill in 1967. ** … ** It was awarded Library Journals Best Reference Source 2003. The New Catholic Encyclopedia is intended to be a standard reference work for students, teachers, librarians, journalists, and general readers interested in the history, doctrine, practices, and people of the Catholic faith.)

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective***.***”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

Apostolically Speaking

Bishop Jerry Hayes TM
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This is a dishonest borrowing from the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Watchtower document, booklet called “Should You Believe in the Trinity” and he leaves out the rest of the last sentence in his quote.
Now proceed to the balance of the Watchtower quote which actually ends not with a period but a semi-colon and continue reading.
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"among the 2nd- century Apologists, little more than a focusing of the problem as that of plurality within the unique Godhead."
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searchingthescriptures.net/main_pages/answering_cults/jehovahs%20witnesses/examining-should_you_believe_in_the_trinity.htm

Here is the source itself,
Satanic quote, look what they left out! Again they confuse elemental trinity as taught by the apostles and 4th century trinity as taught by the creeds.
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“Question of Continuity and Elemental Trinitarianism: From what has been seen thus far, the impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true; but it implies an extremely strict interpretation of the key words Trinitarian and dogma. Triadic Consciousness in the Primitive Revelation. The formulation “one God in three Persons” was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective; among the 2d-century Apologists, little more than a focusing of the problem as that of plurality within the unique Godhead. … From the vocabulary and grammar of the Greek original, the intention of the hagiographer to communicate singleness of essence in three distinct Persons was easily derived. … If it is clear on one side that the dogma of the Trinity in the stricter sense of the word was a late arrival, product of 3 centuries’ reflection and debate, it is just as clear on the opposite side that confession of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-and hence an elemental Trinitarianism-went back to the period of Christian origins.”
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bible.ca/trinity/trinity-JW-SYBTT-Watchtower-BOOKLET-Should-You-Believe-the-Trinity-EXPOSED-REFUTED-pagan-section.htm (follow this link for highlighting).

4witness.org/jwysbt/ysbt_contents.php

Since he uses watchtower quotes, I recommend you purchase this documentation,
YES, YOU SHOULD BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY!!!—A Page-by-Page Response To The Watchtower Society’s Brochure: “Should You Believe in the Trinity?”
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Author Christina R Harvey; Over 100 pages of high quality photocopies PROVING THE DECEPTION of the Watchtower Organization in their Trinity brochure; Page by page response to Watchtower arguments on the orgin and history of the doctrine and a thorough analysis of proof texts used for and against the doctrine. This book is sold only in the English edition.
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4witness.org/witnesses-for-jesus-bookstore-and-order-form/jw-bookstore.php#bj_ysbt

note Muslims also use this source too, google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=esqb,ratio&xhr=t&q=The%20formulation%20%E2%80%98one%20God%20in%20three%20Persons%E2%80%99%20was%20not%20solidly&cp=47&qe=VGhlIGZvcm11bGF0aW9uIBhvbmUgR29kIGluIHRocmVlIFBlcnNvbnMZIHdhcyA&qesig=I8iitQwyhJoU7b03kd-N1g&pkc=AFgZ2tkxxoSbBVofW9wsu2ym5LrL0lgf03LV0NRDRmCJUQ-z-wGCg0-fy0TUNu_oYc9cSeEVJzt_CmMVkrF2A0cZf5mFROomwQ&pq=watchtower%20misquotes&pf=p&sclient=psy&source=hp&aq=0p&aqi=p-p1&aql=&oq=The+formulation+%E2%80%98one+God+in+three+Persons%E2%80%99+was+&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=1009376907e884e3&biw=1024&bih=524
 
joclucsylv said:
Protestant Professor Adolf Harnack’s Testimony

Protestant Professor Harnack also confessed that God’s Modalistic Monarchianism was in the vast majority before the Nicene Council. Harnack says, “The real dangerous opponent of the Logos Christology in the period between AD 180 and 300 was not Adoptianism, but the doctrine which saw the Deity Himself incarnate in Christ, and conceived Christ to be God in a human body, the Father becoming flesh… Hippolytus tells us in the Philosophumena, that at that time the Monarchian controversy agitated the whole [Catholic] Church, and Tertullian and Origen testified, that in their day the ‘economic’ trinity, and the technical application of the conception of the Logos to Christ, were regarded by the mass of Christians with suspicion. Modalism, as we now know from the Philosophumena, was**…** the official teaching in Rome… The Modalistic doctrine which sought to exclude every other… was embraced by the great majority of all Christians” before and after the Nicene Council. History Of Dogma, Harnack, vol 3, pp 51- 54.

The International Standard Bible Encylopaedia’s Testimony

The International Standard Bible Encylopaedia also declared that the apostolic Modalistic Monarchian doctrine was in the majority in the 3rd and 4th centuries. It stated, “Monarchianism, identified the Father, Son, and Spirit so completely that they were thought of only as different aspects or different moments in the life of the one Divine Person, called now Father, now Son, now Spirit, as His several activities came successively into view, almost succeeded in establishing itself in the 3rd century as the doctrine of the church at large…. In the early years of the 4th century, the Logos-Christology, in opposition to dominant Sabellian tendencies, ran to seed in what is known as Arianism….” International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Heading “Trinity” section 22.
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These are also watchtower, jehovah’s witnesses misquotes,

You can read Harnack here to see what he really said, in context,
google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=tells+us+in+the+Philosophumena%2C+that+at+that+time+the+Monarchian+controversy+agitated+the&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=1009376907e884e3&biw=1024&bih=524

The ISBE is online too
google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=international+standard+bible+encyclopedia&aq=0&aqi=g5&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=1009376907e884e3&biw=1024&bih=524

bible.ca/trinity/trinity-JW-SYBTT-Watchtower-BOOKLET-Should-You-Believe-the-Trinity-EXPOSED-REFUTED-pagan-section.htm
bible.ca/trinity/trinity-JW-SYBTT-Watchtower-BOOKLET-Should-You-Believe-the-Trinity-EXPOSED-REFUTED-bible-section.htm
google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=esqb,ratio&xhr=t&q=misquotes%20%20watchtower%20Harnack&cp=10&qe=bWlzcXVvdGVzICB3YXRjaHRvd2VyIEhhcm5hY2s&qesig=YTynWpVB2-wiVM6Tzss6nQ&pkc=AFgZ2tlbl_DSxNWtMaWTh84AXA59NFAIets2UzJog3FTGNd7ClGFQ_Ko0WYulbIsfssn1owKi1fiLWTsqhZhmj0YMvxddJvMTw&pq=scholastic%20dishonesty%20watchtower&pf=p&sclient=psy&source=hp&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=misquotes++watchtower+Harnack&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=1009376907e884e3&biw=1024&bih=496
 
google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=watchtower+misquotes+by+author&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=1009376907e884e3&biw=1024&bih=524

chomikuj.pl/Watchtower-files/Opracowania±+jc499zyk+angielski/The+Scholastic+Dishonesty+of+the+Watchtower±+Michael+Van+Buskirk,16154171.pdf

home.comcast.net/~docbob1/misquotes.htm

chomikuj.pl/Watchtower-files/Opracowania±+jc499zyk+angielski/The+Scholastic+Dishonesty+of+the+Watchtower±+Michael+Van+Buskirk,16154171.pdf

OUTLINES OF THE HISTORY OF DOGMA, by Adolf Harnack

The Society cites Adolf Harnack as another authority in support of their claims. However, the Society fails to mention that Harnack was a strong liberal whose appointment as professor at Berlin from 1889-1921 “was challenged by the church because of Harnack’s doubts about the authorship of the fourth gospel and other NT books, his unorthodox interpretations of biblical miracles including the Resurrection and his denial of Christ’s institution of baptism (see his History of Dogma, 7 vols., 1894-99).”—New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, 1978, p. 452

4witness.org/jwysbt/ysbt_ch3.php

His sources are quotes from Jehovah’s Witnesses and Muslims, usually out of context and quotes from liberals, Unitarians, and from other cultists. This is a person I would not consider to be creditable concerning his use of sources.

If you purchase that packet in an eariler post, you will get photocopies of most of the pages that pastor misquotes. This would be good to show your brother.

The fact that he is scaping the bottom of the barrel, simply lets you know what lengths he will go to hold on his false theology.
 
OP-

The best course of action, sadly, is not addressing the theological issues (since his mind all mixed up and set in concrete) but old-fashioned “Dear Abby” -type advice. Your sister in law is the only one who can put a stop to it by basically limiting his access to her to the extent that he can be civil.
 
Thank you big Dummy!! Now my ultimate question. This guy likes his own glory, and that’s why he is a self proclaimed bishop. He gets a high out of his following.

I have to wonder…he is a smart man and he has to know the truth that the Catholic Church is the true church of Christ. He just doesn’t want to admit it for the sake of pride and for the reason that he will lose his following. Or…do you think he really believes this ****.
 
joclucsylv said:
Big Dummy…this is what he wrote to me.

Greetings in the lovely name of Jesus the Lord of us both. I have considered the “time line” you have presernted. In fact I have studies them for years. This has been my life’s work. So I am very familiar with them. Permit me …to respectfully disagree with your assumption that the line of RC succession makes it to the apostles of our Lord. In time I will show, not that you will accept, but I will show that the trinitarian line of succession can reach back no further than the ANTI-Nicene Fathers(wich would include Tertullian, Hippolytus, etc.) The writings of the Apostolic Fathers (Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement, the Shepherd of Hermas) do not have a hint of trinitarian thought; in fact the opposit is true. It is my hope that you will prayerfully consider my posts concerning the Jesus name baptism and let me know your thoughts on the matter.

HELP!!!
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Forgive me for pointing out what should be obvious, but this man who writes to you is not as educated as he pretends. The fathers he seems to reject are the ANTE NICENE fathers, as in post Nicene council, not the ANTI NICENE fathers as in opposed to the Nicene council.
 
larsenl1 said:
Forgive me for pointing out what should be obvious, but this man who writes to you is not as educated as he pretends. The fathers he seems to reject are the ANTE NICENE fathers, as in post Nicene council, not the ANTI NICENE fathers as in opposed to the Nicene council.
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Thank you!! We will be posting this info under his writings tonight!! Thank you fellow Catholics for your help
 
Welp…another one of his writings he tagged my brother in. Here goes fellow Catholics. I would love to bury this guy alive!!

Praise the Lord Dear Friends.

If you are following my posts you know that I have been writing on Chruch history, espically the first 300-400 years. Also in these and with these posts I have been engaging some faithful Roman Catholic followers. Now, we have postulated that the Trinitarian dogma can not be traced back to the apostles of our Lord. It seems that all authorities agree whether they be Cathoilic, Orthodox, Protestant, or Apostolic. However, ther namer of Ignatius of Antioch keeps coming up. For the Catholic and Orthodox he is used as a bridge to the apostles, being, some say, the disciple of John the Apostle. Indeed, many Apostolic historians have given him up and asigned him to that group of men who were at the fountain head of the Catholic Faith. I have never been so inclined.

Modren Apostolic historians have not considered him of the true faith for several reasons: not the least of which was his eagerness to be martyred. This “seeking death” does stink of spiritual pride and glory seeking and has always given me pause about him. But to say that he had some strange beliefs and to say that he was not in the Faith are two entirely different things altogether.

Another reason Ignatius has been rejected by some of our historians is his strong emphasis on the Lord’s Supper alone with the role of the Bishop. It will come as no surprise to most of you that I find his thoughts on this matter consistent with the teachings of the apostles in the NT.

For several years I have been writing notes on the NT with a study Bible in view at some point in the future. It has been by thought to include the writings of Ignatius in the sudy helps of that Bible.

In short, I have not been willing to give someone so close to the apostles of Christ up to the Catholic faith.
 
joclucsylv said:
Would there be any writings from Clement, Ignatius, or Polycarp on confession, the Eucharist ro perhaps the Blessed Mother. The point I want to make to Oneness man is that if he is truly Apostolic, he would follow what the Apostles did in those areas.
Thank you!
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Only one letter from Polycarp exists so you cannot possibly expect to have the entire deposit of faith in Polycarp.
 
Now, having said that I understand that the Church of Iniquity was already at work while the apostles lived and Paul said that some of the elders of Ephesus would depart the true faith (Acts 20:30). Therefore, even if one “walked with the apostles” their teachings and writings would have no apostolic authority unless said teachings matched those of the apostles.

Paul, no doubt, had appointed (laid hands on) these elders; and yet he says: “Some from your among yourselves…” Therefore it is not the laying on of hands, but the true doctrine that is the badge of apostolicness.

It is my intention to do an indepth study on Ignatius here on F B. Hopefully, through this we all can come to a better place of understandin concerning him.

Apostolically Speaking

Bishop Jerry Hayes
 
joclucsylv said:
Thank you big Dummy!! Now my ultimate question. This guy likes his own glory, and that’s why he is a self proclaimed bishop. He gets a high out of his following.

I have to wonder…he is a smart man and he has to know the truth that the Catholic Church is the true church of Christ. He just doesn’t want to admit it for the sake of pride and for the reason that he will lose his following. Or…do you think he really believes this ****.
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2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

I think he honestly blieves his theology and I think he is of at least average intelliegence. Likely, his training does not stack up to that of a pastor or priest in other christian churches. For example, among UPC “scholars” you will not find any who has translated the Bible, nor has ever been on a Bible translation committee. They do not do the research neccessary to produce anything like a Greek, Hebrew to English Lexicon. I can think of only one of their authors who has ever published a book or article in peer review publications. deopublishing.com/reed.htm and he, David Reed only covers the history of oneness pentecostals from their begining in modern times around 1910ish. Likely, like most of us, they have only seen a Greek manuscript behind glass. Their authors are either self published or published by their own denominational publishers. Not even the secular publishers are interrested. They have only a handful of books in public libraries, and virtually none in University, nor College libraries unless it is one of their own schools. You don’t see much in apoologetics from them that interacts with comtemporary problems like the modern atheists for example. If they do publish something like that, say on abortion, it does not meet the muster to be read outside their church.
 
joclucsylv said:
Welp…another one of his writings he tagged my brother in. Here goes fellow Catholics. I would love to bury this guy alive!!

Praise the Lord Dear Friends.

If you are following my posts you know that I have been writing on Chruch history, espically the first 300-400 years. Also in these and with these posts I have been engaging some faithful Roman Catholic followers. Now, we have postulated that the Trinitarian dogma can not be traced back to the apostles of our Lord. It seems that all authorities agree whether they be Cathoilic, Orthodox, Protestant, or Apostolic. However, ther namer of Ignatius of Antioch keeps coming up. For the Catholic and Orthodox he is used as a bridge to the apostles, being, some say, the disciple of John the Apostle. Indeed, many Apostolic historians have given him up and asigned him to that group of men who were at the fountain head of the Catholic Faith. I have never been so inclined.

Modren Apostolic historians have not considered him of the true faith for several reasons: not the least of which was his eagerness to be martyred. This “seeking death” does stink of spiritual pride and glory seeking and has always given me pause about him. But to say that he had some strange beliefs and to say that he was not in the Faith are two entirely different things altogether.

Another reason Ignatius has been rejected by some of our historians is his strong emphasis on the Lord’s Supper alone with the role of the Bishop. It will come as no surprise to most of you that** I find his thoughts on this matter consistent** with the teachings of the apostles in the NT.

For several years I have been writing notes on the NT with a study Bible in view at some point in the future. It has been by thought to include the writings of Ignatius in the sudy helps of that Bible.

In short, I have not been willing to give someone so close to the apostles of Christ up to the Catholic faith.
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I wonder if he realized what he wrote?

Matthew 24:24
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

newadvent.org/fathers/0123.htm

Ignatius was consistent in attitude with other christians of his day.

Pliny the Younger was governor of Pontus/Bithynia from 111-113 AD. We have a whole set of exchanges of his letters with the emperor Trajan on a variety of administrative political matters. These two letters are the most famous, in which P. encounters Christianity for the first time.
Pliny, Letters 10.96-97
Pliny to the Emperor Trajan
Trajan to Pliny
www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/jod/texts/pliny.html

ad2000.com.au/articles/2006/aug2006p18_2327.html

John Foxe and the Joy of Suffering
John R. Knott
The Sixteenth Century Journal
Vol. 27, No. 3 (Autumn, 1996), pp. 721-734
(article consists of 14 pages)
Published by: The Sixteenth Century Journal
Stable URL: jstor.org/stable/2544014

Philippians 1:23
I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

FOX’s BOOK of MARTYRS
ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

Acts 5:41
The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.

1 Peter 1:6
In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

Colossians 1:24
Paul’s Labor for the Church ] Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.

Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=Bible+joy+in+suffereing&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=1009376907e884e3&biw=1024&bih=524

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=Bible+joy+of+dying+for+Christ&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=1009376907e884e3&biw=1024&bih=524

Romans 5
Peace and Hope
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we** boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope.**
 
2 Thessalonians 2:7
New International Version (NIV)

For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

two questions,

who will be taken out of the way?
who takes him out of the way?

One interpretation is the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way by the Father.

Another is, the Church will be taken out of the way by God.

How will Oneness people view this?

google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=esqb,ratio&xhr=t&q=Church+of+Iniquity&cp=19&qe=Q2h1cmNoIG9mIEluaXF1aXR5IA&qesig=h_SV5jxA30FFmMf-DFi9dA&pkc=AFgZ2tkwf9oEaPQAtDHTHg_hh6R03mIeA2_O_QFExq4j5bjt0t0fy8Rsi0_Hop8ALhqzF0xQWTeNIocV_iG981GVrHCFiqNjvw&pf=p&sclient=psy&site=&source=hp&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=Church+of+Iniquity+&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=1009376907e884e3&biw=1024&bih=524
 
Big Dummy
when he comes out with his indepth study on Ignatius, I will be sure to start another thread. Stay tuned!!!
 
joclucsylv said:
Welp…another one of his writings he tagged my brother in. Here goes fellow Catholics. I would love to bury this guy alive!!

Praise the Lord Dear Friends.

If you are following my posts you know that I have been writing on Chruch history, espically the first 300-400 years. Also in these and with these posts I have been engaging some faithful Roman Catholic followers. Now, we have postulated that the Trinitarian dogma can not be traced back to the apostles of our Lord. It seems that all authorities agree whether they be Cathoilic, Orthodox, Protestant, or Apostolic. However, ther namer of Ignatius of Antioch keeps coming up. For the Catholic and Orthodox he is used as a bridge to the apostles, being, some say, the disciple of John the Apostle. Indeed, many Apostolic historians have given him up and asigned him to that group of men who were at the fountain head of the Catholic Faith. I have never been so inclined.

Modren Apostolic historians have not considered him of the true faith for several reasons: not the least of which was his eagerness to be martyred. This “seeking death” does stink of spiritual pride and glory seeking and has always given me pause about him. But to say that he had some strange beliefs and to say that he was not in the Faith are two entirely different things altogether.

Another reason Ignatius has been rejected by some of our historians is his strong emphasis on the Lord’s Supper alone with the role of the Bishop. It will come as no surprise to most of you that I find his thoughts on this matter consistent with the teachings of the apostles in the NT.

For several years I have been writing notes on the NT with a study Bible in view at some point in the future. It has been by thought to include the writings of Ignatius in the sudy helps of that Bible.

In short, I have not been willing to give someone so close to the apostles of Christ up to the Catholic faith.
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Two comments - “… for where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church.” That sounds pretty Catholic to me.

Also, his writings of his “desire to be martyred” sound very Pauline to me. Read the last chapter of 2nd Timothy and you’ll see what I mean.
 
NotWorthy said:
Two comments - “… for where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church.” That sounds pretty Catholic to me.

Also, his writings of his “desire to be martyred” sound very Pauline to me. Read the last chapter of 2nd Timothy and you’ll see what I mean.
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Stay tuned Not Worthy for his indepth study on Ignatius which I am sure he will be copying from an anti Catholic site. I will post his writing on Ignatius by starting another thread.
 
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