Did climate change impact Hurricane Harvey?

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truthrevolt.org/news/climatologist-former-nasa-scientist-houston-flood-not-sign-climate-change

**Climatologist, Former NASA Scientist: ‘Houston Flood Not Sign of Climate Change’
“There have been many flood disasters in the Houston area, even dating to the mid-1800s when the population was very low.”
**
8.29.2017 News Trey Sanchez

Houston is underwater after being slammed with rain brought to shore by Hurricane Harvey. Officials say it could be weeks before the roads are traversable. While the mainstream media and other alarmists are eagerly pegging human-caused global warming on the rising waters, others are saying, “Not so fast.”

One of them is climatologist and former NASA scientist Roy W. Spencer, Ph.D. At his blog,…
Yeah, Roy Spencer a key CC skeptic who was involved in bad data. He along with John Christy and Richard Lindzen are NOT to be trusted in anything related to CC.

However, he is right – Harvey is not so much a “sign” of CC as a weather event that has been impacted and enhanced by CC. So in that regard he is right.

Climate is the aggregate (and average, etc) of weather. One single weather event does not indicate whether global climate change is happening, but the whole lot of such events, and there is plenty of evidence starting in 2005 (a few weeks before Katrina in peer-reviewed articles) that global warming IS making hurricanes on the whole stronger.

Which makes sense even to those who have rudimentary knowledge that heat can transform into kinetic energy, and that heat evaporates water…
 
Yeah, Roy Spencer a key CC skeptic who was involved in bad data. He along with John Christy and Richard Lindzen are NOT to be trusted in anything related to CC.
They are the Emmanuel Goldsteins of CC alarmism.
 
Here is the thing: Engineers do not usually plan for the most likely strain a structure is going to suffer. They usually plan for the greatest strain in the likely realm of possibility, and then put in a little more for safety, particularly when lives will be lost by underestimation of need. That doesn’t mean that they build structures that can’t fail. That means they build structures that are far less likely to get anyone killed when disaster strikes.

More frequent and more severe storms may not be a given, but they are definitely in the realm of possibility. Municipalities and states need to have disaster plans ready for weather events that are far beyond what they have seen before, particularly considering how many such storms have been seen in the last 20 years. That is not a poor use of limited financial resources. If the extra strenghth pays off one time in twenty over the lifetime of the structure, it will be well worth it.
Stress and strain are two totally different things.
 
Here is the thing: Engineers do not usually plan for the most likely strain a structure is going to suffer. They usually plan for the greatest strain in the likely realm of possibility, and then put in a little more for safety, particularly when lives will be lost by underestimation of need. That doesn’t mean that they build structures that can’t fail. That means they build structures that are far less likely to get anyone killed when disaster strikes.

More frequent and more severe storms may not be a given, but they are definitely in the realm of possibility. Municipalities and states need to have disaster plans ready for weather events that are far beyond what they have seen before, particularly considering how many such storms have been seen in the last 20 years. That is not a poor use of limited financial resources. If the extra strenghth pays off one time in twenty over the lifetime of the structure, it will be well worth it.
I guess the problem is we in the US are risk takers, which means we’d rather risk life and limb than do safe and prudent things. We are willing to gamble our money and our lives. Prudence and “prude” are negative words in our vocabulary. It’s not just that we want to save money up front, it’s that we get some sort of perverse pleasure out of taking risks…and then seeing the destruction and catastrophes in risk-taking’s wake.

Maybe that’s why there are so many CC deniers here.

I have to admit I’m sort of guilty myself. Several years ago we knew our water heater was corroded and that we’d have to take care of it sometime…but we ignored it and ignored it until one day we came home to a flooded house.

We used to do that with our cars, but have learned the bitter lesson – the first sign of a funny sound or smell, take it into the shop and have it checked!
 
bump for lynn,
your CAGW alarmism has no basis in fact. The storms are not more frequent nor is there evidence of increased severity due to CC.
There are studies (starting in 2005) that show more intense cyclones GLOBALLY and a few (starting in 2011) that show more frequent cyclones GLOBALLY.

The problem with hurricane studies & global warming in general is that (1) there are not a lot of hurricanes, so it is hard to reach statistical significance due to the threat to Statistical Conclusion Validity of having a small data set (which has nothing to do with whether GW is or is not impacting hurricanes). (2) An issue re frequency is that there are several factors that go into determining whether or not a hurricane will form, beyond those related to GW. Nevertheless they have been able to establish GLOBALLY that GW is increasing the intensity AND frequency of cyclones, the former being more robust than the latter.

The problem with your information is that you truncate the small data set even further by limiting it to a smaller area (the North Atlantic), and not all the oceans of the world, and only those hitting land. Even so there is beginning to emerge some evidence that GW is impacting North Atlantic cyclones, so the question is do we want to wait 50 or 100 years for enough stats to come in to definitively say that GW is increasing N. Atlantic hurricanes? Or to we take a prudent path of mitigating GW now. As mentioned, Americans especially hate prudence and love risk-taking, perhaps just for the thrill of it, so perhaps the answer is they’d rather follow you than me.

A more important view would be to look at the theory and physics behind the GW-cyclone connection, such as the connection between sea surface temps (which have been shown to be increasing with global warming) and the Power Dissipation Index (PDI) or intensity of the storm, and there is evidence for this in the N. Atlantic even with the cut-down small data set.
see gfdl.noaa.gov/global-warming-and-hurricanes/

As for me, I even considered Hurricane Andrew that hit Florida in 1992 to have been impacted by GW, which made me all the more intent on mitigating GW. I understand the physics and possible linkages; I don’t need 95% certainty to act prudently. For one thing, we now live in a globally warmed world, so in effect nearly everything that can be theoretically linked to GW is indeed being impacted by GW. It’s the scientists stuck in their null hypothesis that are lagging behind, and the denialist industry that is totally perverse in their rigging the data so as to fool people, their corruption of science.

So the people are given 2 choices: 95% confidence required or 101% confidence required before they can say GW is happening or impacting cyclones, or their lump is cancerous and go for surgery; 80% certainty their lump is cancerous will not do…they’ll just have to wait some more years to see if it gets up to 95% or 101% certainty…

This is interesting bec a similar situation to this NOAA thing of small numbers happened with the US’s focus only on the US. In a small area of Brownsville, TX & Matamoros, MX (adjoining cities) several decades ago there were a much higher rate of babies born without brains (anencephaly) than in the general pop. However, since the CDC only looked at the US stats (1/3 of the cases), and did not include the MX stats (2/3 of the cases), they didn’t have much statistical power to make claims. Also they told (without any studies on the issue) it was because of the corn tortillas the mothers ate probably lacking folic acid (as if Brownsville mothers were eating different tortillas from what McAllen mothers were), failing to consider the high level of pollution in that particular area that has been linked to anencephaly.

So the story goes, there are many ways to fool the public.
 
You do realize there is no significant difference between a hurricane and a cyclone. Right?
 
Here is what NOAA has on storm data, it shows wide variation not a trend.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/styles/medium/public/2016-07/cyclones-figure1-2016.png
From the same website as your graph (epa.gov/climate-indicators/climate-change-indicators-tropical-cyclone-activity#5):🙂

QUOTE:
-According to the total annual ACE Index, cyclone intensity has risen noticeably over the past 20 years, and six of the 10 most active years since 1950 have occurred since the mid-1990s (see Figure 2). Relatively high levels of cyclone activity were also seen during the 1950s and 1960s.

-The PDI (see Figure 3) shows fluctuating cyclone intensity for most of the mid- to late 20th century, followed by a noticeable increase since 1995 (similar to the ACE Index). These trends are shown with associated variations in sea surface temperature in the tropical North Atlantic for comparison (see Figure 3).
 
You do realize there is no significant difference between a hurricane and a cyclone. Right?
What’s your point? They are also called typhoons, and in Tamil, puyal.

I guess there are lots of terms for the same thing in various languages. Scientists tend to use “cyclone” but are referring to what we N. American English speakers refer to as hurricane.

Not sure what your point is.
 
What’s your point? They are also called typhoons, and in Tamil, puyal.

I guess there are lots of terms for the same thing in various languages. Scientists tend to use “cyclone” but are referring to what we N. American English speakers refer to as hurricane.

Not sure what your point is.
If the terminology changes due to location, as it does in the case of hurricanes, typhoons, and cyclones, then what exactly are you talking about when you talk about cyclones “GLOBALLY” and also claim there are too few hurricanes to really measure a trend?

Do you even know what you are saying?
 
If the terminology changes due to location, as it does in the case of hurricanes, typhoons, and cyclones, then what exactly are you talking about when you talk about cyclones “GLOBALLY” and also claim there are too few hurricanes to really measure a trend?

Do you even know what you are saying?
I don’t think you understand. Hurricanes, cyclones, and typhoons are all the same thing and can be included in a single data set.

It seems like you are trying to break up that data set so as to put further threat to statistical conclusion validity. It may work with your followers, but it doesn’t work with me.

Of course, one can also study cyclonic events in particular regions of the world, which is fine, as long a one understands the larger picture given by the larger data set and the physics and theories that explain it.
 
I don’t think you understand. Hurricanes, cyclones, and typhoons are all the same thing and can be included in a single data set.

It seems like you are trying to break up that data set so as to put further threat to statistical conclusion validity. It may work with your followers, but it doesn’t work with me.
I do not believe you are actually reading your own posts.
I am not the one breaking the data set up. You are.
Here it is. First, you claim there is scientific data on Cyclones “Globally”.
There are studies (starting in 2005) that show more intense cyclones GLOBALLY and a few (starting in 2011) that show more frequent cyclones GLOBALLY.
Then in the same post you break off hurricanes and claim problems with study of them since there are so few.
The problem with hurricane studies & global warming in general is that (1) there are not a lot of hurricanes, so it is hard to reach statistical significance due to the threat to Statistical Conclusion Validity of having a small data set (which has nothing to do with whether GW is or is not impacting hurricanes). (2) An issue re frequency is that there are several factors that go into determining whether or not a hurricane will form, beyond those related to GW.
Then you drop back to speaking of cyclones having some scientific evidence…
Nevertheless they have been able to establish GLOBALLY that GW is increasing the intensity AND frequency of cyclones, the former being more robust than the latter.
And then, after speaking of hurricanes and cyclones separately, you claim there is evidence for the North Atlantic Cyclones to be more intense due to GW.
The problem with your information is that you truncate the small data set even further by limiting it to a smaller area (the North Atlantic), and not all the oceans of the world, and only those hitting land. Even so there is beginning to emerge some evidence that GW is impacting North Atlantic cyclones,
However, there are no “North Atlantic Cyclones” the North Atlantic has Hurricanes. And you have already told us there is insufficient data on hurricanes.
I guess you caught that one, because you then switched back…
so the question is do we want to wait 50 or 100 years for enough stats to come in to definitively say that GW is increasing N. Atlantic hurricanes?
Hurricanes (of which you claim insufficient data)…Or Cyclones (of which you claim there is data)…or both, now that you claim they are the same?

After all of that, I believe it is a safe bet to say you have no idea what you are talking about.
 
Lynn, There must be many more studies that contradict your examples,
because NOAA doesn’t support your position:
“It is premature to conclude that human activities–and particularly greenhouse gas emissions that cause global warming–have already had a detectable impact on Atlantic hurricane or global tropical cyclone activity”
gfdl.noaa.gov/global-warming-and-hurricanes/
There are studies (starting in 2005) that show more intense cyclones GLOBALLY and a few (starting in 2011) that show more frequent cyclones GLOBALLY.

The problem with hurricane studies & global warming in general is that (1) there are not a lot of hurricanes, so it is hard to reach statistical significance due to the threat to Statistical Conclusion Validity of having a small data set (which has nothing to do with whether GW is or is not impacting hurricanes). (2) An issue re frequency is that there are several factors that go into determining whether or not a hurricane will form, beyond those related to GW. Nevertheless they have been able to establish GLOBALLY that GW is increasing the intensity AND frequency of cyclones, the former being more robust than the latter.

The problem with your information is that you truncate the small data set even further by limiting it to a smaller area (the North Atlantic), and not all the oceans of the world, and only those hitting land. Even so there is beginning to emerge some evidence that GW is impacting North Atlantic cyclones, so the question is do we want to wait 50 or 100 years for enough stats to come in to definitively say that GW is increasing N. Atlantic hurricanes? Or to we take a prudent path of mitigating GW now. As mentioned, Americans especially hate prudence and love risk-taking, perhaps just for the thrill of it, so perhaps the answer is they’d rather follow you than me.

A more important view would be to look at the theory and physics behind the GW-cyclone connection, such as the connection between sea surface temps (which have been shown to be increasing with global warming) and the Power Dissipation Index (PDI) or intensity of the storm, and there is evidence for this in the N. Atlantic even with the cut-down small data set.
see gfdl.noaa.gov/global-warming-and-hurricanes/

As for me, I even considered Hurricane Andrew that hit Florida in 1992 to have been impacted by GW, which made me all the more intent on mitigating GW. I understand the physics and possible linkages; I don’t need 95% certainty to act prudently. For one thing, we now live in a globally warmed world, so in effect nearly everything that can be theoretically linked to GW is indeed being impacted by GW. It’s the scientists stuck in their null hypothesis that are lagging behind, and the denialist industry that is totally perverse in their rigging the data so as to fool people, their corruption of science.

So the people are given 2 choices: 95% confidence required or 101% confidence required before they can say GW is happening or impacting cyclones, or their lump is cancerous and go for surgery; 80% certainty their lump is cancerous will not do…they’ll just have to wait some more years to see if it gets up to 95% or 101% certainty…

This is interesting bec a similar situation to this NOAA thing of small numbers happened with the US’s focus only on the US. In a small area of Brownsville, TX & Matamoros, MX (adjoining cities) several decades ago there were a much higher rate of babies born without brains (anencephaly) than in the general pop. However, since the CDC only looked at the US stats (1/3 of the cases), and did not include the MX stats (2/3 of the cases), they didn’t have much statistical power to make claims. Also they told (without any studies on the issue) it was because of the corn tortillas the mothers ate probably lacking folic acid (as if Brownsville mothers were eating different tortillas from what McAllen mothers were), failing to consider the high level of pollution in that particular area that has been linked to anencephaly.

So the story goes, there are many ways to fool the public.
 
Why know more than NOAA?
How do you see this as scientifically significant while their scientists do not?
Could it be that we really don’t have intensity data prior that is comprehensive and reliant?

Lynn, please stop PROOFTEXTING to fabricate science that supports you. THe final bullet you ignored explained why
  • “Despite the apparent increases in tropical cyclone activity in recent years, shown in Figures 2 and 3, changes in observation methods over time make it difficult to know whether tropical storm activity has actually shown an increase over time”
From the same website as your graph (epa.gov/climate-indicators/climate-change-indicators-tropical-cyclone-activity#5):🙂

QUOTE:
-According to the total annual ACE Index, cyclone intensity has risen noticeably over the past 20 years, and six of the 10 most active years since 1950 have occurred since the mid-1990s (see Figure 2). Relatively high levels of cyclone activity were also seen during the 1950s and 1960s.

-The PDI (see Figure 3) shows fluctuating cyclone intensity for most of the mid- to late 20th century, followed by a noticeable increase since 1995 (similar to the ACE Index). These trends are shown with associated variations in sea surface temperature in the tropical North Atlantic for comparison (see Figure 3).
 
I do not believe you are actually reading your own posts.
I am not the one breaking the data set up. You are.
Here it is. First, you claim there is scientific data on Cyclones “Globally”.

Then in the same post you break off hurricanes and claim problems with study of them since there are so few.

Then you drop back to speaking of cyclones having some scientific evidence…

And then, after speaking of hurricanes and cyclones separately, you claim there is evidence for the North Atlantic Cyclones to be more intense due to GW.

However, there are no “North Atlantic Cyclones” the North Atlantic has Hurricanes. And you have already told us there is insufficient data on hurricanes.
I guess you caught that one, because you then switched back…

Hurricanes (of which you claim insufficient data)…Or Cyclones (of which you claim there is data)…or both, now that you claim they are the same?

After all of that, I believe it is a safe bet to say you have no idea what you are talking about.
There is sufficient data for hurricanes/cyclones/typhoons (all being the same thing) globally to indicate global warming/climate change/greenhouse effect (as it has variously been called) is increasing the intensity of them (the global dataset of them); also some evidence it is increasing their frequency, though that evidence is not as robust as the evidence for increased intensity.

There is also the science, physics, and theory re GW and weather patterns and many studies from different angles to explain and support that evidence.

Since we are now living in a globally warmed world and as people concerned about life on earth we should not start out with a “null hypothesis” (as scientists do), and the sea surface temps have increased, even more so in the Gulf of Mexico and along the east coast of the US, we can understand that global warming most likely did impact Hurricane Harvey –
(1) making it more intense than it would have been without global warming and its effects;
(2) giving it more precipitation and causing more flooding; and
(3) enhancing the stalling pattern that led to even more dramatic flooding in Houston and elsewhere (as research on how GW impacts Rossby waves, has indicated).

Take it or leave it… I presume you will leave it. 🙂
 
Why know more than NOAA?
How do you see this as scientifically significant while their scientists do not?
Could it be that we really don’t have intensity data prior that is comprehensive and reliant?

Lynn, please stop PROOFTEXTING to fabricate science that supports you. THe final bullet you ignored explained why
  • “Despite the apparent increases in tropical cyclone activity in recent years, shown in Figures 2 and 3, changes in observation methods over time make it difficult to know whether tropical storm activity has actually shown an increase over time”
So?

It is enough for me that scientists have been predicting that GW may increase intensity of storms and perhaps their frequency for some 30 years now. That was enough for me, even without rock solid evidence that it is happening. So in my books even Hurricane Andrew in 1992 was impacted by GW…even tho no scientist that I know of is making that claim.

There is some evidence now that GW is enhancing storms. As you point out there are a lot of problems re establishing that connection, including the small number of storms and problems of measuring them in all places and in the past.

So you would have us wait another 50 or 100 years to decide whether GW is causing problems, including enhancing storms, in order to consider mitigating it. But I decided to start mitigating 27 years ago, without 95% confidence that GW is or will be causing harm, and since then over the decades the evidence has become more and more robust for the harms it is causing.

That’s just where we differ, maybe due to different personalities or upbringing.
 
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