Did Fr. James Martin just commit heresy?

[Steeevyo]

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He has compared George Floyd’s death to the death of Jesus Christ and prayed for Floyd’s intercession in Heaven. The latter means he unofficially canonized Floyd as a saint. This appears to be heresy. Is heresy now allowed in the Catholic Church if it is left leaning? Who would have to be adressed about this within the hierarchy to maybe start some investigative proceedings?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The Catholic Church permits us to pray privately for the intercession of any person we reasonably believe is in Heaven.

Fr. Martin’s prayer is a private prayer, in that it is not part of the public liturgy or public worship of the Church, it’s a prayer on his personal social media.

Fr. Martin can reasonably believe that George Floyd is in Heaven. One argument for this is that George Floyd may have served his purgatory on earth by being tortured for 9 minutes before he finally died.

Therefore, Fr. Martin is permitted to ask for the intercession of George Floyd. He has not committed any heresy by so doing.

George Floyd, pray for us!

 

[OddBird]

He […] prayed for Floyd’s intercession in Heaven. The latter means he unofficially canonized Floyd as a saint.

It doesn’t. To be canonized, saints need to have two miracles recognized. How do you think this happens, if people do not ask for their intercession way before they are canonized ?

I regularly ask for the intercession of some of my dead family members, not all of whom were Catholic, and of someone who is not a saint yet but has an opened sainthood case. Does that make me a heretic ?

 

[Steeevyo]

Given that he posted on Twitter and said “pray for us” I have my doubts about this very generous interpretation that this is a private prayer. Also, while I sincerely hope George Floyd is in heaven there are many clues about his life that hint at the possibility he might not be. Martin does not know ‘reasonably’ neither do I.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You are entitled to your own opinion of it, but it still isn’t wrong in the eyes of the Church.

We’ve had the discussion about asking for the intercession of deceased non-saints many times before on here.

 

[Thom18]

Given that he posted on Twitter and said “pray for us” I have my doubts about this very generous interpretation that this is a private prayer. Also, while I sincerely hope George Floyd is in heaven there are many clues about his life that hint at the possibility he might not be. Martin does not know ‘reasonably’ neither do I.

A prayer outside of the Liturgy is considered a private prayer. This wasn’t a liturgical prayer.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

A prayer outside of the Liturgy is considered a private prayer. This wasn’t a liturgical prayer.

Correct. Fr. Martin would not be allowed to ask for the intercession of George Floyd during a Mass or a Communion service at church, or name a church after George Floyd, or work his name into the Liturgy of the Hours, etc. Those are forms of public prayer. “Public prayer” means liturgical prayer, so even if you were praying Liturgy of the Hours locked in your private room it would still be public prayer of the Church.

On the other hand, just saying a prayer in a public place like your blog or the street corner doesn’t make it public prayer. I could say a Hail Mary really loud in the public square today, it would still be private prayer.

 

[sealabeag]

I don’t agree with his assumption that George Floyd or anyone apart from the canonised saints is in Heaven - we should pray for the dead, not ask them to pray for us. The exception to this rule would be those who have lived exemplary Christian lives and who we think are possibly in Heaven - if people didn’t pray to the non-canonised, we’d never get the miracles necessary for canonisation.
I will poke the hornets nest, however, and say that Fr. James Martin has said some very wrong, possibly even heretical things in the past. This, however doesn’t rank up there.
I don’t agree with it, but it’s not even close to heresy territory.

 

[Steeevyo]

Thank you. While it is of course crazy that posting on Twitter counts as private prayer, the explanation is sufficient for me.

 

[F_Marturana]

This isn’t heresy.

Jesus himself said what you do to the least of my brothers that you do to me.

 

[F_Marturana]

We actually can ask those in purgatory to intercede got us.

They can’t intercede for themselves .

How else could the church confirm miracles due to intercessions by the departed. Someone prayed to a non canonized saint and received a grace.

 

[sealabeag]

Yeah, that’s more or less exactly what I said.
Oh, ok yes I see. I said those we think are probably in Heaven. Sure, we can pray to the Holy Souls. But should prioritise praying for them.

 

[puer.dei]

The latter means he unofficially canonized Floyd as a saint. This appears to be heresy.

Calm down and take a breath. There’s no such thing as “unofficially canonized.” We can ask anyone to pray for us, even if we don’t know for sure they are in Heaven.

 

[Weserthy]

I don’t agree with his assumption that George Floyd or anyone apart from the canonised saints is in Heaven - we should pray for the dead, not ask them to pray for us. The exception to this rule would be those who have lived exemplary Christian lives and who we think are possibly in Heaven - if people didn’t pray to the non-canonised, we’d never get the miracles necessary for canonisation.
I will poke the hornets nest, however, and say that Fr. James Martin has said some very wrong, possibly even heretical things in the past. This, however doesn’t rank up there.
I don’t agree with it, but it’s not even close to heresy territory.

I agree with this. We should be praying for George Floyd, not asking him to pray for us. Whatever the tragic circumstances of his death were, he had his own problems earlier in his life and it would not be best to assume he is in heaven.

While I don’t agree with with Fr. Martin has said here, he has said much worse things in the past. I can look past this one I suppose.

 

[goout]

sealabeag:

George Floyd or anyone apart from the canonised saints is in Heaven - we should pray for the dead, not ask them to pray for us. The exception to this rule would be those who have lived exemplary Christian lives and

So in conclusion for me: James Martin is a liberal Jesuit and knows how to push my buttons while staying within the legal framework of the Church if only by a hair.

Just a heads up: trying to determine who’s within the legal framework of canon law will drive you to distraction. It’s not productive or conducive to a peaceful life.

 

[Elf01]

I agree with this. We should be praying for George Floyd, not asking him to pray for us. Whatever the tragic circumstances of his death were, he had his own problems earlier in his life and it would not be best to assume he is in heaven.

I pray for the repose of my grandparents souls. I also pray for their intercession.

 

[porthos11]

Steeevyo:

He […] prayed for Floyd’s intercession in Heaven. The latter means he unofficially canonized Floyd as a saint.

It doesn’t. To be canonized, saints need to have two miracles recognized. How do you think this happens, if people do not ask for their intercession way before they are canonized ?

I regularly ask for the intercession of some of my dead family members, not all of whom were Catholic, and of someone who is not a saint yet but has an opened sainthood case. Does that make me a heretic ?

That’s what the Venerable stage is for in the canonization process. It is at the Venerable stage that intercession could be sought and miracles reported for beatification.

I would say that invoking a dead someone for intercession before even being declared Servant of God (and I would personally say not before Venerable, the first declaration made by the Holy See) is imprudent at the very least, and highly inappropriate at worst.

This is how I regard asking for George Floyd to pray for us. From all I have seen, his life was not one of heroic Christian virtue, and if anything, needs prayers rather than be prayed to. Asking him for prayers is for me, totally improper.

 

[Dolphin]

We are all made in the image and likeness of God. Floyd was murdered innocently and it is the same

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I would say that invoking a dead someone for intercession before even being declared Servant of God (and I would personally say not before Venerable, the first declaration made by the Holy See) is imprudent at the very least, and highly inappropriate at worst.

I ask my deceased relatives to pray for me all the time. I doubt they will ever have a sainthood process, especially the ones who died Protestant. Of course I also pray for them, including having Gregorian Masses said for them. I don’t think God thinks my prayers are imprudent or inappropriate at all, why would he think that about a sincere prayer? And if God doesn’t object to my prayers, and the Church also doesn’t object to my prayers, then your opinion matters not.

 

[pnewton]

He has compared George Floyd’s death to the death of Jesus Christ and prayed for Floyd’s intercession in Heaven

I would recommend before you accuse another person of heresy you study what the word means.

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

Jesus teaches here the way we treat others is the way we treat him. When we inflict misery or show mercy to others, we are in a real sense doing this to him.