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sealabeag
Guest
Of course. Pope Francis always warns us of the dangers of clericalism. 
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tonyh12
Guest
Just to pick up on the point raised in reply 1 about reasonably being in heaven for anyone - The liturgical prayer is Eternal rest grant to him O Lord; and let perpetual light shine upon him MAY his soul, and the souls of all the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace.
The operative word is āmayā we never say āis the caseā regarding heaven or purgatory.
it is only by godās mercy for all of us that we can be saved, and scripture says the road to destruction is wide and we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling etc so would caution going so far as to say we can reasonably assume anyone except a declared saint is in heaven. I sincerely hope he is or at least in purgatory so by the mercy of God may he rest in peace,
The operative word is āmayā we never say āis the caseā regarding heaven or purgatory.
it is only by godās mercy for all of us that we can be saved, and scripture says the road to destruction is wide and we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling etc so would caution going so far as to say we can reasonably assume anyone except a declared saint is in heaven. I sincerely hope he is or at least in purgatory so by the mercy of God may he rest in peace,
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twf
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Priests on both side of the spectrum push my buttons. I started a thread not long ago about a traditionalist priest whose recent blog post pushed mine. We can vent and question but we need to remember to be respectful of all priests no matter the circumstances.
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PetraG
Guest
Yes, it is that fine line between being respectful of the priest and yet being honest in feedback about a blog or a Twitter feed that happens to belong to a priest. If the priest lends the authority of the priesthood to the blog, that puts readers in a spot that is tighter still. It is not as if the bishops have the resources to keep tabs on it all, either.
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PetraG
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This poses a Catch-22, though. How are there going to be miracles attributable to the intercession of someone who has died as evidence for their canonization unless people ask for the intercession of those who have died who have not been declared a saint? Just by the evidence used to declare someone a saint, we know that it is OK to ask for the intercession of someone who has not been formally declared a saint.
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tonyh12
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I didnāt say we canāt hope and ask for intercession, we can certainly hope.
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hope
Guest
I disagree with you. It is my understanding that those in purgatory can pray for us. It is not a settled question that is there is no official Church teaching. They cannot pray for themselves, however. It has been my experience that I have had help from the poor souls in purgatory.
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sealabeag
Guest
We donāt disagree. 
Of course we can pray to the Holy Souls in Purgatory. I do it all the time. What I was saying is that, when it comes to specific individuals, we should prioritise praying for them after their death. Praying to them is fine too especially if we think theyāre probably in heaven, but thatās secondary, until they are canonized, essentially. Praying for the intercession of the holy souls is a more general act.
Of course we can pray to the Holy Souls in Purgatory. I do it all the time. What I was saying is that, when it comes to specific individuals, we should prioritise praying for them after their death. Praying to them is fine too especially if we think theyāre probably in heaven, but thatās secondary, until they are canonized, essentially. Praying for the intercession of the holy souls is a more general act.
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Steeevyo
Guest
I was trying to find an answer to my question today and I found it. Thank you for your concern though. I have never in my life not addressed a priest as Father in a personal interaction. Writing on an internet message boards should be a small lapse that I can live with.
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Steeevyo
Guest
It is fine for you to be unconditionally subservient to authority I prefer not to.
But I always will respect authority. Respect is what is important.
But I always will respect authority. Respect is what is important.
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JulianN
Guest
No concernājust explaining that, contrary to your earlier statement, you have treated Fr. Martin disrespectfully.
blackforest
Well-known member
I see from your profile that youāre new to the faith. Welcome.
Something youāll notice soon is that we Catholics distinguish between authoritarian and authoritative. Our Church leaders speak from the latter stance.
American Catholics, in particular, have an especially hard time with the whole concept of submitting to the Magisterium because itās so culturally ingrained in us to be rebellious, march to our own individualistic beat, and treat the Church like a democracy. But our Church is ancient and predates our culture. If you find yourself disagreeing with Magisterial authority, (donāt worry - weāve all been there), pray your way through it. Obedience is actually a huge, if not uncomfortable, part of our faith.
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Dr_Meinheimer
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He also asked for forgiveness for what "we " did. Iād appreciate it if Father Martin never lumped me in with anything he refers to ever, frankly. My family was horrified by his death, and we were horrified for Tony Timpaās equally horrific death (that received little to know coverage). I will say that if he was speaking of what humanity did (I doubt it), I can see his point. āForgive us our trespassesā¦ā
I read this as asking for forgiveness for what we white folk did. Thatās where he and I part company. Plus, thereās my opinion that Father Martin appears to be wrong in most everything I hear him say, ergo heās got that working against him.
I read this as asking for forgiveness for what we white folk did. Thatās where he and I part company. Plus, thereās my opinion that Father Martin appears to be wrong in most everything I hear him say, ergo heās got that working against him.
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Dr_Meinheimer
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I would also say obedience and agreement are not the same thing. I disagree with how my Bishop has handled the COVID shutdowns. I do however, obey. That has been going on since the time of St. Peter. There are bad decisions made by mortal men. I obey my Bishop regardless, but do not lose my ability to discern right and wrong when we see it starkly.
blackforest
Well-known member
Fair enough, and good distinction.
In this context, we donāt have the authority to declare a priest in good standing a heretic.
In this context, we donāt have the authority to declare a priest in good standing a heretic.
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Dr_Meinheimer
Guest
Nah, I am not enough of an expert to do that, and frankly, others can do that when it is needed.
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goout
Guest
Because itās not your sphere of competence or influence.
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sealabeag
Guest
So nobody has a right to comment on issues beyond their āsphere of competence or influenceā? The laity have no right to point out the failures of duty of their shepherds?
Iām not a builder, but if my roof starts leaking, Iām going to let him know his mistake!
Iām not a builder, but if my roof starts leaking, Iām going to let him know his mistake!
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goout
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I didnāt really say that no one has a rightā¦
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pnewton
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We all have the right - free speech. We have the ability - fingers to type, mouth to speak. We often lack the knowledge though. There seems to be no problem with the most ignorant having the strongest opinions. Ignorance is only a problem when pride does not allow for us to recognize it. Wisdom comes from knowing that the more we know, the more we are also ignorant of.
I admit Fr. Martin, and Fr. Z who was referred to earlier, is a quandary for me. I would like nothing better than spending time trying to understand them better. But I will have to settle for commenting of a few points I do know about, shutting my mouth on other areas, and apologize for when I fail to recognize the difference.
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