Did God abandon the Jews..?

[TEPO]

Luke 13. 6-9

“There once was a person who had a fig tree planted in his orchard, and when he came in search of fruit on it but found none, he said to the gardener, ‘For three years now I have come in search of fruit on this fig tree but have found none. (So) cut it down. Why should it exhaust the soil?’ He said to him in reply, ‘Sir, leave it for this year also, and I shall cultivate the ground around it and fertilize it; it may bear fruit in the future. If not you can cut it down.’”

What was it that the Jews were not doing that caused them to be cut down…?

-or-

What were the Jews doing that caused them to be cut down…?

 

[MarkThompson]

Luke 13. 6-9

“There once was a person who had a fig tree planted in his orchard, and when he came in search of fruit on it but found none, he said to the gardener, ‘For three years now I have come in search of fruit on this fig tree but have found none. (So) cut it down. Why should it exhaust the soil?’ He said to him in reply, ‘Sir, leave it for this year also, and I shall cultivate the ground around it and fertilize it; it may bear fruit in the future. If not you can cut it down.’”

What was it that the Jews were not doing that caused them to be cut down…?

-or-

What were the Jews doing that caused them to be cut down…?

Who and when are you referring to? Many of the Jews became followers of Christ; we are their spiritual successors. Or are you asking about the Holocaust or something?

 

[TEPO]

Who and when are you referring to? Many of the Jews became followers of Christ; we are their spiritual successors. Or are you asking about the Holocaust or something?

I am asking why God at first made a covenant with only the Jewish people - and then took it away from them.

Jesus came and rebuked the Jews… Why?

Was it the “clergy” who was in dissent, or was it the generation…?

 

[MarkThompson]

I am asking why God at first made a covenant with only the Jewish people - and then took it away from them.

Jesus came and rebuked the Jews… Why?

Was it the “clergy” who was in dissent, or was it the generation…?

No offense, but I feel like the totality of the Bible explains the whole thing pretty well. So, whereas you ask “Why did God abandon the Jews,” in fact, far from abandoning them, he sent his only-begotten Son to be born among them for their salvation. That was the fulfillment of the covenant – it wasn’t taken away from them.

Maybe I’m still not getting exactly what it is you’re asking.

 

[zarthan]

I am asking why God at first made a covenant with only the Jewish people - and then took it away from them.

Jesus came and rebuked the Jews… Why?

Was it the “clergy” who was in dissent, or was it the generation…?

God did not take away the covenant that He made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The Mosaic covenant that was written on tablets of stone was replaced with the New Covenant where the law of God is written on our hearts through Jesus Christ.

"I ask then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew" (Romans 11:1-2)

"I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise in your own estimation:a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written:" (Romans 11:25-26)

"In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable". (Romans 11;28-29)

 

[TEPO]

No offense, but I feel like the totality of the Bible explains the whole thing pretty well. So, whereas you ask “Why did God abandon the Jews,” in fact, far from abandoning them, he sent his only-begotten Son to be born among them for their salvation. That was the fulfillment of the covenant – it wasn’t taken away from them.

Maybe I’m still not getting exactly what it is you’re asking.

No, you haven’t gotten it yet… Or maybe I dont…

Are you saying that God was pleased with the Jews and the way they ran things when Jesus was born? What was the parable about the fig tree and the gardner about then?

 

[TEPO]

God did not take away the covenant that He made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The Mosaic covenant that was written on tablets of stone was replaced with the New Covenant where the law of God is written on our hearts through Jesus Christ.

"I ask then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew" (Romans 11:1-2)

"I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise in your own estimation:a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written:" (Romans 11:25-26)

"In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable". (Romans 11;28-29)

O.K. So God did not reject the Jewish people… Did He reject the Rabbi’s, or possibly the way’s in which the Rabbi’s were teaching…?

In other words, why did God divide.?

 

[MarkThompson]

No, you haven’t gotten it yet… Or maybe I dont…

Are you saying that God was pleased with the Jews and the way they ran things when Jesus was born? What was the parable about the fig tree and the gardner about then?

Well, it’s a parable about repentance and right living. God has always and everywhere been calling his people to repentance: I can’t think of an instance in Scripture when Jesus, or a prophet or messenger of God, comes to say, “Nice work, guys! Keep it up!” So I’ve never read this parable as casting a judgment on the Jewish people. In fact, the Jewish people did bear fruit: Jesus himself was the fruit of the house of David. Some Jewish people were just and lived rightly (e.g., Mary, Joseph, the crowds who followed Jesus), other less so (the Sanhedrin, the moneychangers in the Temple).

Where did you get the idea that God “cut down” the Jews?

 

[CEM5]

Luke 13. 6-9

“There once was a person who had a fig tree planted in his orchard, and when he came in search of fruit on it but found none, he said to the gardener, ‘For three years now I have come in search of fruit on this fig tree but have found none. (So) cut it down. Why should it exhaust the soil?’ He said to him in reply, ‘Sir, leave it for this year also, and I shall cultivate the ground around it and fertilize it; it may bear fruit in the future. If not you can cut it down.’”

What was it that the Jews were not doing that caused them to be cut down…?

-or-

What were the Jews doing that caused them to be cut down…?

Hi TEPO,

The parable of the Fig Tree pertains to a lesson: The owner of the vineyard of Fig trees (they were often planted in vineyards) represents God; the gardener is Jesus, and the fig trees represent Israel (as the Old Testament often demonstrated).

Israel turned their back on God, and the remaining two tribes (Benjamin and Judah - now known as the Jewish peoples) rejected Jesus, the messiah. God always promised that a remnant would be spared, and these were the first few thousands of Jewish people who converted to Christianity. God always kept His promises: it is the people who did not keep the covenant with God.

Recall that Jesus also told us that some of the original branches (some of the Jewish people) are cut off from the tree, however new branches (the gentile converts to Christianity and those who have converted) are now grafted on and are part of the tree. Jesus cautioned that if we didn’t bear fruit as well, we too could be cut off.

It is our disobedience and our lack of faith that will cause anyone to be cut off, just as the original branches were cut off because of lack of faith and rejection of the Messiah.

The ten lost tribes of Israel that were scattered among the Gentile nations hundreds of years ago and assimilated as Gentiles now (no longer known to be Israelites anymore) would receive the Good News of Jesus from the “Apostle of the Gentiles” - St. Paul. This way, those among the 10 lost tribes would hear and many would also convert, thus “all Israel will be saved” - the mystery that Paul spoke of.

So, many Jewish people and those “lost” Israelite tribes converted to Christianity, including many Gentiles.

We are all God’s children. No longer slave, Jew, or Gentile, but one under Christ.

blessings,

 

[TEPO]

Well, it’s a parable about repentance and right living. God has always and everywhere been calling his people to repentance: I can’t think of an instance in Scripture when Jesus, or a prophet or messenger of God, comes to say, “Nice work, guys! Keep it up!” So I’ve never read this parable as casting a judgment on the Jewish people. In fact, the Jewish people did bear fruit: Jesus himself was the fruit of the house of David. Some Jewish people were just and lived rightly (e.g., Mary, Joseph, the crowds who followed Jesus), other less so (the Sanhedrin, the moneychangers in the Temple).

Where did you get the idea that God “cut down” the Jews?

I read it from an old Catholic book written by Catholic scholars back in the day. A very old book. I don’t remember the name of it or the authors, but I have always understood the parable in this sense -as a sad parable.

But I still believe it to be true. Why else would there be a Jewish faith, right…? They should all be Christian.

I love the Jews. Just like God does. I just want to know what it was that they did wrong so that I can not be that way myself.

Was it pride?
Was it corruption?
Was it politics?
Was it worldly desire?
Was it money?
Was it power?
Was it revenge?

God obviously saw an err on their part. Otherwise He would not have mentioned it.

The reason I am wondering is to compare the scandals of the old Jewish clergy with our modern day Christian clergies to see if we are doing wrong. (I know this might seem terrible)

My objective is to see if Christianity, Judaism, and Islam will ever unite as common “believers” after Jesus’ return for judgement.

 

[TEPO]

Hi TEPO,

The parable of the Fig Tree pertains to a lesson: The owner of the vineyard of Fig trees (they were often planted in vineyards) represents God; the gardener is Jesus, and the fig trees represent Israel (as the Old Testament often demonstrated).

Israel turned their back on God, and the remaining two tribes (Benjamin and Judah - now known as the Jewish peoples) rejected Jesus, the messiah. God always promised that a remnant would be spared, and these were the first few thousands of Jewish people who converted to Christianity. God always kept His promises: it is the people who did not keep the covenant with God.

Recall that Jesus also told us that some of the original branches (some of the Jewish people) are cut off from the tree, however new branches (the gentile converts to Christianity and those who have converted) are now grafted on and are part of the tree. Jesus cautioned that if we didn’t bear fruit as well, we too could be cut off.

It is our disobedience and our lack of faith that will cause anyone to be cut off, just as the original branches were cut off because of lack of faith and rejection of the Messiah.

The ten lost tribes of Israel that were scattered among the Gentile nations hundreds of years ago and assimilated as Gentiles now (no longer known to be Israelites anymore) would receive the Good News of Jesus from the “Apostle of the Gentiles” - St. Paul. This way, those among the 10 lost tribes would hear and many would also convert, thus “all Israel will be saved” - the mystery that Paul spoke of.

So, many Jewish people and those “lost” Israelite tribes converted to Christianity, including many Gentiles.

We are all God’s children. No longer slave, Jew, or Gentile, but one under Christ.

blessings,

Amen, brother. Thank you for telling me about the 10 lost tribes I never knew this.

You are the first Catholic that I’ve met that actually will admit that there were “some” who were cut-off or cut-down from the tree.

Everyone else tries to make it seem like there is no punishment and that God forgives everyone for everything… We should all understand that this is not true.

 

[zarthan]

O.K. So God did not reject the Jewish people… Did He reject the Rabbi’s, or possibly the way’s in which the Rabbi’s were teaching…?

In other words, why did God divide.?

The Jewish people were not rejected. The spiritual authorities of the Jewish people were rejected for their rejection of God’s servants the prophets, and finally, for their rejection of God’s Son.

God established a new priesthood (the church, the body of Christ) whose high priest is our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[laszlo]

They did not recognized their time.

Few of them did, and they helped Jesus Christ to spread His new Covenant, an again a few of them before the end of the time will recognize and confess Him, the one who came in the time, and whom they missed on that time.

God carries out his plan either with us or without us.

 

[CEM5]

Amen, brother. Thank you for telling me about the 10 lost tribes I never knew this.

You are the first Catholic that I’ve met that actually will admit that there were “some” who were cut-off or cut-down from the tree.

Everyone else tries to make it seem like there is no punishment and that God forgives everyone for everything… We should all understand that this is not true.

Hello TEPO,

I hope this doesn’t change your opinion of me, but I am a “sister” not a “brother” (hehe- :curtsey:

And your welcome.

God bless you,

 

[manualman]

According to some well educated deduction on the part of the late Fr. Richard Nuehaus, close to 90% of the Jewish people became christians. WE are their descendents. When messiah came, the covenant with Israel did NOT end. The covenant EXPANDED to include all people’s everywhere. We’ve ALL been redeemed. But not all of us will be saved. That passage at the time it was spoken may have referred to those of Israel who experienced Jesus and rejected Him. But today, is rather expanded in meaning. IMO it also applies to those who have been baptised and received Grace, but failed to allow that Grace to transform them.

Much heavier message than just tsk tsking Jews, huh?

 

[TEPO]

The Jewish people were not rejected. The spiritual authorities of the Jewish people were rejected for their rejection of God’s servants the prophets, and finally, for their rejection of God’s Son.

God established a new priesthood (the church, the body of Christ) whose high priest is our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanks.

So unlike the present Church, the spiritual teachers of the Jewish people, were fallible.

Their understanding of truth was corrupt, and so God came down personally to ‘re-give’ His words of truth in the flesh… Personally.

Wow.

 

[TEPO]

Hello TEPO,

I hope this doesn’t change your opinion of me, but I am a “sister” not a “brother” (hehe- :curtsey:

And your welcome.

God bless you,

Ooops…

God bless you too, and thanks again!

 

[TEPO]

According to some well educated deduction on the part of the late Fr. Richard Nuehaus, close to 90% of the Jewish people became christians. WE are their descendents. When messiah came, the covenant with Israel did NOT end. The covenant EXPANDED to include all people’s everywhere.

Maybe not with Israel, but the Covenant with the Jewish religion did end! God did in fact cancel His covenant with the Jewish Church… Right…?

Because it does not include the doctrine of Jesus Christ and His Divinity.

We’ve ALL been redeemed. But not all of us will be saved. That passage at the time it was spoken may have referred to those of Israel who experienced Jesus and rejected Him. But today, is rather expanded in meaning. IMO it also applies to those who have been baptised and received Grace, but failed to allow that Grace to transform them.

Good point… I agree, it does also apply here.

 

[TEPO]

So in a nutshell, the Lord came to deliver His people from sin, but upon inspection of His Church, He found that the leaders did not recognize Him… So for a time, He displayed miracles and greatness in an attempt to fertilize the Church but to no avail they remained blind to Him, eventually becoming violent towards Him… The very one they worshipped. I believe that at the very time of His Church’s crucifixion of Him, when the winds changed, there marked the point in time that the period of fertilization had expired… There was a complete failure to produce fruit in that Church.

So God did not abandon the Jews… The Jews abandoned God.

As it was said: God came to “refine”.

Malachi
Chapter 3: 1-3Lo, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me; And suddenly there will come to the temple the LORD whom you seek, And the messenger of the covenant whom you desire. Yes, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts. But who will endure the day of his coming? And who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner’s fire, or like the fuller’s lye. He will sit refining and purifying (silver), and he will purify the sons of Levi, Refining them like gold or like silver that they may offer due sacrifice to the LORD.

 

[manualman]

Maybe not with Israel, but the Covenant with the Jewish religion did end! God did in fact cancel His covenant with the Jewish Church… Right…?

Because it does not include the doctrine of Jesus Christ and His Divinity.

The first covenant with Israel was never canceled, it was fulfilled. The original convenat was given to Israel to the level that they could comprehend God at the time. That covenant included the promise of a coming messiah. It did not include the full details of what that meant, but Jesus really was promised (just not by name).

When Jesus came, we often say that he established a “new covenant.” But perhaps for you it would be clearer to say that he EXPANDED the existing covenant. Covenants, by definition, don’t end. Those who fail to live up to a covenant are simply unfaithful. Don’t call God that. (cue thunder). God has fulfilled the covenant to Israel and has given them (and all humanity) an even greater one. See?