Did God cause this typhoon to strike the Philippines? (poll)

[catholictiger]

This is well established Church teaching:

Source: papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11RAPPR.HTM

Father Hardon
Source: therealpresence.org/archives/God/God_013.htm

Catholic Culture
Source: catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35763

I could keep going. Just google “Catholic preternatural gifts”.

we in on way disagree here but I think there is a disconnect between what we believe as natural and graced nature. I will explain in this next post.

 

[tonyrey]

This is not the teaching of Pope Pius XII on October 29, 1951, in his Allocution to Midwives, where he said that unbaptized children will not attain the beatific vision. (See above). Of course, this teaching has been changed since Vatican II so that we can hope that there is some way that they can, but it is not known with certainty., as I understand it to be.

An allocution is not an infallible doctrine.

 

[N0X3x]

Not sure if this has been brought up yet or not, but maybe God caused the typhoon in the Philippines because the nation is mostly Catholic. It is conceivable that, in such a nation, more souls would reach heaven.

 

[catholictiger]

I think you’re confused here. Bodily immortality is not supernatural. God created man as immortal in both body and soul. That’s our TRUE nature. We lost that and are now in a fallen state where our bodies must die. That’s why they are called PREternatural gifts and not SUPERnatural gifts.

It’s Church teaching that had we not sinned in the Garden, we would not have had to undergo bodily death.

I don’t believe I’m in disagreement with Catholic Teaching at all. I think what we should look at the latin etymology of the word Preternatural vs the etymology of the word supernatural.

First both words contain natural or in latin natura which means nature no disagreement here.

you claim there is a difference between preter and super in latin super comes from super which means above, and praeter which means beyond, they are both different words but when you put them with nature they seem to mean the same thing. So supernatural is above nature, while preternatural is beyond nature. What it clear from this that both these words mean something is not nature but more than nature. Now I’m not expert in etymology so I could be wrong but it seems to be that preternatural means beyond nature and not some idea of true nature or perfect nature. Perfect nature is not beyond nature rather it is the perfection of the nature.

But when we look at some other concepts in the Church I think it will show how bodily immortality is intact beyond nature and not the true nature and that God wrote death for both man and beast alike into creation, but God in his divine goodness allowed Adam and Eve to participate in the Divine Life and through this preternatural/supernatural interaction man becomes immortal. When man sinned he removed himself from the share in divine life which means he brought death on to himself which was natural to creation but not in God’s plan.

See the Catchecism on Man in Paradise

Thomas Aquinas also talks about this.

first and second left out due to length

Thirdly, a thing may be incorruptible on the part of its efficient cause; in this sense man was incorruptible and immortal in the state of innocence. For, as Augustine says (QQ. Vet. et Nov. Test. qu. 19 [Work of an anonymous author, among the supposititious works of St. Augustine): “God made man immortal as long as he did not sin; so that he might achieve for himself life or death.” For man’s body was indissoluble not by reason of any intrinsic vigor of immortality, but by reason of a **supernatural force given by God to the soul,

whereby it was enabled to preserve the body from all corruption so long as** it remained itself subject to God**. This entirely agrees with reason; for since the rational soul surpasses the capacity of corporeal matter, as above explained (76, 1), it was most properly endowed at the beginning with the power of preserving the body in a manner surpassing the capacity of corporeal matter.

Reply to Objection 1. A thing is said to be natural if it proceeds from the principles of nature. Now the essential principles of nature are form and matter. The form of man is his rational soul, which is, of itself, immortal: wherefore death is not natural to man on the part of his form. The matter of man is a body such as is composed of contraries, of which corruptibility is a necessary consequence, and in this respect death is natural to man. Now this condition attached to the nature of the human body results from a natural necessity, since it was necessary for the human body to be the organ of touch, and consequently a mean between objects of touch: and this was impossible, were it not composed of contraries, as the Philosopher states (De Anima ii, 11). On the other hand, this condition is not attached to the adaptability of matter to form because, if it were possible, since the form is incorruptible, its matter should rather be incorruptible. On the same way a saw needs to be of iron, this being suitable to its form and action, so that its hardness may make it fit for cutting. But that it be liable to rust is a necessary result of such a matter and is not according to the agent’s choice; for, if the craftsman were able, of the iron he would make a saw that would not rust. Now God Who is the author of man is all-powerful, wherefore when He first made man, He conferred on him the favor of being exempt from the necessity resulting from such a matter: which favor, however, was withdrawn through the sin of our first parents. **Accordingly death is both natural on account of a condition attaching to matter, and penal on account of the loss of the Divine favor preserving man from death **[Cf. I-II, 85, 6].

what is clear from all of this is that

1. Man’s soul is incorruptible or immortal by its nature
2. Matter is by its nature corruptible
3. Man is by his nature matter and form or Body and Soul
4. meaning by his nature Man’s Body will die but his soul will live on.
5. Therefore it is incorrect to say that by his nature man is immortal in both his body and his soul
6. Man becomes immortal when God bestows on him the grace of bodily immortality, it is not through his nature rather it is through his grace.
7. So man has bodily immortality before the fall (still not sure how this would work on earth which still has to deal with the laws of entropy meaning man would lose his home)
8. but when Adam and Eve sinned they were expled from the Garden of Eden and from the sharing of the divine life. They lost what they were given by grace and not by nature.

Man didn’t corrupt anything that he has by nature but he lost the gift that was given to him by God which is beyond nature itself.

 

[tonyrey]

Not sure if this has been brought up yet or not, but maybe God caused the typhoon in the Philippines because the nation is mostly Catholic. It is conceivable that, in such a nation, more souls would reach heaven.

God would not deliberately cause a disaster because it injures and kills men, women, children and animals indiscriminately. He is the loving Creator not an evil Destroyer

 

[tonyrey]

What is known for certainty is God’s love for us.

Nothing is impossible for God, nor must he follow his own rules, why do you have such little faith in God’s love?

I believe this kind of legalism will only serve to distance you from our lord and his love.

Remember what Jesus said about the Sabbath?

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Tomdstone]

God would not deliberately cause a disaster because it injures and kills men, women, children and animals indiscriminately. He is the loving Creator not an evil Destroyer

Is it outside of God’s power to prevent these catastrophes from happening?

 

[josh987654321]

Is it outside of God’s power to prevent these catastrophes from happening?

Indeed, didn’t he also have the power to come down from the cross?

I recall them saying the same things to Christ while he was on the cross, “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and save us!”
Gospel of Luke:

Luke 23:34-43

Jesus Is Nailed to a Cross

34-35 Jesus said, “Father, forgive these people! They don’t know what they’re doing.”

While the crowd stood there watching Jesus, the soldiers gambled for his clothes. The leaders insulted him by saying, “He saved others. Now he should save himself, if he really is God’s chosen Messiah!”

36 The soldiers made fun of Jesus and brought him some wine. 37 They said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself!”

38 Above him was a sign that said, “This is the King of the Jews.”

39 One of the criminals hanging there also insulted Jesus by saying, “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and save us!”

40 But the other criminal told the first one off, “Don’t you fear God? Aren’t you getting the same punishment as this man? 41 We got what was coming to us, but he didn’t do anything wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Remember me when you come into power!”

43 Jesus replied, “I promise that today you will be with me in paradise.”

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[catholictiger]

Is it outside of God’s power to prevent these catastrophes from happening?

no nothing is outside the power of God.

But God respects the freedom of the cosmos and of human so he allows natural process to occurs and usually doesn’t interfere. Sometimes God will heal someone through his grace of a bodily illness which will be outside of the natural means.

 

[josh987654321]

Is it outside of God’s power to prevent these catastrophes from happening?
josh987654321;11433566:

Indeed, didn’t he also have the power to come down from the cross?

I didn’t mean to say “indeed” as if it is outside of God’s power, as it’s not, because God is omnipotent.

I said “Indeed” because this is not something new, it’s the very same thing that was said to Christ as they made fun of him on the Cross and it’s the number one call of atheists today, it’s not an intellectual argument against God, but more of a rebellion, at the heart of atheism is usually a fist raised toward God from this lack of understanding between God’s omnipotance and ominiscience and those very same questions.

“If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself!”
“Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and save us!”
“He saved others. Now he should save himself, if he really is God’s chosen Messiah!”
"Gospel of Luke:

Luke 23:34-43

Jesus Is Nailed to a Cross

34-35 Jesus said, “Father, forgive these people! They don’t know what they’re doing.”

While the crowd stood there watching Jesus, the soldiers gambled for his clothes. The leaders insulted him by saying, “He saved others. Now he should save himself, if he really is God’s chosen Messiah!”

36 The soldiers made fun of Jesus and brought him some wine. 37 They said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself!”

38 Above him was a sign that said, “This is the King of the Jews.”

39 One of the criminals hanging there also insulted Jesus by saying, “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and save us!”

40 But the other criminal told the first one off, “Don’t you fear God? Aren’t you getting the same punishment as this man? 41 We got what was coming to us, but he didn’t do anything wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Remember me when you come into power!”

43 Jesus replied, “I promise that today you will be with me in paradise.”

Sorry to repeat myself, I just had to clarify the “indeed” bit as I didn’t want people to take it the wrong.

no nothing is outside the power of God.

I may not know the meaning of suffering, but I do know that it’s not because God doesn’t love us. “16 God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son” - John 3:16 and in turn the Son loved the world so much that he gave his own life for us (the love of Agape confirmed through works by the Father and the Son).

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[thequietsinger]

I’m sorry, but no. I haven’t read through the comments, but I will point out how hurtful and annoying it is for me to think that God would be responsible for such a tragedy. He isn’t punishing anyone, and He most certainly would not kill innocent people. Just my thoughts.

 

[tonyrey]

It is absolute nonsense which contradicts Christ’s teaching that God is a loving Father.

 

[tonyrey]

I didn’t mean to say “indeed” as if it is outside of God’s power, as it’s not, because God is omnipotent.

I said “Indeed” because this is not something new, it’s the very same thing that was said to Christ as they made fun of him on the Cross and it’s the number one call of atheists today, it’s not an intellectual argument against God, but more of a rebellion, at the heart of atheism is usually a fist raised toward God from this lack of understanding between God’s omnipotance and ominiscience and those very same questions.

“If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself!”
“Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and save us!”
“He saved others. Now he should save himself, if he really is God’s chosen Messiah!”

Sorry to repeat myself, I just had to clarify the “indeed” bit as I didn’t want people to take it the wrong.



I may not know the meaning of suffering, but I do know that it’s not because God doesn’t love us. “16 God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son” - John 3:16 and in turn the Son loved the world so much that he gave his own life for us (the love of Agape confirmed through works by the Father and the Son).

He certainly wouldn’t take the lives of those for whom He has given His own life!

 

[tonyrey]

no nothing is outside the power of God.

But God respects the freedom of the cosmos and of human so he allows natural process to occur and usually doesn’t interfere. Sometimes God will heal someone through his grace of a bodily illness which will be outside of the natural means.

“interfere” is the operative word!

 

[tonyrey]

Is it outside of God’s power to prevent these catastrophes from happening?

We cannot tell how many catastrophes God prevents but we do know that if He prevented every catastrophe the world would be topsyturvy!

 

[josh987654321]

I’m sorry, but no. I haven’t read through the comments, but I will point out how hurtful and annoying it is for me to think that God would be responsible for such a tragedy. He isn’t punishing anyone, and He most certainly would not kill innocent people. Just my thoughts.

Gospel of John:

John 9:1-3

Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind

9 As Jesus walked along, he saw a man who had been blind since birth. 2 Jesus’ disciples asked, “Teacher, why was this man born blind? Was it because he or his parents sinned?”

3 **“No, it wasn’t!” **Jesus answered. “But because of his blindness, you will see God work a miracle for him.

Please read this - From Sinai to Calvary

For more information on this book please read the opening pages of the book linked or go here.
Extract from the book "From Sinai to Calvary":

Jesus said: **“Contemplate this scene, My beloved, and learn that My own cannot march through life without a cross. 4) “Go and tell the world what you are learning and, if they want to silence you, shout even louder. Do this for the sake of the power of the love that unites you to Me, which is as united as these two pieces of wood that form an instrument of salvation for all of humanity.

1. “Tell the consecrated souls that the cross that they wear, is not only to adorn their chests or identify them superficially with Me. First they must gird themselves with the cross and learn to “make themselves comfortable” on it instead of running away from it. Tell them they cannot long for Tabor, if they have not first passed through Golgotha. It is here on the Cross where they will learn charity, humility, poverty of spirit and temperance in all acts of their lives. 6) “Assure them that I give proof and testimony that, the devil can be easily defeated from the experience of the cross. Contemplate Me: I am a true Man, in whom the flesh manifests its limitations, and true God, in demonstrating the relentless force of Agape Love.
2. “Pray for those who do not know of sufferings, for it is certain that they are not among My own…Observe these two condemned ones who flank Me and meditate on the ways that men carry their crosses. 8) “Some carry it with rage, with bitterness, amidst much grief. He who carries a cross in similar circumstances and with those sentiments, carries for sure a cross, which has no sense because instead of drawing him closer, it pushes him away from Me. Usually that is the cross of those who refuse to understand the meaning of suffering, which takes on supernatural dimensions. That is the cross of the thief at My left, it is the cross which will always be heavy and will never be able to redeem.
3. “Dismas, on My right, accepts his cross with resignation and even with dignity; he assumes it at first because he has no other recourse. But suddenly, when he recognizes Me and knows that I Am the Son of God, he accepts that cross, acknowledging himself as a sinner, and asking that through it, Mercy remembers him. 10) “Finally, you have Me here in front of you, embracing My redeeming Cross to teach all of you to carry yours. I invite you to be co-redeemers with Me, making reparation for your own sins and those of all mankind. Know that this way of carrying the cross is reflected in your conduct, when before you are difficulties and pains and through them you draw closer to Me and you profit from them to give testimony before men. When you embrace your cross, you can feel that the only thing you desire is strength, because the thirst for souls consumes you.”**

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Tomdstone]

We cannot tell how many catastrophes God prevents but we do know that if He prevented every catastrophe the world would be topsyturvy!

Would it be possible to allow the catastrophes but to place children in a position of safety?

 

[tonyrey]

Would it be possible to allow the catastrophes but to place children in a position of safety?

Of course! Who would place them there, how would they know where to place them and what reason would they give for doing so?

 

[thequietsinger]

Please read this - From Sinai to Calvary

For more information on this book please read the opening pages of the book linked or go here.

Thank you for reading
Josh

I plan on reading what you asked me to, as the link is very intriguing, but may I ask why you want me to read it? I don’t mean to sound rude or anything, I’m just curious.

 

[Aloysium]

Re: josh987654321

other translations:
John 9:3

• “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
• Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him.

I would not agree that the man was created blind for the sole purpose of allowing Jesus to perform a miracle.
If this were to be the case, it would not address the question as to whether infirmity is the result of sin.

People, myself included, go through life oblivious to God’s gifts and miracles.
You realize how totally amazing vision is when you lose it. I can actually read this - Hallelujah!!
The knowledge that there exist people without the blessings that most of us share, makes us more aware of God’s wondrous works.