Did God cause this typhoon to strike the Philippines? (poll)

[josh987654321]

I plan on reading what you asked me to, as the link is very intriguing, but may I ask why you want me to read it? I don’t mean to sound rude or anything, I’m just curious.

Not just you, but I would also love everyone else following this thread to read it too, as Katya’s books have deepened me in the Catholic faith in enourmous ways!

I came accross them from my Dad, when he watched a documentry on TV in 1999 called “Signs from God” in which the famous Australian journalist ‘Mike Willesee’ set out to prove that miracles can’t happen and don’t happen, in which he managed to film Katya Riva’s stigmata and many other miracles that took place, all of which was presented in the documentry that changed his life forever and many others, called “Signs from God” (Mike Willesee is now a devout Roman Catholic) you can watch the most part of that documentry here free online along with much more information on it and all of Katya’s books free to read and download online in pdf.

If you would like more background on it please read this short pdf.

The documentary, 'A PLEA TO HUMANITY", presents some of the most remarkable happenings in modern times which will have important implications for both science and religion.

In Cochabamba, Bolivia, a statue of the Crucified Christ, inexplicably has wept tears and blood.

In the same city, Katya Rivas has had appear in her hands, in her feet, and on her forehead, wounds similar to those believed to have been suffered by Christ in His Crucifixion, the stigmata.

Also, Katya, who had never read the bible, and who did not complete her high school education, has written, without theological error, hundreds of pages of profound theological teachings and biblical commentaries which she says are dictated to her by Christ.
The story of these happenings was presented in a Fox Network prime time special called “Signs from God” which was broadcast throughout the United States in July 1999 and subsequently in a number of other countries.

Here is a list with the links to Katya’s short books free to read and download online (my favourite being “The Holy Mass” and “In Adoration” but they are all truly remarkable and invaluable!)

Books on the Eucharist
The Holy Mass - loveandmercy.org/Eng-HM-Reg.pdf
Holy Hour - loveandmercy.org/Eng-HH-Reg.pdf
In Adoration - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IA-Reg.pdf

Books on Spiritual Testimonies & Devotions
Divine Providence - loveandmercy.org/Eng-DP-Reg.pdf
My Broken Christ Walks Over the Waters - loveandmercy.org/Eng-MBC-Reg.pdf
Praying the Rosary - loveandmercy.org/Eng-PR-Reg.pdf
The Visible Face of the Invisible God - loveandmercy.org/Eng-VF-Reg.pdf

Books on the Passion
The Passion - loveandmercy.org/Eng-TP-Reg.pdf
The Stations of The Cross - loveandmercy.org/Eng-SOC-Reg.pdf
From Sinai to Calvary - loveandmercy.org/Eng-FSC-Reg.pdf
I Have Given My Life for You - loveandmercy.org/Eng-IHG-Reg.pdf

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[smichhertz]

For, as Augustine says (QQ. Vet. et Nov. Test. qu. 19 [Work of an anonymous author, among the supposititious works of St. Augustine): “God made man immortal as long as he did not sin; so that he might achieve for himself life or death.” For man’s body was indissoluble not by reason of any intrinsic vigor of immortality, but by reason of a **supernatural force given by God to the soul,

Okay, I’ll bite. Let’s assume you’re completely correct. Bodily immortality is a supernatural gift. Isn’t that kind of irrelevant? Once we admit bodily immortality than we have to admit typhoons would not have harmed us prior to the fall.

You provided a very well researched post, but none of it is really relevant to my points. Actually, it confirms it. Man had bodily immortality prior to the fall. Whether or not it was supernatural or anything else is a discussion of semantics.

 

[catholictiger]

Okay, I’ll bite. Let’s assume you’re completely correct. Bodily immortality is a supernatural gift. Isn’t that kind of irrelevant? Once we admit bodily immortality than we have to admit typhoons would not have harmed us prior to the fall.

You provided a very well researched post, but none of it is really relevant to my points. Actually, it confirms it. Man had bodily immortality prior to the fall. Whether or not it was supernatural or anything else is a discussion of semantics.

I can agree with you if you say that man’s bodily immortality allows him not to be hurt by natural disasters

but I can’t agree that man caused natural disasters that natural disasters are effected by the fall. Somehow God protect man from what we call natural disasters.

I still hold on to this view

Natural Disasters are not actually natural disasters they are the natural processes of the universe that because of the fall we see them as disasters. Somehow these natural disasters cause no harm to the human body. So the fall changes our view of these events not actually have such a big impact on the natural processes of the world that these things happen after they sinned and didn’t before they sinned.

one more thing I still have the question if man has bodily immortality and lived it out on the earth how could this be possible when in some million years or so the sun will engulf the earth and make life impossible.

One more thing I believe my post was relevant. You suggested that it was the true nature of man to be immortal, but I strongly disagree with this, sure it doesn’t change your idea about natural disasters changing the fall. But the idea that preternatural means true nature is wrong so I addressed a wrong understanding.

so again I sum up

Death is natural to man

God gave us the gift of bodily immortality

natural disasters are not caused by mans fall and are rather part the nature of the universe.

it has no impact on man but this would be a supernatural occurrence and nothing natural.

you have said time and time again that this pre fall state is the perfect nature of man but I strongly disagree with this, it is beyond nature or above nature to be immortal.

 

[smichhertz]

I can agree with you if you say that man’s bodily immortality allows him not to be hurt by natural disasters

but I can’t agree that man caused natural disasters that natural disasters are effected by the fall. Somehow God protect man from what we call natural disasters.

Okay, so what about this: Man’s fall did not cause natural disasters, but man’s fall caused the ability for natural disasters to harm him. We lost bodily immortality, therefore death / suffering the Philippines is the fault of man and not God.

Is that something you can get behind?

 

[catholictiger]

Okay, so what about this: Man’s fall did not cause natural disasters, but man’s fall caused the ability for natural disasters to harm him. We lost bodily immortality, therefore death / suffering the Philippines is the fault of man and not God.

Is that something you can get behind?

yes somewhat

I think what we should add into this is that the laws of the universe which allow things to hit the Philippines are result of God’s primary casualty, and the natural processes of the universe are the reason it hit the Philippines. Man’s fall is the reason it causes harm.

God still in a way causes the strike on the Philippines but not in a secondary way but a primary way.

note: I see how this follows from the understanding that God gave man bodily immortality and this would somehow keep him safe from disaster. there is still a disconnect in my brain in how could it be possible that we could be protected from this.(knowing what is true about science and philosophy)

 

[smichhertz]

yes somewhat

I think what we should add into this is that the laws of the universe which allow things to hit the Philippines are result of God’s primary casualty, and the natural processes of the universe are the reason it hit the Philippines. Man’s fall is the reason it causes harm.

God still in a way causes the strike on the Philippines but not in a secondary way but a primary way.

Yes, I can get behind that. I think that’s a good way to merge what St. Thomas Aquinas said, with preternatural gifts.

note: I see how this follows from the understanding that God gave man bodily immortality and this would somehow keep him safe from disaster. there is still a disconnect in my brain in how could it be possible that we could be protected from this.(knowing what is true about science and philosophy)

Agreed, there is a disconnect. Problem is only two people experienced it and we have no idea what it was like. Perhaps it was something like the resurrected body of Jesus that could both walk through walls and eat fish? So a projective coming towards us from a typhoon was pass through us harmlessly?

I suppose we’ll never really know.

 

[josh987654321]

Re: josh987654321

other translations:
John 9:3

• “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
• Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him.

Thank you.

I would not agree that the man was created blind for the sole purpose of allowing Jesus to perform a miracle.

I don’t know. Please read 1)

If this were to be the case, it would not address the question as to whether infirmity is the result of sin.

I don’t believe Infirmity is the result of sin, that’s why I quoted the passage that I did, where Jesus said that this man was not born blind because of any sin that he or his parents committed.

People, myself included, go through life oblivious to God’s gifts and miracles.
You realize how totally amazing vision is when you lose it. I can actually read this - Hallelujah!!
The knowledge that there exist people without the blessings that most of us share, makes us more aware of God’s wondrous works.

1) I may not know the meaning of suffering, but I do know that it’s not because God doesn’t love us. “16 God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son” - John 3:16 and in turn the Son loved the world so much that he gave his own life for us (the love of Agape confirmed through works by the Father and the Son).

Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins etc all focus on this in their books on atheism, they begin their books with a catastrophe or some evil act and than they say “If God is Omnipotent, than he chose to let this happen, is this a God you should believe in?” notice how it’s not an intellectual argument against God at all, but rather an emotional one playing on our lack of understanding.

I find it amazing at just how similar their arguments are with the ones from Christ’s time, it’s the same old rebellion against God that has always been.

It’s not something new at all, it’s the very same thing that was said to Christ as they made fun of him on the Cross and it’s the number one call of atheists today, at the heart of atheism is usually a fist raised toward God from this lack of understanding between God’s omnipotance and the reality of suffering.

Those very same taunts.

“If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself!”
“Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and save us!”
“He saved others. Now he should save himself, if he really is God’s chosen Messiah!”

I believe the Gospel passage this week is a perfect one to reflect on with this subject.
Gospel of Luke:

Luke 23:34-43

Jesus Is Nailed to a Cross

34-35 Jesus said, “Father, forgive these people! They don’t know what they’re doing.”

While the crowd stood there watching Jesus, the soldiers gambled for his clothes. The leaders insulted him by saying, “He saved others. Now he should save himself, if he really is God’s chosen Messiah!”

36 The soldiers made fun of Jesus and brought him some wine. 37 They said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself!”

38 Above him was a sign that said, “This is the King of the Jews.”

39 One of the criminals hanging there also insulted Jesus by saying, “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and save us!”

40 But the other criminal told the first one off, “Don’t you fear God? Aren’t you getting the same punishment as this man? 41 We got what was coming to us, but he didn’t do anything wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Remember me when you come into power!”

43 Jesus replied, “I promise that today you will be with me in paradise.”

If anyone is struggling with this, I strongly encourage them to reflect on the extract I provided in my last post (more info here), in which shows the two ways that men carry their crosses, our crosses are inevitable, we will all have to carry them at some stage in our life, but I certainly know which cross I will prefer to carry, and that is Dismas’ cross, humbly recognising himself as a sinner and asking that though his sufferings, mercy remembers him.

“Humility opens the doors to the kingdom of heaven.”

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[catholictiger]

Yes, I can get behind that. I think that’s a good way to merge what St. Thomas Aquinas said, with preternatural gifts.

Agreed, there is a disconnect. Problem is only two people experienced it and we have no idea what it was like. Perhaps it was something like the resurrected body of Jesus that could both walk through walls and eat fish? So a projective coming towards us from a typhoon was pass through us harmlessly?

I suppose we’ll never really know.

we seem to have come to common ground, I still think there is a disconnect in some areas, I could be wrong I’m still learning lots about the faith but from my current understanding I argue what I argue

God Bless.

 

[smichhertz]

we seem to have come to common ground, I still think there is a disconnect in some areas, I could be wrong I’m still learning lots about the faith but from my current understanding I argue what I argue

God Bless.

Well how about that? An argument on an online forum that ended in an AGREEMENT!



God Bless you, too. Thanks for all your (name removed by moderator)ut!

 

[catholictiger]

Well how about that? An argument on an online forum that ended in an AGREEMENT!



God Bless you, too. Thanks for all your (name removed by moderator)ut!

no problem, this is obviously a complex issue it is good we could at-least find some common ground.

 

[bben15]

It was sort of like the Black Death. God normally allows nature to take its course, but helps people that pray to him.

 

[tonyrey]

And even those who don’t pray!

But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Matthew 5:45

 

[wcknight]

It rains on both the righteous and the wicked. Natural disasters happens and some are spared and for some their time is up. The good go to Heaven, the wicked go elsewhere.

 

[Tomdstone]

It rains on both the righteous and the wicked. Natural disasters happens and some are spared and for some their time is up.

This seems to be a problem for some atheists. They will ask why God appears to be so far away and does not answer prayers of the faithful to have mercy and be spared of a natural disaster.

 

[wcknight]

As bad as the storm in the Philippines was, It did not hit the major population centers. Otherwise the death toll would have been much higher than it was. If it hit Manila the toll would have been many thousands more.

Disasters like this are opportunities for us to prove just how much love and charity we have for others. The Phillipines is mostly a catholic country so there is no excuse for all of us not to help our brothers in Christ.

 

[oldcelt]

This seems to be a problem for some atheists. They will ask why God appears to be so far away and does not answer prayers of the faithful to have mercy and be spared of a natural disaster.

Why is that a problem for atheists? Have you ever seen a storm that spares only believers?
They are random acts of nature that do what they do. The earth is a dangerous place.

 

[Tomdstone]

Why is that a problem for atheists?.

Because atheists do not believe that in the end, God will make everything right and justice will be served.

 

[oldcelt]

Because atheists do not believe that in the end, God will make everything right and justice will be served.

That’s true, atheists (for the obvious reason) and deists believe that things simply are what they are and that God has not one thing to do with any of them. So this issue is really no problem. Justice is a concept created by the observant mind of mankind in our world.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

In as far as God is the ultimate creator/maker/director/power of all that is, directly or indirectly, except ‘Himself’, God must have allowed the advent of the typhoon and its consequent impact on the Philippines.

It is not for us to judge God in a ‘human’ way, since humans can only see a small frame, and imperfectly at that, of the whole Divine picture and plan; and most certainly lack the full competence and authority of God to judge - and even less so to condemn it.

When, please God we reach Heaven, He will likely enlighten us more fully.

 

[O_S_C]

Simple question, did God, in his infinite love, wisdom, power and benevolence cause that typhoon to smack a hugely Catholic country like the Philippines?

Of course he did. God causes everything that exists. But he did not cause it by miracle, that is by direct intervention, but through creating and keeping in existance our autonomous material world.

And it is not possible to have such a world without destruction and suffering: ask the scientists if they can find any suffering that has no natural cause and thus is unecessary!