Did God Create Evil

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I think evil could be defined as any act outside the will of God-or IOW outside of the order God created. Satans’ act would easily qualify.
Indeed, Evil is highly related to sin, in which sin is deliberate disobediance to God in Will, for if we sin, we are further from God, but I’m just looking upon scripture at this time, and yes whilst Genesis has it’s symbolism, it does impose an interesting question.

As I stated in the post prior to this, I quoted Isaiah, and the hebrew term for evil, being “rah” such as:

“wicked”, “bad”, “hurt”, “harm”, “ill”, “sorrow”, “mischief”, “displeased”, “adversity”, “affliction”, “trouble”, “calamity”, “grievous”, “misery”, and “trouble.”

Which I will acknowledge can tear down my Isaiah quotation with no problems, but what about when we look at Genesis?

God bless you.

Chris.
 
I always start with the essence of God - what and who existed before anything else existed - ONLY God existed before the creation of the universe.

In the very essence and holiness of God before creation - did evil exist?

In ACTUALITY - No
In POTENTIALITY - Yes

God’s knowledge of Himself in His Absolute Perfection of Being included an understanding of evil. But knowledge of something does not mean it actually exists. Evil itself did not exist - onlly the knowledge of evil. God’s knowing of evil was that of something that existed in Potentiality (something that was possible).

Evil DID NOT exist in God’s Actuality. In God’s very essence before the creation of the world - ONLY Good existed. This Good is now visible in a Person - Jesus Christ. He is the WORD of God made flesh. He is all that the Father Knows and Loves. He is Goodness Itself.
 
To which few individuals are you referring? Aren’t we all sinners?

Inquiringly,
Mick
👍
Of course we are all sinners, Mick, but I was responding to the statement that all evil is due to sin, presumably that of our first ancestors because it implies that sin preceded both moral and physical evil - (even though suffering and death had already occurred in the animal kingdom if one accepts the theory of evolution!).
 
God certainly knows what He is doing. He also expects us to use our power of reason and not evade problems by pleading ignorance. Obviously we cannot understand everything but that doesn’t mean we cannot understand anything. Great thinkers like St Thomas Aquinas have dedicated their lives to increasing our understanding of Christianity. We have an obligation to answer to the best of our ability objections to the faith. That is one of the reasons why this website exists.
I am not saying that we should not exercise our intellects to understand things. God gave us this faculty to be used. And yes, completely agree, we should use it to the utmost.

But there will come a time when no matter how hard we try we will hit a wall because the simple truth is our intellectual powers are limited.

I can’t remember the name of the priest but he gave this example. If we are viewing a huge mural of pointilist painting up close with our nose almost pressed against the painting, what we see is a hodge podge blur of colours. But stand far away from it enough to have the entire mural in view and the whole painting suddenly makes sense.

The problem of evil in this world is the same. We are too close to it for us to truly make heads or tails about it. And the only thing that is true is that God knows what He is on about. We don’t. We are privy to some of His plans but not its entirety. So this is when we need to bow down in humitlity and accept that we do not know but it does not matter because God does. And He is the one doing the driving. It is hard to explain the suffering of the innocent but this will only make sense if we accept that God is in control.

From my own life experience I can explain it this way.

My niece was born with a big lump on her cheek and the doctors suggested they operate while still young so that when she grows up there will be no scarring. My sister and brother in law agreed. I think my niece was operated on at the age of 1.

When they put her in a straight jacket to stop her moving she cried in terror and pleaded with her cries to her dad to put a stop to whatever was happening to her. Her little heart was broken when dad did not come to her aid. After the operation she refused to let him hold her. The feeling of betrayal was written all over her hurt little face. It was a necessary operation she did not understand.

I think sometimes we are like that too. We do not understand and expect God to acquiece to our demands for answers.
The fact remains that if all evil in the universe were the consequence of sin God would be unjust.
Why would God be unjust if because of our own sin physical evil results. If a mother smokes and gives birth to a baby with defects do you blame that on God?
Why would He allow the whole of creation to suffer and be punished on account of a few individuals?
But He is not punishing them on account of a few individuals. Christ was very clear about that.

If someone in the train I am on ran amuck and started slashing everyone in view, I would not consider it a punishment should I end up being one of the victims.

If we hark back to Genesis, their fallen state is not a punishment for sin. It is a consequence of sin. Disobedience has consequences.

A priest (can’t remember his name) defined sin as a refusal to let God be God.
Human beings are certainly affected by the sins of previous generations but that is not why animals and beings on other planets suffer and die. Suffering and death are the inevitable consequences of life in a physical environment. Jesus told us to fear those who kill the soul, not the body. There is no need to invoke moral evil to explain physical evil…
I am not so sure about this. I suggest again that if you get the chance read "Why does God Permi Evil by Dom Bruno Web.
 
I always start with the essence of God - what and who existed before anything else existed - ONLY God existed before the creation of the universe.

In the very essence and holiness of God before creation - did evil exist?
V
V
the WORD of God made flesh. He is all that the Father Knows and Loves. He is Goodness Itself.
Very well said!👍
 
Didn’t God create evil when it was actually present in the knowledge of Good and Evil?

What Satan did was, yes free will, but when we hear in Genesis of an implementation of Knowledge of both Good and Evil, what do we make of that?

This is interesting to discuss, hope to hear.

God Bless.

Chris.
My opinion only. I think the meaning of knowledge of Good and Evil in Genesis is that once they eat of the tree, then they will know evil in the sense of actually being conversant with evil. Not intellectual but experiential.

And this is where I come back to a point I raised earlier. That this is all about pride.

Adam and Eve in deciding to eat the fruit was in fact saying by their action that it was them not God who will decide what is good and what is evil. They are refusing to let God be God. They want to usurp that power.

Sin is sin because God said so.
 
SSTeacher;5151432:
To which few individuals are you referring? Aren’t we all
sinners?

Inquiringly,
Mick
:thumbsup:Of course we are all sinners, Mick, but I was responding to the statement that all evil is due to sin, presumably that of our first ancestors because it implies that sin preceded both moral and physical evil – (even though suffering and death had already occurred in the animal kingdom if one accepts the theory of evolution!).
Oh, I see. Forgive me for being such a thicko.:doh2:

Sluggishly,
Mick
👍
 
My opinion only. I think the meaning of knowledge of Good and Evil in Genesis is that once they eat of the tree, then they will know evil in the sense of actually being conversant with evil. Not intellectual but experiential.

And this is where I come back to a point I raised earlier. That this is all about

Adam and Eve in deciding to eat the fruit was in fact saying by their action that it was them not God who will decide what is good and what is evil. They are refusing to let God be God. They want to usurp that power.

Sin is sin because God said so.

The myth of Adam and Eve’s choice of evil conveys a truth based on an undeniable historical fact. At some point in time it must have dawned on human beings that there is a difference between good and evil - and that is when they became morally responsible for their decisions.

Sin is not sin simply because God said so. Otherwise God could have decreed that it is a sin to love others! Sin is sin because it conflicts with divine goodness and frustrates His Will.
 
I believe the lesson God knows humanity needs to learn-what Adam and Eve missed-is that evil, ultimately, is the absence of Him. Nothing in His creation works without Him and man and angels have the opportunity or freedom to accept or reject this, thereby choosing life or death. IOW, the evil which is known in this life as a result of the fall is the very separation or exile from God that was the direct consequence of rejecting His will. God was rejected as God. Separation from God is the death of man and all other evil we experience or know here on earth flows from this first one.
 
I have not read this entire thread, so if I repeat a point that has already been made, please forgive me.

There is no doubt in my mind that Love was preeminent when it comes to the act of creation. Evil is simply parasitical and exists only because Love exists.

Love is able to acknowledge and respond to evil, yet evil acknowledges only itself and lives solely to usurp and overtake Love for its own self interest.

1 Peter 4:8:
“Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.”

Love vs. Evil is paradoxical only when Love is preeminent. It’s an oxymoron when evil is given preeminence.

Compare Love to the elder widow who is generous and kind with her neighbors, and evil to the cunning opportunist that seeks to take advantage of her kindness.
 
The myth of Adam and Eve’s choice of evil conveys a truth based on an undeniable historical fact. At some point in time it must have dawned on human beings that there is a difference between good and evil - and that is when they became morally responsible for their decisions.

Sin is not sin simply because God said so. Otherwise God could have decreed that it is a sin to love others! Sin is sin because it conflicts with divine goodness and frustrates His Will.
When He ordered the mass killing in the book of Kings, was God sinning? That was murder after all.
 
There is no doubt in my mind that Love was preeminent when it comes to the act of creation. Evil is simply parasitical and exists only because Love exists.
Very well said. Love can exist without evil - but evil cannot exist without love.

What is NOT corrupt does not depend on what has become corrupted.
What is corrupt depends on what is not corrupt.

(A) comes before (B) - not (B) before (A).
(B) depends on (A) to exist.
(A) does not depend on (B) to exist.

Evil is Goodness that has been corrupted.
 
I believe the lesson God knows humanity needs to learn-what Adam and Eve missed-is that evil, ultimately, is the absence of Him. Nothing in His creation works without Him and man and angels have the opportunity or freedom to accept or reject this, thereby choosing life or death. IOW, the evil which is known in this life as a result of the fall is the very separation or exile from God that was the direct consequence of rejecting His will. God was rejected as God. Separation from God is the death of man and all other evil we experience or know here on earth flows from this first one.
I like that phrase “God was rejected as God”. As Gerald Hughes put it, sin is a refusal to allow God to be God. So in the end it all boils down, the fierce demand for self determination. I call this the unholy trinity of I/Me/Myself.
 
God certainly knows what He is doing. He also expects us to use our power of reason and not evade problems by pleading ignorance. Obviously we cannot understand everything but that doesn’t mean we cannot understand anything. Great thinkers like St Thomas Aquinas have dedicated their lives to increasing our understanding of Christianity. We have an obligation to answer to the best of our ability objections to the faith. That is one of the reasons why this website exists.

The fact remains that if all evil in the universe were the consequence of sin God would be unjust. Why would He allow the whole of creation to suffer and be punished on account of a few individuals? Human beings are certainly affected by the sins of previous generations but that is not why animals and beings on other planets suffer and die. Suffering and death are the inevitable consequences of life in a physical environment. Jesus told us to fear those who kill the soul, not the body. There is no need to invoke moral evil to explain physical evil…
I like your first premise: “He also expects us to use our power of reason and not evade problems…We have an obligation to answer to the best of our ability objections to the faith…” If I may add: When we find God we are compelled to make use of our reason to know Him more. I believe the word “compell” is too small; we are excited, enthusiastic to know Him more. When we find God’s manifestation as His Son, Jesus Christ, we are ignited with the fire of Reason to know Him better. It is close to falling in love with another person. We want to know them and all about them. I believe this phenomenon (spelling) is the seqway from knowing God exist from pure reason to encountering Him personnaly which only happens from revelation; i.e., grace.👍

Now, regarding your second paragraph. I need this to be clarified. I hope you are right, but the Truth is the Truth. For example, I would rather be a Baptist but I am stuck with having to live with the true Chruch - Catholic. I have too much data and rational to provide to satisfy this premise. I use it only as an example. But regarding your premise in the second paragraph, what proof do you have? What data? What rational?
 
•(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
QUOTE]

The word RAH or ra’ “bad” or “evil” is found in Strong’s (Protestant) Concordance on page 264. It is much too long for me to type out here; however, in interrupting Is 45:7 it (Strong’s) writes, “(8) Yehweh desccribes His actions by saying,”…I made peace, and create evil (RA)…" (8) moral “evil” is not intended in this context, but rather the antithesis of of SHALOM (“peace; welfare; well-being”). (8b) The whole verse affirms that as absolute Sovereign, the Lord creates a universe governed by a moral order. Calamity and misfortune will surely ensue from the wickedness of ungodly men. (8c) When He purposely withdraws His powerful hand, resorting to providence and sovereignty, and leaves the situation to ungodly men, He has created a situation wherein peace and wholesomeness will not stand. (8d) The ungodly men will wreck the peace and extablish that which is poor, less than His refection, and hurtful to all considered.

I have a great deal of respect for my Protestant brothers, but do learned Catholic’s agree with this?

And whether “yes” or “no” how can these interruptions be made about RA when in other contexg in the Bible it is clearly defined as “evil” or “bad.” I am afraid to answer this would take years of Hebrew (ancient Hebrew at that!) study. My solution is to find someone with authority that is Catholic to clarify.:confused:
 
Very well said. Love can exist without evil - but evil cannot exist without love.

What is NOT corrupt does not depend on what has become corrupted.
What is corrupt depends on what is not corrupt.

(A) comes before (B) - not (B) before (A).
(B) depends on (A) to exist.
(A) does not depend on (B) to exist.

Evil is Goodness that has been corrupted.
I think you put it better than I did. 🙂

It would be like stating that error came before truth or death preceded life. As you put it, one is dependent upon the other. And while there is a definite connection between these two conditions or forces, it is too great of a leap of logic or reason to consider them equals in every sense of the word.

As you put it, (B) depends on (A) for survival and existence.
 
But regarding your premise in the second paragraph, what proof do you have? What data? What rational?
Sin is the deliberate choice of evil by a person. It may adversely affect others beside that person. It may even ultimately have far-reaching effects on human beings, the environment and other forms of life. - like a decision to launch a nuclear missile. But there is no reason to attribute every single case of suffering and death on this planet to the initial choice of evil by a few persons. It is not even necessary to do so because suffering and death can be readily explained by natural causes which are necessary for life.

If all evil in the universe were the consequence of sin it would be due to an arbitrary decision by God. If that decision is not unjust then we have no basis for regarding God as just, let alone loving and merciful. It would amount to a retrospective punishment for every living creature - given that suffering and death occurred for millions of years before human beings appeared on this earth. What would be a plausible reason for supposing that a loving Father chooses to inflict pain, misery and random destruction on His own children? Why would it be necessary? Until that question is answered satisfactorily there is no reason to regard physical evil as a punishment by God. Jesus told us to fear those who kill the soul, not the body, precisely because physical death is inevitable whereas spiritual death is not.
 
God created Satan as a angel. Angels have free will, and Satan fell from grace because he chose not to be with God; out of his envy of mankind. And because he continues to envy humans, he tempts us to do the same(tempts us to distance ourselves from God by sinning and breaking His commandments).

Even though Satan has fallen from grace, he retains his angelic power and intelligence. That is why he is able to tempt us. God only permits this because He gave us a free will. Without free will you cannot have love, and God is love. :angel1:
This is very true.
 
What would be a plausible reason for supposing that a loving Father chooses to inflict pain, misery and random destruction on His own children? Why would it be necessary? Until that question is answered satisfactorily there is no reason to regard physical evil as a punishment by God. Jesus told us to fear those who kill the soul, not the body, precisely because physical death is inevitable whereas spiritual death is not.
But according to Catholic teaching both moral and physical evil entered mans’ reality as a result of the fall-either one causing pain and suffering. Man was created immortal but on the condition that he did not sin. And it could be said that moral evil-or sin-causes more pain and suffering anyway so the question still remains-why would a loving father allow sin to reign freely? My belief is that the conditions existing in this world are, together with revelation, intended to be formative for man rather than strictly punitive. The Catechism states that suffering can best be understood and accepted by us in light of Jesus’ passion and resurrection-His own suffering, death-and triumph over death.
 
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