A
Alchemist
Guest
And what makes life have an egocentric purpose?
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D
Damascus
Guest
When your whole being is focused on what is in it for me type of thought.
Like a cat.
A
Alchemist
Guest
So if I were to help someone out, but only on certain conditions, would that be just or unjust?
D
Damascus
Guest
Alchemist, brother,
I must admit I am very tierd now and can not go on.
But- I will be happy to talk to you about this tomorrow. Its morning here already, and I need to knock out.
But you are very interesting. Refreshing in fact.
But please dont take that cat comment too seriously. That was a overtierd joke that was not funny. (disclaimer for those who will flame me for bashing cats)
Good night brother.
I will be back God willing.
Dont deserve it, but I hope I will see tomorrow.
A
Alchemist
Guest
Also what about the slaves in the Southern states? They had the choice to disobey their masters as well. If they did disobey their masters they would be beaten. But they still had the free will, either to work, or not to work.
God will allow us to sin, but then death awaits us then. And we have to do things his way, or else we’re condemned to eternal death.
God will allow us to sin, but then death awaits us then. And we have to do things his way, or else we’re condemned to eternal death.
C
CNormal
Guest
What is justice? You ask questions that the greatest minds and writers have tackled and I can’t come close to their answers. In a few words, maybe “justice” is basic and compelling fairness. It can be tempered by mercy but a world without justice is a hateful chaos. (I find a trend in that direction in the thinking of those (even in the Church) who are so blindly against the death penalty for murderers but that is another subject).
As I said earlier, these are fundamental questions. I spoke of our (vast) inferiority to God. It is an undeniable fact. That he has chosen to adopt, to befriend us is wholly to his credit. Maybe I am wrong but was it Milton who put the words in the mouth of Lucifer, “Better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven” or something like that.
Rather than abstractions, maybe I can speak of my own experiences with “love” relationships - some mimicking what mine should be with God. Jesus clearly told us to think of God as our Father - in fact as our “Daddy” - an affectionate form. If I were to insult and utterly reject my Father, the ways he has taught me for my own good and all the good that he has given to me should there be no serious consequences? Minor transgressions, short-lived falling out, etc., can be forgiven but there needs to be a line somewhere. Why? Justice dictates this, especially in light of my (hypothetical) siblings who are loyal and work hard to do my Father’s will. Does the fact that there are negative consequences for my behavior take away my free will? Does it make me, de facto, a slave? I don’t think so.
If a slave in the old South “loves” his “Massah” who takes care of him and loves him as a brother or a son, it is not a bad thing. Sure, they should be equals in the legal sense and they could have been in nearly every sense if it weren’t for the accidents of their births. Sure maybe in some egalitarian fantasy world, we are all created equal in every way but that is fantasy and not to be taken as reality. More to the point, God is NOT our equal and never could be. And no amount of protesting or pouting will make him so. It only makes us smaller and juvenile. Considering Lucifer’s qualities and abilities, he certainly would have had more justification than we for demanding equality with God. God is merciful but he is just and he is nobody’s patsy.
Stepping back a bit, let me say that I have a background in physical science and can relate to thinking in those terms. Science is fabulous and has many answers but none to the really important questions of life. You are intelligent enough to ask those questions, unlike too many who don’t bother. I like to think of the solution to life’s important questions as a set of equations. Not one equation but a set of multiple, coupled equations. When we find “the solution” we laugh and think, “How easy it should have been. It was really so simple and it all makes sense to me now.” Until we do, it is a frustrating maze.
You have asked questions associated with one of these important equations. It doesn’t really have a simple solution independent of all the other equations but only in conjunction with them. But when they are all seen standing there and solved together with one leading to the other and the other, it is a beautiful thing and very satisfying. But you will never find the solution to any of them if you don’t read and listen to the wisdom of those who have come before us and to the Church and to Jesus both in your heart and in your mind.
God bless you.
As I said earlier, these are fundamental questions. I spoke of our (vast) inferiority to God. It is an undeniable fact. That he has chosen to adopt, to befriend us is wholly to his credit. Maybe I am wrong but was it Milton who put the words in the mouth of Lucifer, “Better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven” or something like that.
Rather than abstractions, maybe I can speak of my own experiences with “love” relationships - some mimicking what mine should be with God. Jesus clearly told us to think of God as our Father - in fact as our “Daddy” - an affectionate form. If I were to insult and utterly reject my Father, the ways he has taught me for my own good and all the good that he has given to me should there be no serious consequences? Minor transgressions, short-lived falling out, etc., can be forgiven but there needs to be a line somewhere. Why? Justice dictates this, especially in light of my (hypothetical) siblings who are loyal and work hard to do my Father’s will. Does the fact that there are negative consequences for my behavior take away my free will? Does it make me, de facto, a slave? I don’t think so.
If a slave in the old South “loves” his “Massah” who takes care of him and loves him as a brother or a son, it is not a bad thing. Sure, they should be equals in the legal sense and they could have been in nearly every sense if it weren’t for the accidents of their births. Sure maybe in some egalitarian fantasy world, we are all created equal in every way but that is fantasy and not to be taken as reality. More to the point, God is NOT our equal and never could be. And no amount of protesting or pouting will make him so. It only makes us smaller and juvenile. Considering Lucifer’s qualities and abilities, he certainly would have had more justification than we for demanding equality with God. God is merciful but he is just and he is nobody’s patsy.
Stepping back a bit, let me say that I have a background in physical science and can relate to thinking in those terms. Science is fabulous and has many answers but none to the really important questions of life. You are intelligent enough to ask those questions, unlike too many who don’t bother. I like to think of the solution to life’s important questions as a set of equations. Not one equation but a set of multiple, coupled equations. When we find “the solution” we laugh and think, “How easy it should have been. It was really so simple and it all makes sense to me now.” Until we do, it is a frustrating maze.
You have asked questions associated with one of these important equations. It doesn’t really have a simple solution independent of all the other equations but only in conjunction with them. But when they are all seen standing there and solved together with one leading to the other and the other, it is a beautiful thing and very satisfying. But you will never find the solution to any of them if you don’t read and listen to the wisdom of those who have come before us and to the Church and to Jesus both in your heart and in your mind.
God bless you.
A
Alchemist
Guest
In a sermon at a mass in Church a priest had said “God is just, not fair” or something like that. Which defines a duelism between justice and fairness. How fair is it that some must suffer greatly while others do not? How fair is it that some are prosperous while others are in poverty. How fair is it that some have faithful spouses while others have adulterous ones? How fair is it that we have origional sin from something that we ourselves have not done? How fair is it that some must give up their lives for God while others do not because they are ignorant and therefore off the hook?
A
Alchemist
Guest
While it may be wholly to His credit that he “adopted” us or “befriended” us, we can take a look at Aristotle’s arguments, does He love us for our utility, for our providing Him with pleasure, or for us ourselves. And if it is us ourselves, as Aristotle defined true friendship, why then does he require us to jump through hoops?
Plus we didn’t ask to be created, and the consequence of Hell for not loving God back (whom we were forcefully put into existence by) does seem really unfair
A
Alchemist
Guest
The way we relate to our “Daddy” and the way we relate to God are very different. Here you say “If I were to insult and utterly reject my Father, the ways he has taught me for my own good and all the good that he has given to me should there be no serious consequences?” But for God all it takes is one unrepented mortal sin to fall from His love.
When you say “Justice dictates this, especially in light of my (hypothetical) siblings who are loyal and work hard to do my Father’s will.” it then brings up the question, at least in my eyes, why the same consequence would await someone who masturbates vs. someone who commits adultery. If my spouse were to masturbate I would have no problem with it, if she were to cheat on me, I would have a big problem. But while both of these sins create differing amounts of pain, both will end in damnation in Hell.
The reason it doesn’t make sense to look at God as our “Daddy” is because it isn’t enough to just “try to be good, love God, and love others” there are all these hoops that we must jump through to satisfy that requirement.
A
Alchemist
Guest
It seems like what you’re saying here is that God is justified in making us His slaves because He is so superior to us. But I feel that it doesn’t make it any less selfish an action.
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tdgesq
Guest
But that’s what love is all about, giving yourself freely to another person. Think about all the things you give up to show your love for other people in your own life. And you want them to give up things for you to show their love for you as well. Selfishness has nothing to do with it, because you are not making them do it. Why do you see it as bad that God wants the same thing - love - the same thing that you want of other people everyday?
But your spouse, parents, friends, etc. lay down rules all the time. Why do you follow those rules? Maybe you feel forced to sometimes. But much of the time you want to please that person. You want to do what they will because you love them. Can you imagine ever loving anybody who always did exactly the opposite of what you wanted them to? Jesus asks no more than you. You can do another’s will and still love them at the same time. In fact, I find it difficult to see how you could never do another’s will and still be said to love them.
You have an interesting notion of hell, but not one that IMO reflects church teaching. For purposes of this discussion, let’s assume that the only thing we know for certain about hell is that it is eternal separation from God. That’s it. If you refuse to love God, then you have separated yourself from the love of God. Just like if you continue to refuse to love another person on this earth, you have separated yourself from love of that person. You have done it. That other person that you refuse to love might even love you back. God always loves us even if we don’t love him back.
You see the prospect of hell as some kind of threat to get us to love God. That obviously can’t be the case. You can’t threaten someone else to love you. Look at it instead as a description of what is really happening when we choose not to love God. We are choosing to separate ourselves from him. A person who chooses this way, chooses hell.
A
Alchemist
Guest
God bless you as well
S
StCsDavid
Guest
It is our current day, secular, egocentric values that equate serving God to being a slave. I try to serve God because I love Him, and want to. He’s given me free will to make that choice. I have faith that He created me for the simple reason that He loves me. Plus if God was going to create a species of slaves, He certainly could have done better than creating man who is prone to follow his own whimsies. 
L
Lillith
Guest
Suffering is not a totally bad thing.
Passage Romans 5:3:
3Not only so, but we[a] also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;
Here we learn that it is a great teacher. I know you have suffered too Alchemist, and when you think about that period of your life, unless you are as thick headed as a brick…you did learn from the experience. I know I certainly did.
Passage 1 Peter 2:19:
19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.
God is not asking us to do anything that he did not! Jesus’ suffered everything that man could possibly ever…poverty, homelessness, and I am sure hunger and everything that goes with being without a home…Torture, heartbreak…name it He suffered it. That is how I know that He understand our human condition.
As far as justice…injustice. I think you are questioning how a Loving Father could send people to Hell. Try looking at it a little differently. God doesn’t send people to Hell…people go by their own accord. It is sin that is unrepented which causes damage not unlike wounds. So…we are wounded, and God can heal, but if we are too wounded, beyond repair by our uncaring, unloving, not repenting of this state, God’s healing, light that is true Love, would cause major Pain. Think of it like salt to the wounds…And to escape this pain we would throw ourselves away from God gladly.
A little pain, we can take. That’s purgatory (God healing our wounds which are not deadly) see this scripture here…
Passage 1 Corinthians 3:15:
15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
A
Alchemist
Guest
A number of people that talk about God’s love make the distinction between the love from God and the love from others, saying that the love from others is often conditional, while the love from God is unconditional. But if it were truly unconditional, why promise salvation on the basis of condtions when the salvation is supposed to come from God’s love sacrificing Jesus? Also these “rules” set up by friends and spouses are formed by agreement, generally they are set up to have some kind of fairness between them. The “rules” set up by parents are sometimes unfair, and drive their children away into a world where they become self sufficient and supportive. But in God’s world, especially regarding the afterlife, there is no life without God, and it is an impossibility to escape the “gnashing of teeth” that Jesus talks about unless you submit to His authority.
I always assumed that Church teaching reflected Bible teachings, which would always portray Hell as a terrible endless death/suffering
If this were the case, then the notion of Hell wouldn’t be as an afterlife but would also be descriptive of what is going on here in this present life as well. Therefore all nonbelivers are currently in Hell, as opposed to “going to Hell” when they die.
A
Alchemist
Guest
I did learn, and I was pulled away from my faith. As the suffering continued, I wanted to die, I prayed a lot. I asked God to change my situation, or change me, change my desires, give me this “perseverance” but eventually my perseverance gave out and I gave into sin.
But this is a digression from the topic at hand, whether or not God created man to be his slaves.
What about doubt? What about questioning the reason to have faith in the first place. Plus it still doesn’t address the issue at hand.
Read my above posts regarding this thing.
D
Damascus
Guest
Woah. Alchemist, for what its worth, I hardly think you are or have likely ever been thick as a brick.
You dont need to explain to anyone what led you to this, but I am glad you mentioned some very personal things here that I for one hope everyone can see this is not easy to do.
I just popped in to say hi to you today. Nothing more really.
Alchemist, if you dont mind me asking (dont answer if its too personal)
Are you more ambivilent about God or do you feel a degree of anger when you think of God?
I dont see anger here but maybe more alienation or a detatchment?
Have a great day today.
You dont need to explain to anyone what led you to this, but I am glad you mentioned some very personal things here that I for one hope everyone can see this is not easy to do.
I just popped in to say hi to you today. Nothing more really.
Alchemist, if you dont mind me asking (dont answer if its too personal)
Are you more ambivilent about God or do you feel a degree of anger when you think of God?
I dont see anger here but maybe more alienation or a detatchment?
Have a great day today.
I
I_Leatherman
Guest
He does not ask anything from you that He has not already underwent voluntarily himself.
So is it fair to ask you to follow?
Yes, because He went first for your sake.
Is it just?
Yes, more than just, because He is and was perfect but accepted death for our sake nevertheless - we are less perfect than Him.
Is it good?
Yes, because He is Good, He volunteered to suffer, and so gave suffering meaning and value for us.
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Lillith
Guest
Pulled away…I understand, but your journey isn’t over yet
God Bless you Alchemist…I hope you know I did not call *YOU *thick as a brickI do not believe this was digression. Just the normal flow of conversation. I threw suffering in there because you questioned (it appeared to me anyway) why folks are asked to Love God and some are made to suffer.
I really thought it did address it beautifully. God created us to Love. I do not know why…maybe he was bored and lonely…I do know that he is a Father to us and the entire universe…not a slave owner
I did read your posts. That is exactly why I felt lead to explain my understanding…God does not send us to Hell…we go there willingly
N
nonagon
Guest
This concept of a loving God didn’t really hit home for me until I started listening to Christopher West’s “Naked Without Shame” CD’s. As the CCC states, God is already perfect in Himself. God does not need anything or anyone else. If he created us for selfish reasons, then it means he needed something from us.
Then why did God create us? As Christopher West put it, God is love (The Father loves the Son and their love is the Holy Spirit) and God’s love wants to give itself away. He wants to share that unselfish love (called Agape) with us so He created us to share in His love. In order for us to share in this love, we have to love Him back since He gave all of Himself (Jesus on the cross) to us. If we don’t want to love Him back, then we have chosen not to share in His love (heaven). God through Jesus’s suffering on the cross said that you think I’m a slaver driver? I’m allowing you to whip me and kill me to show you that I don’t want to be a slave driver.
In the beginning, God created Adam and Eve to share in His love. In order to love it must be a free will choice. God gave them a choice… to love Him by trusting in His way or their own way. They chose the later (the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil). His way leads to life from God Himself, their way leads to being cut off from life. All other sins relates back to this first sin in that we say… “God, I know you’re hiding happiness from me by telling me not to sin so I’m just going to do what I think will bring me happiness.” Sin does not bring us the happiness we’re longing for in our hearts.
This question seems like God doesn’t want you to be happy. Here’s the way I like to look at it. Humanity is deeply wounded by sin like a person wounded with an arrow through his stomach. God comes along and saids I can save your life, but I’m going to need to pull that arrow out of you. It’s going to hurt like hell, but it’s the only way I can save your life. And in saying I don’t want to suffer, we are like saying we don’t want the arrow removed. We don’t trust in God. God only wants to bring us the true happiness that we’re looking for in our hearts and all the rules are meant to lead us that way. You may disagree with the fact that all of God’s laws are meant to bring us true happiness, but then you’ve fallen for the same lies that Satan told Eve… that you can find happiness by doing things your own way.
You seemed bitter about God letting you suffer. I suggest you read Peter Kreeft’s writings on Love and another on Suffering because you may have some misconception about what true love is. True Love requires suffering… you can’t seperate the 2. I’ll keep you in my prayers Alchemist.
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