Did God create man to love him and be his slaves?

[Alchemist]

I did read your posts. That is exactly why I felt lead to explain my understanding…God does not send us to Hell…we go there willingly

I’ll address this first.
If this is actually the case, why are the options not Heaven vs. Non existance. Instead there has to be some notion of Hell, where you still exist, and still suffer…for eternity, with no way out.

 

[Sixtus]

The answer is in the first line of the first posting: ‘God created man’. That was out of love so that man could enjoy the wonders of creation.

The Lord tells us that ‘the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath’. That defines man’s relationship and purpose. He is has not been created as some sort of slave, if he were, he would not have had freewill to be able to reject God.

It is obvious from reading the Sacred Scriptures that of all creation of intelligent beings, humanity is the favourite of God.

God in fact does not send anyone to hell or sentence anyone to go there. It is a place where the occupants are there through their OWN choice. God permits us to chose. But you may rest assured no one is hurt more than God when they go there. That is why He sent His only Son, that they may not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Lillith]

I’ll address this first.
If this is actually the case, why are the options not Heaven vs. Non existance. Instead there has to be some notion of Hell, where you still exist, and still suffer…for eternity, with no way out.

I don’t know if I can answer you to your satisfaction…Alchemist…but I will certainly try. What you are asking is a hard thing to know. I myself cringe at the thought of Hell…my entire family on both sides for at least two generations are atheist…save for a couple of deathbed confessions of faith…which…by the way…are legitimate conversions! A truely repentent person can make a complete act of contrition…and be saved at the last hour…the thief on the cross for just one example.

I think up until the very last minute God is calling you home…and yes…there are people who choose not to go. I can’t imagine why. The state that we die in is the way that we stay. I believe that people do stay away from God…due to the pain that the light from God’s love which causes suffering to the mortal wounds that they inflicted upon themselves…

Mystery upon Mysteries!!!

 

[Damascus]

For what it is worth Alchemist,

there is only one sin mentioned in the Bible as unforgiveable.

The rest can be forgiven (I know-- and dont want to get into all the specifics now about how, ect. firm purpose of … you know all that jazz)

I just thought it was interesting to mention.

It is a big topic though - its about the Holy Spirit, and its a big topic really since it boils down to rejecting God. Just returned a book Holy Father wrote that touches on it in a very interesting way.

But, The thing we are ALL slaves to is sin. We are not bad however. We all suffer from this in varing degrees. Being Catholic does not mean being sinless.

So now you will ask, God is the one who makes these rules and defines what sin is and is not. So, we are going in circles again right?

I call God Father. A good Father has to be a tough guy sometimes. Its just a part of the job. In fact, some parents will tell you they feel like slaves to their kids. Not vice versa.

Anyway, dont get hung up on too many of the particulars at once.

some things come to us in everyday moments, in the most mundane thing.

Sometimes it comes in bits and pieces, (the old testament to the new testament is this way -a slow progression of bits and pieces that reveal more and more- God knows we need time, lots of time to digest such things)

Particulars are stumbling blocks. Gods providence is not limited to particulars.

 

[tdgesq]

A number of people that talk about God’s love make the distinction between the love from God and the love from others, saying that the love from others is often conditional, while the love from God is unconditional. But if it were truly unconditional, why promise salvation on the basis of condtions when the salvation is supposed to come from God’s love sacrificing Jesus?

There are a lot of things going on here. At the risk of leading us from the topic at hand, I will answer briefly. God’s love for us is unconditional. He loves us in spite of our sins. The question is: will we love God back? It doesn’t look like we are doing a very good job loving him back if we defy his will, just like it would be hard for you to accept that someone loves you who acts completely contrary to your will. It almost looks like you are saying that God is bad because he does not make us slaves that are forced to love him back. Jesus’ sacrifice was God’s message to us about how much he loves us. You can accept that message or reject it. It’s up to you.

Also these “rules” set up by friends and spouses are formed by agreement, generally they are set up to have some kind of fairness between them.

Really? Love is an agreement that you will do something for another person as long as they do something back for you? Try telling your spouse that. Better yet, try telling your young children that. You don’t love them because they’ve agreed to do something for you. You freely put yourself at their disposal despite what they give back. Maybe not all of the time, but much of the time.

The “rules” set up by parents are sometimes unfair, and drive their children away into a world where they become self sufficient and supportive.

And sometimes children oppose their parents’ will wrongly. So what? Parents who unfairly impose burdens on their children are not loving them in that instance. Apparently you are saying that if God really loved us He would say “do whatever you want, even if it is opposed to my will.” You cannot seriously contend that unless you applied this principle to your children, you would not be “loving” them.

But in God’s world, especially regarding the afterlife, there is no life without God, and it is an impossibility to escape the “gnashing of teeth” that Jesus talks about unless you submit to His authority. I always assumed that Church teaching reflected Bible teachings, which would always portray Hell as a terrible endless death/suffering.

I could not find the word “suffering” when I briefly reviewed the CCC on this issue. What you will find is that the primary consequence of failing to love God is eternal separation from God. However, the Church would be fully justified in describing this is as suffering. Imagine finding out at the end of days that you could have had eternal closeness to God. I would call that suffering. In all fairness though, the CCC does refer to the “fire” of hell. How exactly that is to be interpreted is an open question in my mind. Apocalyptic statments always have to be interpreted in light of the writer’s present situation. There are reasons to believe that the “fire” of hell is a mode of expression rather than the real content of a statement about hell.

If this were the case, then the notion of Hell wouldn’t be as an afterlife but would also be descriptive of what is going on here in this present life as well. Therefore all nonbelivers are currently in Hell, as opposed to “going to Hell” when they die.

There are a number of reasons why this analysis is incorrect. First, we cannot know if another person in this present life has made such a radical choice as to completely reject God such that he is already “living in hell on earth.” Second, eternity is not an endless continuation of time. Eternity is existence without time. Therefore, the afterlife will not be at all like this life. It is true that there are a great many things that are not known about the states that exist after death. That doesn’t mean we can’t know anything about them.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Alchemist

If this is actually the case, why are the options not Heaven vs. Non existance. Instead there has to be some notion of Hell, where you still exist, and still suffer…for eternity, with no way out.

Why would non-existence be a better choice than hell?

Most people would much rather be living in the hell of their own lives rather than not living at all.

Many people choose (as their right) a hell for their lives. Why should they be deprived of choosing (as their right) a hell for all eternity … if that’s what they really want … eternal separation from God?

 

[Alchemist]

Alchemist

If this is actually the case, why are the options not Heaven vs. Non existance. Instead there has to be some notion of Hell, where you still exist, and still suffer…for eternity, with no way out.

Why would non-existence be a better choice than hell?

Most people would much rather be living in the hell of their own lives rather than not living at all.

Many people choose (as their right) a hell for their lives. Why should they be deprived of choosing (as their right) a hell for all eternity … if that’s what they really want … eternal separation from God?

I personally believe that non-existence is extremely better than hell. Whether hell is extreme suffering just because those that love God would find it an incredible suffering to be separated from him, or hell is extreme suffering because it is actually the strong preying on the week or endless torture, or fire and brimstone, or whatever. If you do not exist then you do not suffer, regardless of what kind of suffering it is. In fact, this is very similar to what people who follow Buddhism seek.

Plus, what about the fact that we don’t choose to be created? Where is our will in that? There are plenty of people who wish not to exist at all. But existence is something forced upon us by God, we have absolutely no choice about this, we don’t even have the choice to get out of existence, to cease to exist. Instead we’re forced into choosing between becoming God’s servant or suffering the consequences.

Also saying that whatever we suffer through, God suffered through it as well, because Jesus went through every suffering man could possibly go through. Did Jesus suffer through OCD? Did Jesus suffer through schizophrenia?

As for the rest of Jesus’ sufferings, it’s commonly pointed out that God did this for us. Ok so Jesus suffered for us, at any time he supposedly could have called down legions of angels and ended his suffering, or turned stone into bread to end his hunger. But what choice do we as humans have in this matter? We can’t turn stone into bread and we can’t call down legions of angels to defeat our enemies. I assume that if Jesus had done either of these then He still wouldn’t have had to worry about hell or eternal separation from God (being one with God anyway), it was completely optional with no coercion involved at all. But for everyone else, it’s still God’s will or hell, not 100% optional, not 100% coercion free.

 

[water]

frankly, I would perfer to be called God’s servant (or slave) if my own slavery, through Jesus, gets me into Heaven.

If my suffering helps me get closer to God, then I prefer to have 100 folds of my suffering if I get even closer to God.

If you believe that non-existence is better than Hell, then why it is so hard to believe that being His servant and to be in Heaven than being non-existence.

Open your heart and ask Him to see His Goodness and to see the point of you being creatd by Him.

If you keep on trying to reason God with a small brain of Human being, you will never understand - Praying is the key!

 

[Damascus]

I personally believe that non-existence is extremely better than hell. Whether hell is extreme suffering just because those that love God would find it an incredible suffering to be separated from him, or hell is extreme suffering because it is actually the strong preying on the week or endless torture, or fire and brimstone, or whatever. If you do not exist then you do not suffer, regardless of what kind of suffering it is. In fact, this is very similar to what people who follow Buddhism seek.

Plus, what about the fact that we don’t choose to be created? Where is our will in that? There are plenty of people who wish not to exist at all. But existence is something forced upon us by God, we have absolutely no choice about this, we don’t even have the choice to get out of existence, to cease to exist. Instead we’re forced into choosing between becoming God’s servant or suffering the consequences

Also saying that whatever we suffer through, God suffered through it as well, because Jesus went through every suffering man could possibly go through. Did Jesus suffer through OCD? Did Jesus suffer through schizophrenia?

As for the rest of Jesus’ sufferings, it’s commonly pointed out that God did this for us. Ok so Jesus suffered for us, at any time he supposedly could have called down legions of angels and ended his suffering, or turned stone into bread to end his hunger. But what choice do we as humans have in this matter? We can’t turn stone into bread and we can’t call down legions of angels to defeat our enemies. I assume that if Jesus had done either of these then He still wouldn’t have had to worry about hell or eternal separation from God (being one with God anyway), it was completely optional with no coercion involved at all. But for everyone else, it’s still God’s will or hell, not 100% optional, not 100% coercion free.

Did Jesus suffer through OCD? Did Jesus suffer through schizophrenia?

No, he did not suffer from those specific ailments. But his suffering started long before the Cross.

Persons suffering from those medical ailments are not sinning. They have not commited a sin since sin to be mortal requires 3 things and in cases like this it cannot be sin.

I think that its easy to focus on the “hell” aspect.

I would reccomend if I could be bold- to think of how you are right now - knowing it or not- by asking and considering these things - you remind me of John in the Bible who was very upset with the suffering in the world.

This is a good thing, if you balance that with so many other things----

You are not as far away as you think, really.

 

[Alchemist]

frankly, I would perfer to be called God’s servant (or slave) if my own slavery, through Jesus, gets me into Heaven.

If my suffering helps me get closer to God, then I prefer to have 100 folds of my suffering if I get even closer to God.

If you believe that non-existence is better than Hell, then why it is so hard to believe that being His servant and to be in Heaven than being non-existence.

Open your heart and ask Him to see His Goodness and to see the point of you being creatd by Him.

If you keep on trying to reason God with a small brain of Human being, you will never understand - Praying is the key!

Let’s face it, Hell sucks, to be there for eternity is the worst.

Going to Heaven to be with God involves going through Hell in this life.

Non-existence involves not going through Hell now or ever.

I think I’ve been in this conversation long enough to know that my mind won’t be changed on this, I’m unsubscribing to this thread, if anyone wishes to refute my last post (the one prior to this) in a way they think will change my mind then pm me.

 

[water]

I don’t consider this life is Hell. I wake up every morning thanking God for me living another day when I can do things to please Him, but if tomorrow is the day He calls me, then I am so ready to go.

To me He is the only God, the most Loving God.

You have the whole life ahead of you to think about it. Talking about God and try to understand His mind, will never take this short of the time…truly, you will never understand Him Fully.

Since you insist to close your mind, then why you are welcoming people to pm you. You must be in some sort of confusion - you are not really convincing me that you are determined - it is a good sign though.

 

[Alchemist]

Did Jesus suffer through OCD? Did Jesus suffer through schizophrenia?

No, he did not suffer from those specific ailments. But his suffering started long before the Cross.

Persons suffering from those medical ailments are not sinning. They have not commited a sin since sin to be mortal requires 3 things and in cases like this it cannot be sin.

I think that its easy to focus on the “hell” aspect.

I would reccomend if I could be bold- to think of how you are right now - knowing it or not- by asking and considering these things - you remind me of John in the Bible who was very upset with the suffering in the world.

This is a good thing, if you balance that with so many other things----

You are not as far away as you think, really.

Damascus, you seem like a very very benevolent person. Always trying to be understanding. I really appreciate that.

But personally living with OCD, and becoming friends with another person with OCD it’s clear that I’m not the only one living this hellish nightmare of a life. But as my friend said, Vietnam vets have nothing on us. I would personally choose serving in Vietnam over having OCD. In nam stuff is blowing up, people are getting torn apart and at any minute a bullet could go through your head killing you right there. But when that bullet goes through your skull, that’s it, it’s over, that’s the end of your suffering. With OCD it’s equivalent to shrapnel exploding and digging into your body. Some of you may have felt the sheer agony of depression and anxiety, where you wonder day after day why you haven’t died from it already. With OCD it can come year after year, for months at a time. My friend had even told me once “the fact that you’re alive is impressive, I’m very proud of you, this is Golgotha my brother”

I just don’t see why it’s necessary with all the suffering that’s already going on, to add in more suffering that comes about from follow all these rules and jumping through all these hoops to prove your love for God.

 

[tdgesq]

Okay. Let me ask you this. Would you no longer see God as creating man to be his slaves if he gave us the following three choices?: 1) love him and experience eternal salvation; 2) don’t love him and experience eternal separation; or 3) have the option to snuff out your eternal soul, regardless of whether you love God or not. How in the world God becomes more loving and less of a slaver by giving us the option of destroying our eternal souls, even on a whim, is totally beyond me.

The bottom line is that since you have freedom of choice to accept or reject God, you are not his slave. You don’t have to love God, you can choose eternal separation instead. If you don’t like that option, then choose eternal life (please make this choice). And if God doesn’t give you the choice to destroy your immortal soul, perhaps it’s because he loves you too much.

 

[Alchemist]

I don’t consider this life is Hell. I wake up every morning thanking God for me living another day when I can do things to please Him, but if tomorrow is the day He calls me, then I am so ready to go.

To me He is the only God, the most Loving God.

You have the whole life ahead of you to think about it. Talking about God and try to understand His mind, will never take this short of the time…truly, you will never understand Him Fully.

Since you insist to close your mind, then why you are welcoming people to pm you. You must be in some sort of confusion - you are not really convincing me that you are determined - it is a good sign though.

I’m just tired of reading these posts which do nothing for me but rehash the whole “it’s people choosing to separate themselves from God” without giving detailed explainations as to how that is the case.

 

[Alchemist]

Okay. Let me ask you this. Would you no longer see God as creating man to be his slaves if he gave us the following three choices?: 1) love him and experience eternal salvation; 2) don’t love him and experience eternal separation; or 3) have the option to snuff out your eternal soul, regardless of whether you love God or not. How in the world God becomes more loving and less of a slaver by giving us the option of destroying our eternal souls, even on a whim, is totally beyond me.

The bottom line is that since you have freedom of choice to accept or reject God, you are not his slave. You don’t have to love God, you can choose eternal separation instead. If you don’t like that option, then choose eternal life (please make this choice). And if God doesn’t give you the choice to destroy your immortal soul, perhaps it’s because he loves you too much.

God would be less of a slave monger if He gave us that 3rd option because that would be offering us a way out of the dilemma.

So God would rather have us in the lake of fire because he loves us too much? If He did love us then why not suck it up and let us into heaven anyway.

I can’t see how being cast into the lake of fire is more merciful than not being cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Alchemist]

Also I believe that there do exist people who wish to no longer exist because they commit suicide.

 

[water]

my mind won’t be changed on this, I’m unsubscribing to this thread

you should not if you think you can be changed.

 

[Alchemist]

you should not if you think you can be changed.

Basically I was getting tired of people posting the same thing on people “choosing total separation from God” simply rehashing the same argument without adding additional logical backing isn’t gonna do it for me.

 

[tdgesq]

I apologize for not seeing your earlier post about OCD. The problem of pain is a difficult one. For me as well, because I’ve been through my fair share, and I’m pretty sure it isn’t over yet. There is hope though, even on the topic we are discussing. Who says that God can’t suck it up and let us into heaven anyway? It is by no means a logical impossibilty that this is the way it will happen. A God who has the capability of doing this for us is surely worth loving. God bless.

 

[Alchemist]

There are a lot of things going on here. At the risk of leading us from the topic at hand, I will answer briefly. God’s love for us is unconditional. He loves us in spite of our sins. The question is: will we love God back? It doesn’t look like we are doing a very good job loving him back if we defy his will, just like it would be hard for you to accept that someone loves you who acts completely contrary to your will. It almost looks like you are saying that God is bad because he does not make us slaves that are forced to love him back. Jesus’ sacrifice was God’s message to us about how much he loves us. You can accept that message or reject it. It’s up to you.

Apparently we can only accept this by following the rules, if we break the rules and don’t repent then we automatically reject this. This is why it seems conditional to me

Really? Love is an agreement that you will do something for another person as long as they do something back for you? Try telling your spouse that. Better yet, try telling your young children that. You don’t love them because they’ve agreed to do something for you. You freely put yourself at their disposal despite what they give back. Maybe not all of the time, but much of the time.

I wasn’t the one who said that our lovers put down rules for us to follow, I said that these “rules” are really agreements which make up the relationship. The love itself may take place whether or not the agreement is kept, but the people in the agreement will not necessarily stay in the relationship.

And sometimes children oppose their parents’ will wrongly. So what? Parents who unfairly impose burdens on their children are not loving them in that instance. Apparently you are saying that if God really loved us He would say “do whatever you want, even if it is opposed to my will.” You cannot seriously contend that unless you applied this principle to your children, you would not be “loving” them.

Some argue that the challenges and requirements that God imposes on us are unfair.

I could not find the word “suffering” when I briefly reviewed the CCC on this issue. What you will find is that the primary consequence of failing to love God is eternal separation from God. However, the Church would be fully justified in describing this is as suffering. Imagine finding out at the end of days that you could have had eternal closeness to God. I would call that suffering. In all fairness though, the CCC does refer to the “fire” of hell. How exactly that is to be interpreted is an open question in my mind. Apocalyptic statments always have to be interpreted in light of the writer’s present situation. There are reasons to believe that the “fire” of hell is a mode of expression rather than the real content of a statement about hell.

A friend of mine said that although hell may not necessarily be an eternal torture, it may end up being so since you are separated from God and God will not protect you from those stronger than you, ie Satan, who would end up bullying you around. (not making it any much more pleasant than the other view of hell)

There are a number of reasons why this analysis is incorrect. First, we cannot know if another person in this present life has made such a radical choice as to completely reject God such that he is already “living in hell on earth.” Second, eternity is not an endless continuation of time. Eternity is existence without time. Therefore, the afterlife will not be at all like this life. It is true that there are a great many things that are not known about the states that exist after death. That doesn’t mean we can’t know anything about them.

I don’t know what to say to that at this time.