Did God create man to love him and be his slaves?

[Gottle_of_Geer]

In a sermon at a mass in Church a priest had said “God is just, not fair” or something like that. Which defines a duelism between justice and fairness. How fair is it that some must suffer greatly while others do not?

Depends what we make of it Besides, we are never alone - for we know that Christ our God has suffered far more than all of us.​

How fair is it that some are prosperous while others are in poverty. How fair is it that some have faithful spouses while others have adulterous ones?

God suffered adultery when Israel went off worshipping false gods - we are adulterers when we sin​

How fair is it that we have origional sin from something that we ourselves have not done?

It is not our own sin, but the result of another’s - a sort of radiation.​

How fair is it that some must give up their lives for God

Why should they not do so ?​

while others do not because they are ignorant and therefore off the hook?

God is not fair in the slightest - a fair God would not​

• come down to our level
• become man for our salvation
• take the entirety of our guilt & sin upon Himself
• become accursed for our sake
• die an obscene, agonising, slow & clownish death for us
• pour out His own Blood for us
• suffer betrayal by a friend
• be denied and disowned by another

• He would do none of these things: He would leave us in the filth & pollution of our sins in this life, & damn us in the next. But instead, He moves Heaven and earth to save us from the consequences of our own egotism, pride, & disobedience.

No, God is grossly unfair, and has no sense of self-respect whatever. A self-respecting God would not mix with lepers, Gentiles, tax-collectors, and crucified criminals. He does - because that is the sort of God He is. So we can forget about what we deserve, because God does not “do” garbage like that - He only does grace.

God is Love, not fairness - and love comes from the lover, it is essentially unfair. Why is one person chosen rather than another to be a husband or a wife ? The chooser could have chosen differently. If we don’t object to this on earth, why do we blame God for choosing as He does ? He does not need our permission, for He is our Sovereign Lord and Creator. Or isn’t it enough that God is infinite in every perfection, in Goodness, Love, Wisdom, Power, Glory, Majesty & every other one conceivable ?

As to the questions you raise - we live in a world that cannot live rightly except in obedience to its Creator, but is at odds with Him and therefore bears the consequences of trying to live the fantasy-life of happiness without God.

Fairness is meaningless anyway, unless it is measured by the Holy Will of God. And His Will is supremely revealed in Jesus Christ ##

 

[Damascus]

Damascus, you seem like a very very benevolent person. Always trying to be understanding. I really appreciate that.

But personally living with OCD, and becoming friends with another person with OCD it’s clear that I’m not the only one living this hellish nightmare of a life. But as my friend said, Vietnam vets have nothing on us. I would personally choose serving in Vietnam over having OCD. In nam stuff is blowing up, people are getting torn apart and at any minute a bullet could go through your head killing you right there. But when that bullet goes through your skull, that’s it, it’s over, that’s the end of your suffering. With OCD it’s equivalent to shrapnel exploding and digging into your body. Some of you may have felt the sheer agony of depression and anxiety, where you wonder day after day why you haven’t died from it already. With OCD it can come year after year, for months at a time. My friend had even told me once “the fact that you’re alive is impressive, I’m very proud of you, this is Golgotha my brother”

I just don’t see why it’s necessary with all the suffering that’s already going on, to add in more suffering that comes about from follow all these rules and jumping through all these hoops to prove your love for God.

But you did prove your love for God. you love your neighbor. You did it.
Loving God is just that.

You showed kindness to me, and I am sure you do to many people all the time.
Each time you do that, You are loving God without any hoops to jump.

You are doing it.

 

[runandsew]

This “slave monger” view is completely distorted.

"Then he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which he was girded…When he had washed their feet, and taken his garments, and resumed his place, he said to them, ‘Do you know what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet. you also ought to wash one another’s feet.’ "
John 13: 5, 12-14

Old catechism lessons teach “God created us to know Him, to love Him and to serve Him so we can be happy with Him in heaven.” While we try to know, love and serve God, He knows, loves and serves us too. It’s mutual, only He’s far better at knowing, loving and serving than we are.

Father Larry Richards says in his talk “The Truth”
God Created us to know him, to love him and to serve him in this world, so that we might live with him forever in the next world.

We know God by prayer.
We love God by loving others.
We serve God, by making him or Lord in every aspect of our lives
He is in charge of our time
He is in charge of our family
He is in charge of our money
He is in charge of or sex lifes

If we want Jesus to be our Savior, he has to be our Lord first. After all he is our Lord and Savior.

So in a way we are his slaves, St. Paul makes that clear. But we are slaves in that we let him rule our lifes.

Galatians 2:19-20
I have been crucified with Christ; yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me

But we are not slaves in the way Islam teaches about the relationship between God and Man, where he is not our father, we are but just like a “dog” to him. There is no fatherhood/sonship there.

 

[JGuar17944]

A number of people that talk about God’s love make the distinction between the love from God and the love from others, saying that the love from others is often conditional, while the love from God is unconditional. But if it were truly unconditional, why promise salvation on the basis of condtions when the salvation is supposed to come from God’s love sacrificing Jesus? Also these “rules” set up by friends and spouses are formed by agreement, generally they are set up to have some kind of fairness between them. The “rules” set up by parents are sometimes unfair, and drive their children away into a world where they become self sufficient and supportive. But in God’s world, especially regarding the afterlife, there is no life without God, and it is an impossibility to escape the “gnashing of teeth” that Jesus talks about unless you submit to His authority.

I always assumed that Church teaching reflected Bible teachings, which would always portray Hell as a terrible endless death/suffering

If this were the case, then the notion of Hell wouldn’t be as an afterlife but would also be descriptive of what is going on here in this present life as well. Therefore all nonbelivers are currently in Hell, as opposed to “going to Hell” when they die.

Wrong. We still have some “connection” to God, if you will, through his creation. Although we do not naturally have contact the Life of God, Zoe(Greek for “life in principle,” in the platonic sense), we do have biological life, which allows us to exist in the world.

If we did not have contact with the world or with God, what would keep us from misery?

 

[JGuar17944]

What about giving up your life for God? Surrendering to Jesus. This is what God is asking of us. The whole idea of hell makes God’s love seem conditional. The fact that there are all these rules to follow, where the consequence of unrepented sin is Hell. It’s pretty much impossible to both enjoy your life and love God, but it’s possible to enjoy your life and love others. The way it’s set up, you can’t be accepting God’s love unless you suffer.

Hell is considered eternal death. So therefore, love God or die.
How does the analogy of pointing a gun to someone’s head while saying “love me” not resemble this at all?

The basic thing you’re getting wrong here is that God does not send us to hell - that would only be true if our basic position in relation to God was “alright.” But God is only offering us a way out of our present situation, which is separation from him via original sin.

Better than your gunpoint analogy would be this: Imagine mankind as a person in danger of drowning in a river. God would be reaching his hand out to the person, saying “trust me.” (props to C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity)

Didn’t Buddha also say that it’s an illusion that pleasure will lead to happiness? If we think that we can only enjoy our life OR love God, than it’s because our idea of happiness is too small.

 

[JGuar17944]

Wrong. We still have some “connection” to God, if you will, through his creation. Although we do not naturally have contact the Life of God, Zoe(Greek for “life in principle,” in the platonic sense), we do have biological life, which allows us to exist in the world.

If we did not have contact with the world or with God, what would keep us from misery?

Should have phrased this, “If we did not have contact with God himself, or his good creations, what would keep us from misery?”

In otherwords, the goodness of those creations of God with which we can interact keeps this life from being hell.

 

[JGuar17944]

I should also point this out, even though it was implicit in my previous posts: “Separating oneself from God” is a move that can only be made by one incorporated into the Body of Christ in the first place. Unbelievers who have never believed have not separated themselves - it’s more like they remain separate.

 

[CNormal]

Alchemist, it is part of being human (and growing up) for us to question why what is is the way it is. In reading your questions and replies, unfortunately, I think you have crossed the line to being simply, a petulant child (of God). This is not meant as an insult but an observation to help you.

May God give you (more) wisdom.

 

[Alchemist]

The basic thing you’re getting wrong here is that God does not send us to hell - that would only be true if our basic position in relation to God was “alright.” But God is only offering us a way out of our present situation, which is separation from him via original sin.

Better than your gunpoint analogy would be this: Imagine mankind as a person in danger of drowning in a river. God would be reaching his hand out to the person, saying “trust me.” (props to C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity)

Didn’t Buddha also say that it’s an illusion that pleasure will lead to happiness? If we think that we can only enjoy our life OR love God, than it’s because our idea of happiness is too small.

But we were made to fall in the river in the first place. Either way you cut it we’re forced into this position.

You always say that “the risk of people going to hell is worth it because of people going to heaven” or something like that.

And there’s the idea of Origional sin. We’re born into this world and through no fault of our own we have origional sin on us. So regardless of anything we’re in this river through no fault of our own.

Plus the river analogy in the first place creates an image of God who is not all powerful, it plays off the limits of humans. But even with humanity’s limits a person who doesn’t trust someone could be saved, (humans have invented nets and stuff which could be used in this task)

 

[Alchemist]

I should also point this out, even though it was implicit in my previous posts: “Separating oneself from God” is a move that can only be made by one incorporated into the Body of Christ in the first place. Unbelievers who have never believed have not separated themselves - it’s more like they remain separate.

So when they die in that state of separation, they’re still separate, and that way for eternity?

 

[Alchemist]

The basic thing you’re getting wrong here is that God does not send us to hell - that would only be true if our basic position in relation to God was “alright.” But God is only offering us a way out of our present situation, which is separation from him via original sin.

Better than your gunpoint analogy would be this: Imagine mankind as a person in danger of drowning in a river. God would be reaching his hand out to the person, saying “trust me.” (props to C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity)

Didn’t Buddha also say that it’s an illusion that pleasure will lead to happiness? If we think that we can only enjoy our life OR love God, than it’s because our idea of happiness is too small.

Well I know I was feeling unhappy when I left my faith.

 

[Alchemist]

But you did prove your love for God. you love your neighbor. You did it.
Loving God is just that.

You showed kindness to me, and I am sure you do to many people all the time.
Each time you do that, You are loving God without any hoops to jump.

You are doing it.

But I am not, I am commiting mortal sins that I am not repenting for, which “kills the spirit” or connection with God or whatever it is called. So while I’m still loving God as you put it, it isn’t enough to be saved from eternal damnation.

 

[Damascus]

So when they die in that state of separation, they’re still separate, and that way for eternity?

Dear Alchemist-

I have seen some posts here that deviate or better said- are not totally accurate.

You were a practicing Catholic. Therefore some of the comments made here are IMHO not correct.

Even had you been a Christian of any flavor of the day, some of these comments are not correct here.

Alchemist- ask for citations. Do not take at face value what you are getting here. Keep in mind they do not know all the details of your particular situation.

I am really wondering if some posters here bothered to read ALL the earlier posts prior to posting.

Alchemist- I am glad you are still here. I was wondering why I was not getting any alerts to this post. Something must have not gone right since I missed all notification of the posts after my last one.

I wish I had time to respond now. I am NOT in agreement with some things that have been said here.

 

[Damascus]

But I am not, I am commiting mortal sins that I am not repenting for, which “kills the spirit” or connection with God or whatever it is called. So while I’m still loving God as you put it, it isn’t enough to be saved from eternal damnation.

You are speaking for God now. This is IMHO something we can not do.

Please take this a bit slower. You are rushing to conclusions here, and I am not criticizing you but telling you in all love that we are not able to do this.

I wish I could respond farther but I am pleading with you to take a step back and re-evaluate this for a minute.

 

[Damascus]

But I am not, I am commiting mortal sins that I am not repenting for, which “kills the spirit” or connection with God or whatever it is called. So while I’m still loving God as you put it, it isn’t enough to be saved from eternal damnation.

You are speaking for God now. This is IMHO something we can not do.

Please take this a bit slower. You are rushing to conclusions here, and I am not criticizing you but telling you in all love that we are not able to do this.

I wish I could respond farther but I am pleading with you to take a step back and re-evaluate this for a minute.

I will try my best to respond as soon as I can. Its late here and I have a small fry who needs some attention at the moment.

I will be back.

 

[Damascus]

Well I know I was feeling unhappy when I left my faith.

Thanks be to God!

This is HOPE if I ever heard it!!!

There is a reason you felt this way. Oh my, You are not far away my friend, not by a long shot.

You may be closer than you think.

 

[Alchemist]

You are speaking for God now. This is IMHO something we can not do.

Please take this a bit slower. You are rushing to conclusions here, and I am not criticizing you but telling you in all love that we are not able to do this.

I wish I could respond farther but I am pleading with you to take a step back and re-evaluate this for a minute.

I will try my best to respond as soon as I can. Its late here and I have a small fry who needs some attention at the moment.

I will be back.

Oh well those conclusions were gathered from the Catechism. Good luck with your children. It’s actually getting pretty late here as well.

 

[Damascus]

Oh well those conclusions were gathered from the Catechism. Good luck with your children. It’s actually getting pretty late here as well.

Lets chat tomorrow okay?

Sleep well my friend.

 

[Alchemist]

Lets chat tomorrow okay?

Sleep well my friend.

Good night to you too

 

[Damascus]

Hi Alchemist!

There was something you mentioned in an earlier posting that I wanted to talk about a little bit.

“I am commiting mortal sins that I am not repenting for”

#1) We know there are 3 conditions that must be met in order for the sin to be considered as mortal.

#2) if those 3 conditions are not there- and from reading ALL your posts here, I can not see how that is possible, unless I am missing something here,
It certainly appears that you have a weak argument for this statement.

#3) You would most likely be repenting for your sins if these 3 conditions were met.

Finally, a word of caution on using the CCC like a Sola Scriptura Christian uses the Bible, it is not wise to pick a thing here and there out of it and draw conclusions from that without some guidance.

I know that all the above sounds really chastizing but, trust me when I say that I as a new convert fell into many of these senarios myself so I am certainly not judging here, only comiserating with the frustration one can have going about this alone.

Take care! Hope to hear from you soon.