Did God exclude females from receiving an ontological change

[Rau]

How then can a women act in the person of Christ? Male and Female are made in the image of Christ.
At the last supper Jesus’ words were spoken to all, men and women.

Male and Female share much in common (eg. “made in the image of God”.) They do not share all things in common. All may hear and receive the words of Jesus (and they did) - but it was only a Man who said them (“This is my body…”, “Your sins are forgiven…”,…). It’s not unreasonable to propose that a man should act in the person of Christ. Whether it is plain and absolutely certain that it must be so - I can’t say, other than to accept what the Church has concluded.

 

[sudy]

I know I would not be worthy to be a priest… even if it was possible. I only know a handful of priests but they are the most Christ-like people I’ve ever met. It becomes most apparent, to me, in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

If you want to be a preacher/orator, great!. Go out into the world and preach the Good News. If you want to write homilies, great! Write a blog. If you want to spend your days in fasting and prayer, great! This is the best form of worship to God. If you want to live a holy life and be blessed, great! Live the holy life: pray, fast, love God and neighbour as we’re all called to live, and live out the beatitudes.

Sometimes it’s hard to see the wood for the trees. Woman submits to her husband when it comes to family authority, whereas men submit to no one but God alone. Priesthood can be a stumbling block for men, too… having to confess through another man, etc. People can be so focused on gender, or submitting to authority, and not enough on the beautiful gifts that God has given to us with the priesthood. We are given life… ‘unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you have no life in you’, we are given reconciliation with God… ‘if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven, if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’… ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven’.

Women cannot be ordained. It doesn’t matter whether you like it or not, it is what it is. The Church has definitively spoken. Jesus founded this Church. Jesus gave a shepherd for his flock. Jesus gave the power to forgive sins and to perform Mass. Jesus sends the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. There are other religious vocations, besides the priesthood.

Try to put your trust in God and accept that he knows what he’s doing. The authority was given to the apostles and to the Church, trust in that authority. Learn to accept.

 

[grannymh]

How then can a women act in the person of Christ? Male and Female are made in the image of Christ.
At the last supper Jesus’ words were spoken to all, men and women.
Women are to follow Christ as men are, yet they are not allow to act in the person of Christ because they are female.
It doesn’t make sense if you believe male and female are made in Christs image, there is no exclusion then.

It would be appropriate for you to state what the Catholic Church teaches about the “person of Christ.” Thank you.

 

[Sarcelle]

As it pertains to priesthood, the answer is “yes”, as spoken from the Chair itself.

But you don’t even need the Chair. For reasons I don’t know, God gave man the headship.

-He was called forth first, and woman was called forth from him as a “help-meet”.
-The Fall occurred when Adam ate, even though Eve ate first.
-Men were ordained the high-priests of their home in the age of the Patriarchs.
-In the age of the Levitical priesthood, men were exclusively chosen as the priests.
-When God incarnated, He chose the male form.
-All the Christ-chosen disciples/apostles were men.

I think there’s a theme here.

As a man, am I any “better” than a woman? I don’t think so. But for reasons I don’t know, headship was granted to me in a way not granted to my wife, God help me.

Correct. This is why newly elected Popes are not exactly overjoyed about their new position. They can sense the burden and responsibility of that position.

Headship was granted to you over your wife and children to lead them to heaven.

Those who abuse this position and mistreat their families will have to answer to God. That is a scary consequence.

Remember the parable of Jesus where the master returns and finds that the servant he left in charge of the other servants has abused his authority?

 

[grannymh]

As a man, am I any “better” than a woman? I don’t think so. But for reasons I don’t know, headship was granted to me in a way not granted to my wife, God help me.

Pardon me. Is there a Catholic Sacrament of Headship?

 

[grannymh]

I know I would not be worthy to be a priest… even if it was possible. I only know a handful of priests but they are the most Christ-like people I’ve ever met. It becomes most apparent, to me, in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

If you want to be a preacher/orator, great!. Go out into the world and preach the Good News. If you want to write homilies, great! Write a blog. If you want to spend your days in fasting and prayer, great! This is the best form of worship to God. If you want to live a holy life and be blessed, great! Live the holy life: pray, fast, love God and neighbour as we’re all called to live, and live out the beatitudes.

Sometimes it’s hard to see the wood for the trees. Woman submits to her husband when it comes to family authority, whereas men submit to no one but God alone. Priesthood can be a stumbling block for men, too… having to confess through another man, etc. People can be so focused on gender, or submitting to authority, and not enough on the beautiful gifts that God has given to us with the priesthood. We are given life… ‘unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you have no life in you’, we are given reconciliation with God… ‘if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven, if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’… ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven’.

Women cannot be ordained. It doesn’t matter whether you like it or not, it is what it is. The Church has definitively spoken. Jesus founded this Church. Jesus gave a shepherd for his flock. Jesus gave the power to forgive sins and to perform Mass. Jesus sends the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. There are other religious vocations, besides the priesthood.

Try to put your trust in God and accept that he knows what he’s doing. The authority was given to the apostles and to the Church, trust in that authority. Learn to accept.

 

[Sarcelle]

Pardon me. Is there a Catholic Sacrament of Headship?

There is the Catholic sacrament of marriage where the husband is considered the head of household and wields an authority over his wife.

 

[grannymh]

There is the Catholic sacrament of marriage where the husband is considered the head of household and wields an authority over his wife.

Wow!

Apparently, I made the right decision to find out what is happening on this thread even though it is difficult to keep my Catholic Faith… I need to remember that I can always go back to what I learned from the dead generation.

 

[Vonsalza]

I know it can be hard to swallow, especially in a modern age.

But mankind “fell” when Adam ate, not Eve - even though she ate first. Ergo “The Fall” is “Adamic” rather than “Evenic”.

From this, much of the ancient Jewish concept of a sin nature is that it is inherited from your father, rather than mother. Ergo the conception of Christ whose father is God Himself.

These concepts may surprise you (as I assume from the “wow”), but they are not novel nor obscure. They’re far older than the Catholic Church herself.

But this is a separate topic worthy of a different thread; even if it is somewhat related.

 

[grannymh]

I know it can be hard to swallow, especially in a modern age.

But mankind “fell” when Adam ate, not Eve - even though she ate first. Ergo “The Fall” is “Adamic” rather than “Evenic”.

From this, much of the ancient Jewish concept of a sin nature is that it is inherited from your father, rather than mother. Ergo the conception of Christ whose father is God Himself.

These concepts may surprise you (as I assume from the “wow”), but they are not novel nor obscure. They’re far older than the Catholic Church herself.

But this is a separate topic worthy of a different thread; even if it is somewhat related.

May I offer that one problem is that Catholic terminology needs to be precise. The Catholic position does not teach that mankind fell when Adam ate. What can be confusing is that if I am understanding the term “Adamic” correctly, then the implication that Adam did the deed is correct.

 

[Sarcelle]

Wow!

Apparently, I made the right decision to find out what is happening on this thread even though it is difficult to keep my Catholic Faith… I need to remember that I can always go back to what I learned from the dead generation.

Since I cannot hear your tone in your written words, I don’t know if you are being positive or negative with that wow word.

The Catholic Church has made it clear that even if a wife is to submit to her husband, she should not be considered the same status as that of a minor. She is an adult and should be treated as an adult.

Also, in no way did I say that a husband has permission to abuse his family because he has authority over them.

 

[simpleas]

It would be appropriate for you to state what the Catholic Church teaches about the “person of Christ.” Thank you.

Actually I don’t know what the church teaches about the person of Christ.

Obviously I know Jesus was male, that he is the Christ, the Christ is God, and God made humans in ‘his’ likeness, which is male and female.

I think what is really bugging me is where is the female in the teaching of God as creator.

Some say that the Holy Spirit could be female, but then the Holy Spirit teaches and guides so would be considered male, God is male, and so is the son of God, God the son.

 

[grannymh]

Actually I don’t know what the church teaches about the person of Christ.

The Person of Christ is the Divine Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity.
Obviously I know Jesus was male, that he is the Christ, the Christ is God, and God made humans in ‘his’ likeness, which is male and female.
I think what is really bugging me is where is the female in the teaching of God as creator.

Genesis 1: 27
“God created mankind in His image;
in the image of God He created them;
male and female* He created them.”

Some say that the Holy Spirit could be female, but then the Holy Spirit teaches and guides so would be considered male, God is male, and so is the son of God, God the son.

Life is easier when Catholic teachings are used. God is not male. “His” is the only pronoun we have. Male normally refers to human species and animal species. The Second Divine Person of the Most Holy Trinity assumed human nature. The Divine nature was not replaced by a human nature.

 

[simpleas]

Originally Posted by grannymh

Life is easier when Catholic teachings are used. God is not male. “His” is the only pronoun we have. Male normally refers to human species and animal species. The Second Divine Person of the Most Holy Trinity assumed human nature. The Divine nature was not replaced by a human nature.

This is why I don’t see that only male humans can act in persona Christi.

But that’s my opinion, and I’ve tired.

Thanks.

 

[Lea101]

Actually I don’t know what the church teaches about the person of Christ.

Obviously I know Jesus was male, that he is the Christ, the Christ is God, and God made humans in ‘his’ likeness, which is male and female.

I think what is really bugging me is where is the female in the teaching of God as creator.

Some say that the Holy Spirit could be female, but then the Holy Spirit teaches and guides so would be considered male, God is male, and so is the son of God, God the son.

Honestly, I’ve come to terms that underneath all of these flowery language, the Church/God doesn’t see us as equal to man. It’s pretty obvious that we are lower. that’s probably the answer you don’t want to receive, and not everyone will want to give it to you

 

[Gorgias]

Actually I don’t know what the church teaches about the person of Christ.

And that, it seems, is the sticking point…

I think what is really bugging me is where is the female in the teaching of God as creator.

Yes! Exactly! You’ve asked the perfect question, there!

God the Father is not male. God the Father is not female. God the Father is spirit.

Some say that the Holy Spirit could be female

Nope: for the same reason as God the Father is genderless, so is the Holy Spirit genderless! (You’re almost there…!)

This is why I don’t see that only male humans can act in persona Christi.

Because they’re acting “in persona Christi”. Not “in persona Patri” or “in persona Spiritu”, or even “in persona Logos”, but rather “in the person of Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church.”

Although the Godhead is genderless, Jesus is male. Those who act “in his person”… are male.

I think you’ve got it. I think you get it. I think… you just don’t like it. (But that’s just my guess.)

 

[simpleas]

And that, it seems, is the sticking point…

Yes! Exactly! You’ve asked the perfect question, there!

God the Father is not male. God the Father is not female. God the Father is spirit.

Nope: for the same reason as God the Father is genderless, so is the Holy Spirit genderless! (You’re almost there…!)

Because they’re acting “in persona Christi”. Not “in persona Patri” or “in persona Spiritu”, or even “in persona Logos”, but rather “in the person of Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church.”

Although the Godhead is genderless, Jesus is male. Those who act “in his person”… are male.

I think you’ve got it. I think you get it. I think… you just don’t like it. (But that’s just my guess.)

But don’t you think that this seems to suggest that God is male.

God the ‘father’ although could be non gendered, it’s easy to say Father.

Three ‘persons’ in one? Two are non gender, are spirit, one is human and Divine.

No female reference is made.

Only in Genesis where it’s describing how God the spirit makes the humans. Made in God’s image, male and female.

And I don’t have a problem with men being priests FYI.

 

[simpleas]

Honestly, I’ve come to terms that underneath all of these flowery language, the Church/God doesn’t see us as equal to man. It’s pretty obvious that we are lower. that’s probably the answer you don’t want to receive, and not everyone will want to give it to you

I don’t believe God sees women as lower than men

I know some men and even some women,see women as lower than men.

When looking at the hierarchy of the church, it’s strange not to see women a long side men.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I don’t believe God sees women as lower than men

I know some men and even some women,see women as lower than men.

When looking at the hierarchy of the church, it’s strange not to see women a long side men.

Why?

Not being ‘alongside men’ in the hierarchy doesn’t make women lower or second class. It makes them not part of the hierarchy. So dang what?

I am sure that Miriam, sister of Aaron and Moses, was just as capable as they were. She was probably at least as devout and ‘well spoken’ as Aaron was, and at least as loving and devout as Moses. I’m also sure that she didn’t kvetch at the well with the other Israelite women, “So yeah, everybody is all Moses Moses Moses but who’s the one here that is going around and making sure that the kids are all fed and the men are all fed, that we aren’t leaving a 40 year pile of litter in the desert, etc. I am, that’s who! God should have given ME the job of leading the people. I would have asked for directions so we weren’t wandering 40 years!”

For some reason, people nowadays seem to consider ‘roles’ as being the criterion of worth. What ever happened to people trying to be the best and holiest people that they could be?

How many saints do we have who really never accomplished anything in their lives (as opposed to the ‘successful’ people in the world’). St. Therese of the Child Jesus died at a young age, in a convent. She never had any ‘rank’. She took glory in being ‘little’.

And it goes for men, too. Why do people think being a priest is meant to be some great big status symbol and some ‘power’? Seriously? Priests give up homes, family, prestige, wealth, personal autonomy, AND in their stead, they take on the care of not just their own souls, but those of the ones they serve.

But no, you’re only important, as a woman (or a man) in how you look to others, not how you look to God. It’s the ‘outside’ that matters, apparently. It’s the title, it’s the ‘status’, it’s what you want, when you want, how you want. Oh sure, we’ll pretend that it’s all about fairness. We’ll pretend that it’s what God wants (because sure as shooting, actually doing what He says doesn’t get us what WE want, does it now?) We’ll make God into our image and likeness and never, ever have Him act in a way we don’t understand, or in which we have to sacrifice some of our needs and wants because surely ‘our God’ only wants us to have what we want!

 

[simpleas]

Originally Posted by Tantum ergo

Why?

Not being ‘alongside men’ in the hierarchy doesn’t make women lower or second class. It makes them not part of the hierarchy. So dang what?

I didn’t say it made women lower or second class, I said it was strange, because I believe God sees women as equal to men, and there isn’t a human women who represents Christ.

I am sure that Miriam, sister of Aaron and Moses, was just as capable as they were. She was probably at least as devout and ‘well spoken’ as Aaron was, and at least as loving and devout as Moses. I’m also sure that she didn’t kvetch at the well with the other Israelite women, “So yeah, everybody is all Moses Moses Moses but who’s the one here that is going around and making sure that the kids are all fed and the men are all fed, that we aren’t leaving a 40 year pile of litter in the desert, etc. I am, that’s who! God should have given ME the job of leading the people. I would have asked for directions so we weren’t wandering 40 years!”

This made me

For some reason, people nowadays seem to consider ‘roles’ as being the criterion of worth. What ever happened to people trying to be the best and holiest people that they could be?

Maybe it’s seen as a role to some.

How many saints do we have who really never accomplished anything in their lives (as opposed to the ‘successful’ people in the world’). St. Therese of the Child Jesus died at a young age, in a convent. She never had any ‘rank’. She took glory in being ‘little’.

This is true, most people do the greatest of things for others and are never recognised, this thread isn’t about success and status.

And it goes for men, too. Why do people think being a priest is meant to be some great big status symbol and some ‘power’? Seriously? Priests give up homes, family, prestige, wealth, personal autonomy, AND in their stead, they take on the care of not just their own souls, but those of the ones they serve

Some people may think being a priest is a status symbol and that they have some power in a not so Christian way.
Yet it is a sort of status, because one is identified as a priest, and I would say, there is an element of power given to a priest on the day of his ordination. Still this status and power should not be abused.

But no, you’re only important, as a woman (or a man) in how you look to others, not how you look to God. It’s the ‘outside’ that matters, apparently. It’s the title, it’s the ‘status’, it’s what you want, when you want, how you want. Oh sure, we’ll pretend that it’s all about fairness. We’ll pretend that it’s what God wants (because sure as shooting, actually doing what He says doesn’t get us what WE want, does it now?) We’ll make God into our image and likeness and never, ever have Him act in a way we don’t understand, or in which we have to sacrifice some of our needs and wants because surely ‘our God’ only wants us to have what we want!

I think you may feel better now you got that off your chest!

I don’t know how many men (or women) want to join the priesthood just so they can look good to other people, there maybe some. I would hope most do it for the reasons you stated above.
It’s amazing how people freak out about women in the priesthood as though it’s the most evil of thought ever (I don’t mean you). It’s also sad.

Thanks for your post.