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abucs
Guest
Just wondering what people’s thoughts are on this question. Thanks.
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Eric_Peter
Guest
from my own understanding, God allowed Hell to ‘be created’ by allowing His creatures to choose for themselves to be separated from Him.
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tonyrey
Guest
Precisely! Genuine freedom implies the power of self-determination. It is those who reject God who create their own Hell!
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slywakka250
Guest
This is a very complex question.
Maybe we should start out by asking, did have God have a choice in creating anything at all, could he have created nothing for all eternity??
Maybe we should start out by asking, did have God have a choice in creating anything at all, could he have created nothing for all eternity??
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tonyrey
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GloriousOrder
Guest
God did not create Hell, because Hell is not a place. Hell is the soul of a man who rejects God. It seems to be an inner, ontological reality you reach by your life, faith, and actions. In a sense, people who are “in Hell” are with God, because God is infinite and fills all things. We have to say that being in Hell is simply the state of hating God because you love sin. It’s an either/or situation.
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Robertanthony
Guest
To OP, do you mean creating Hell as opposed to annihilation, or Hell as opposed to another state that the eternally impenitent could “spend” their etenity in? Hell has not existed for all eternity, it was created specifically for the angels who sided with Lucifer when he rebelled and was driven out of Heaven. Creation embodies much more than mere physical reality or “places”, the angels are immaterial beings and no-one would deny that God created them. St-Faustina when she describes the 7 (?) degrees of pain in Hell states that the absolutely worst is being eternally separated from God. Knowing that, it can be imagined that God could have created something similar to this Earth for all the damned to live on, and to allow these souls to have some relative enjoyment, that would serve as a distraction from their hopeless state. Then again, Catholics have no obligation to believe in private revelations to saints.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
God didn’t create hell. Hell is not a physical place. Hell is a state for souls which suffer from separation from God. Our souls need our bodies to survive. In the spiritual world, those in communion with God are sustained by Him. Those who reject God do not have the body nor God to sustain them. Their souls are lost.
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nablaise
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Abba
Guest
I am of a different understanding than of those who think hell is only separation from God. I think hell is an actual place. I am not saying that those who expressed this understanding also hold the following, but, I do want to comment that some people who understand that Satan does not exist also hold this view of hell. They think that evil is the absence of good and fundamentally an absence of evil cannot be a being or beings and somehow conclude that Satan and demons do not exist just like hell does not exist.
“The Church has decided nothing on this subject (OF WHERE IT IS EXACTLY); hence we may say hell is a definite place; but where it is, we do not know.”
"Where is hell? Some were of opinion that hell is everywhere, that the damned are at liberty to roam about in the entire universe, but that they carry their punishment with them. The adherents of this doctrine were called Ubiquists, or Ubiquitarians; among them were, e.g., Johann Brenz, a Swabian, a Protestant theologian of the sixteenth century. However, that opinion is universally and deservedly rejected; for it is more in keeping with their state of punishment that the damned be limited in their movements and confined to a definite place. Moreover, if hell is a real fire, it cannot be everywhere, especially after the consummation of the world, when heaven and earth shall have been made anew. As to its locality all kinds of conjectures have been made; it has been suggested that hell is situated on some far island of the sea, or at the two poles of the earth; Swinden, an Englishman of the eighteenth century, fancied it was in the sun; some assigned it to the moon, others to Mars; others placed it beyond the confines of the universe [Wiest, “Instit. theol.”, VI (1789), 869]. The Bible seems to indicate that hell is within the earth, for it describes hell as an abyss to which the wicked descend. We even read of the earth opening and of the wicked sinking down into hell (Numbers 16:31 sqq.; Psalm 54:16; Isaiah 5:14; Ezekiel 26:20; Philippians 2:10, etc.). Is this merely a metaphor to illustrate the state of separation from God? Although God is omnipresent, He is said to dwell in heaven, because the light and grandeur of the stars and the firmament are the brightest manifestations of His infinite splendour. But the damned are utterly estranged from God; hence their abode is said to be as remote as possible from his dwelling, far from heaven above and its light, and consequently hidden away in the dark abysses of the earth. **However, no cogent reason has been advanced for accepting a metaphorical interpretation in preference to the most natural meaning of the words of Scripture. Hence theologians generally accept the opinion that hell is really within the earth. The Church has decided nothing on this subject; hence we may say hell is a definite place; but where it is, we do not know. **St. Chrysostom reminds us: “We must not ask where hell is, but how we are to escape it” (In Rom., hom. xxxi, n. 5, in P.G., LX, 674). St. Augustine says: “It is my opinion that the nature of hell-fire and the location of hell are known to no man unless the Holy Ghost made it known to him by a special revelation”, (City of God XX.16). Elsewhere he expresses the opinion that hell is under the earth (Retract., II, xxiv, n. 2 in P.L., XXXII, 640). St. Gregory the Great wrote: “I do not dare to decide this question. Some thought hell is somewhere on earth; others believe it is under the earth” (Dial., IV, xlii, in P.L., LXXVII, 400; cf. Patuzzi, “De sede inferni”, 1763; Gretser, “De subterraneis animarum receptaculis”, 1595). " newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm
I also consider the apparition to the children of Fatima:
The first message received at Fatima was this horrifying vision of Hell:
The first part of the Secret was a horrifying vision of hell “where the souls of poor sinners go” and contained an urgent plea from Our Lady for acts of prayer and sacrifice to save souls.
In her Memoirs, Sister Lucy (Lucy Dos Santos) describes the vision of hell that Our Lady showed the children at Fátima:
“She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear.” bibleprobe.com/fatimavisionsofhell.htm
I also consider that Heaven is a place and it is not a state of a soul, so why would hell be a state of a soul?
I also consider the rich man who died and wanted Lazarus to at least touch his lips with water but there was a great divide between them.
For these reasons, I think hell is a place and I do not want to go there. I also know and this for a fact that Satan and demons exist and one of their best tricks is to make people think that they don’t.
“The Church has decided nothing on this subject (OF WHERE IT IS EXACTLY); hence we may say hell is a definite place; but where it is, we do not know.”
"Where is hell? Some were of opinion that hell is everywhere, that the damned are at liberty to roam about in the entire universe, but that they carry their punishment with them. The adherents of this doctrine were called Ubiquists, or Ubiquitarians; among them were, e.g., Johann Brenz, a Swabian, a Protestant theologian of the sixteenth century. However, that opinion is universally and deservedly rejected; for it is more in keeping with their state of punishment that the damned be limited in their movements and confined to a definite place. Moreover, if hell is a real fire, it cannot be everywhere, especially after the consummation of the world, when heaven and earth shall have been made anew. As to its locality all kinds of conjectures have been made; it has been suggested that hell is situated on some far island of the sea, or at the two poles of the earth; Swinden, an Englishman of the eighteenth century, fancied it was in the sun; some assigned it to the moon, others to Mars; others placed it beyond the confines of the universe [Wiest, “Instit. theol.”, VI (1789), 869]. The Bible seems to indicate that hell is within the earth, for it describes hell as an abyss to which the wicked descend. We even read of the earth opening and of the wicked sinking down into hell (Numbers 16:31 sqq.; Psalm 54:16; Isaiah 5:14; Ezekiel 26:20; Philippians 2:10, etc.). Is this merely a metaphor to illustrate the state of separation from God? Although God is omnipresent, He is said to dwell in heaven, because the light and grandeur of the stars and the firmament are the brightest manifestations of His infinite splendour. But the damned are utterly estranged from God; hence their abode is said to be as remote as possible from his dwelling, far from heaven above and its light, and consequently hidden away in the dark abysses of the earth. **However, no cogent reason has been advanced for accepting a metaphorical interpretation in preference to the most natural meaning of the words of Scripture. Hence theologians generally accept the opinion that hell is really within the earth. The Church has decided nothing on this subject; hence we may say hell is a definite place; but where it is, we do not know. **St. Chrysostom reminds us: “We must not ask where hell is, but how we are to escape it” (In Rom., hom. xxxi, n. 5, in P.G., LX, 674). St. Augustine says: “It is my opinion that the nature of hell-fire and the location of hell are known to no man unless the Holy Ghost made it known to him by a special revelation”, (City of God XX.16). Elsewhere he expresses the opinion that hell is under the earth (Retract., II, xxiv, n. 2 in P.L., XXXII, 640). St. Gregory the Great wrote: “I do not dare to decide this question. Some thought hell is somewhere on earth; others believe it is under the earth” (Dial., IV, xlii, in P.L., LXXVII, 400; cf. Patuzzi, “De sede inferni”, 1763; Gretser, “De subterraneis animarum receptaculis”, 1595). " newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm
I also consider the apparition to the children of Fatima:
The first message received at Fatima was this horrifying vision of Hell:
The first part of the Secret was a horrifying vision of hell “where the souls of poor sinners go” and contained an urgent plea from Our Lady for acts of prayer and sacrifice to save souls.
In her Memoirs, Sister Lucy (Lucy Dos Santos) describes the vision of hell that Our Lady showed the children at Fátima:
“She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear.” bibleprobe.com/fatimavisionsofhell.htm
I also consider that Heaven is a place and it is not a state of a soul, so why would hell be a state of a soul?
I also consider the rich man who died and wanted Lazarus to at least touch his lips with water but there was a great divide between them.
For these reasons, I think hell is a place and I do not want to go there. I also know and this for a fact that Satan and demons exist and one of their best tricks is to make people think that they don’t.
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PAboy57
Guest
These are considered dogma of the Catholic Church:
- All the dead will rise again on the last day with their bodies. (De fide.)
- The bodies of the just will be re-modelled and transfigured to the pattern of the risen Christ. (Sent. certa.)
- The bodies of the godless will rise again in incorruption and immortality, but they will not be transfigured. (Sent. certa.)
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PAboy57
Guest
- The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell. (De fide. )
- The punishment of Hell lasts for all eternity. (De fide.)
- The punishment of the damned is proportioned to each one’s guilt. (Sent. communis.)
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ConstantineTG
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I’m missing this part that all including those who are in hell will be resurrected. Do you have links where I can read more about it?
Nevermind, found it here: catholic.com/library/Resurrection_of_the_Body.asp
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abucs
Guest
Thanks for everyone’s responses. To further clarify my questioning: i am quite comfortable with a non material world where our 3 dimensional space may be completely null and void, and I am sympathetic to the idea that Hell is a separation from God.
Even if our created material world is folded away though there must be a ‘place’ for Hell. That is, of everything that is created, there must be a space or a bubble or a dimension or a spiritual reality where Hell exists. And if people in Hell are there together with demons and are interacting with them and eachother in some way, then Hell must at least contain attributes similar to our 3 dimensions in which Beings can interact. Otherwise Hell must be complete loneliness, without God or anyone else (hence lots of Hells). In any case it seems it still needs a ‘reality’ in which to exist, and all realities (that is supported environments) are ultimately created by God.
Before God created anything, i’m assuming this space/bubble/dimension/reality/environment didn’t exist and if everything is created by God and allowed to exist perhaps with varying degrees of his presence - is Hell an option created by God because of His justice or a necessary form of reality that must exist once His respecting of the choice of man is estabished?
Thanks again. (and thanks for bringing up the visions of Hell at Fatima as this also interests me and i would appreciate any more comments on that particular vision).
Even if our created material world is folded away though there must be a ‘place’ for Hell. That is, of everything that is created, there must be a space or a bubble or a dimension or a spiritual reality where Hell exists. And if people in Hell are there together with demons and are interacting with them and eachother in some way, then Hell must at least contain attributes similar to our 3 dimensions in which Beings can interact. Otherwise Hell must be complete loneliness, without God or anyone else (hence lots of Hells). In any case it seems it still needs a ‘reality’ in which to exist, and all realities (that is supported environments) are ultimately created by God.
Before God created anything, i’m assuming this space/bubble/dimension/reality/environment didn’t exist and if everything is created by God and allowed to exist perhaps with varying degrees of his presence - is Hell an option created by God because of His justice or a necessary form of reality that must exist once His respecting of the choice of man is estabished?
Thanks again. (and thanks for bringing up the visions of Hell at Fatima as this also interests me and i would appreciate any more comments on that particular vision).
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ConstantineTG
Guest
No, God didn’t create hell. God is good, remember in the 6 days of Creation He called everything He made “good”.
Think of it this way, dark is not created. Dark is there when light is absent. Hell is merely a state of separation of God.
Think of it this way, dark is not created. Dark is there when light is absent. Hell is merely a state of separation of God.
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PAboy57
Guest
The visions of hell provided to various Saints didn’t look like a state of separation. You can choose to believe them or not.
I believe, according to the visions, that it is a real place where the evil don’t have any fun.
State of something or real place – either way nothing happens without God involved.
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Robertanthony
Guest
I think JP2 adressed the question of the actual existence of the fires of Hell shortly before 2000, and he commented that they weren’t real fires. I don’t know in what context he said that, if he really did say that, and if that’s binding for us Catholics. And God did prepare Hell for Satan and the myriad of angels who chose him over God, that’s a fact. There’s an abyss between Heaven and Hell, no damned could behold the Trinity if he wanted too. Some people think that Hell will be a place for sinners to engage in sin and pleasures of the senses, and that there’ll be an element of fun, and that the whole of their torment will be to not ever again be in the presence of God, whom their soul recognized as their only good once they died and faced personal judgment. I like to think that’s the case, or that their suffering will gradually decrease over eternity and that “only” the pain of loss will remain, but I think it’s not likely that either scenario will happen.
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abucs
Guest
Thanks again for everyone’s thoughts.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Visions remember are visions. They are interpretations of the person looking at something uncomprehensible to us. Even John in Revelations saw something seemingly concrete. But remember that the spiritual world is nothing like the physical world. If the saints didn’t see it that way, they wouldn’t have recognized it. In fact, I don’t think anyone would understand it if hell is shown as is.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Again, thats poetic explanation for something that cannot be explained in a physical world. We have no comprehension for the spiritual world, its something beyond our understanding. The visions or the explanation by Jesus are all analogies to the reality. Jesus knows what hell looks like and what it really is, but it doesn’t mean He can explain it as it is to us. Its not that He cannot, its that we will never understand. Not in this life anyway.
Think of it this way. Imagine if I were to get on a time machine and go back to 1st centure Judea. And I will tell the people there about the Internet. How do I do that? 2000 years of development of human thought. How do I even begin? That is how hell would be to us. Its beyond our normal comprehension. It can only be described as a firey lake, place were thirst cannot be quenched, eternal torment, great abyss, etc. Because those things are what we can understand with our own human senses. We know what an abyss is, what fire is like, etc.
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