Did God Have Control over the Effects of Original Sin?

[clarkal]

paramedicgirl:

I didn’t say life is fair. And as I said in my first post, God is not unjust in punishing us for Adam’s sin. Original sin, our punishment, does not take away anything we have an inherent right to. God simply removed his free gifts he would have given us, had Adam not sinned. That made us subject to disease & death, with an inclination to evil, and to forever have our reason in conflict with our passions. It’s that simple.

I didn’t say life was fair either. I was using an analogy that, as far as I can tell, applies to God’s relationship with Adam and Eve and demonstrates, I believe, that what he did was unjust.

I believe it is unjust for him to remove these free gifts on account of another person’s sin and then let us endure untold and immense suffering because of their sin.

And, yes, I understand that Adam was the ‘head of the human race’, but I don’t buy that explanation. See my previous posts.

paramedicgirl:

Remember, Adam & Eve wanted to be as powerful & great as God. They defied God and despised His warnings. God was just in punishing them. Maybe if you can understand that we did not inherit the punishment of Adam’s personal sin, but of his sin as head of the whole human race, then you will be able to understand that all Adam’s descendants are justly subject to suffering.

I’m not sure I understand the difference between the punishment of Adam’s personal sin and that of his being head of the whole human race. I mean, in the end, we are all suffering because of another person’s sin. As far as the household analogy goes, I told you what I thought about it, and I don’t buy into it. Reread my previous posts.

paramedicgirl:

If you know these moments are not inspired by God, then you may be dancing with the devil

You are saying that when I get a flash of conscience, and it’s not in line with Catholic moral theology, then it may be influenced by Lucifer?

The thing to remember here is that I do not believe in any god or gods, angels or demons. There is nothing for me to fear, so I don’t understand why you would say this to me, unless, of course, you were attempting a cheap appeal to emotion, which is ineffective against any real atheist.

 

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

Did you just call me a fool? Why, I oughta…

When talking with an atheist, *never *quote that verse. It does no good in helping you win him over to your cause. Most atheists love it when that verse is quoted to them and simply laugh at it, and the humorous ones will even quote back to you the verse which says that those who call another a fool will be in danger of hellfire. Others, however, will be upset and think that you’re insulting them. I don’t think it’s a wise thing to do. It doesn’t help progress.

Point taken. Thanks for the advice.

clarkal:

How did I become an atheist? Where do I begin?

For all my life, I have had an extreme anxiety condition and obsessive-compulsive disorder. When I reverted to Catholicism and became serious about the faith, the teaching of eternal punishment became a reality to me. It wasn’t some misty or airy dungeon of spiritual torture somewhere in the back of the cosmos: It was in the same room as I was in. It was as real as this keyboard I am typing on right now. As my father was dying of cancer, I had many doubts about whether he would end up in this fiery pit. He did great things and influenced so many people, but he was not religious, and he told me that he had indeed committed Mortal Sins and hadn’t been to confession in about 30 years. Naturally, I feared for his soul. With this anxiety, I began having the classic doubts about the doctrine of eternal punishment that almost every person goes through. During this time when my father was slowly and painfully dying from cancer, I was hospitalized for my abnormal behavior caused by the OCD and religious teachings on the hospital’s mental ward floor for about 5 days. On the day I was released, my father was in and out of consciousness and, shortly afterward, eventually died. I missed so much crucial time with him because of my OCD and religion, and saying that I’m a little pissed off is a gross understatement. I felt like I was abandonded by the heavenly court in my time of need.

After his death, I was thinking about hell constantly and whether he was actually there, which is a terrifying thought for a son who loves his father and thinks the world of him. Yes, if he’s there, it was his decision, his free will, and it is a just punishment, and when – if – you get to heaven, you will have a full view of the burning multitudes, and you will not have any pity or sadness towards them but joy knowing that God’s glory and justice were being glorified (I know the last bit isn’t official, but it’s what I thought at the time after reading Aquinas.)

In my attempt to get some answers to my doubts about hell, I stumbled upon the Secular Web’s web site. I read Robert Green Ingersoll, Richard Carrier, Robert M. Price, Biblical Errancy and Biblical Criticsm. I read their message board frequently and followed the formal debates and posters whom I knew were extremely intelligent and erudite. I read atheistic books, but I also read Christian apologetics, but in my mind, in the end, I decided that the skeptics were in the right.

What convinced me in the end at this point? That’s really hard to pin down, but I’ll try to recall and give it some more thought. I know that Biblical Criticism played a huge role and the writings of Ingersoll also. But there were so many things going on in my head, so many objections, so much apologetics, that I can’t recall what finally pushed me over the edge.

Enough about me. Why are you Catholic?

best,

clarkal

I am cradle Catholic who stopped going to Mass around the age of 13. I never knew much about my faith as a child, even though I should have, since my mother was and is a very devout, traditional Catholic. As a young adult, I kept feeling pulled towards God. I explored a few religions that were non-
Catholic, but they never had much pull on me.

I always felt drawn to the Catholic Church. When I moved to my current town, I was always going to the library for secular books, since I am a voracious reader. Then a funny thing happened. All the books I ordered just stopped coming in. Totally stopped. (I live in a small town, and our library is not immense, so we order the books in from a parent library). I told a Catholic friend of mine about how strange it was that my books would never arrive. I had nothing to read. She said, “I can lend you some books”. I gratefully accepted. She lent me 20 books on the Catholic faith, and I have never stopped reading Catholic books since. This was 8 years ago. I am very thankful to God for His intervention in my life. I also know how fortunate I am to have been born into a Catholic family. There is no greater blessing, and I am very grateful to my mother for raising me Catholic.

 

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

You are saying that when I get a flash of conscience, and it’s not in line with Catholic moral theology, then it may be influenced by Lucifer?

Yes. I would consider that as a possibility. If it happened to me, I would fast, pray & discern, but then I am a believer.

clarkal:

The thing to remember here is that I do not believe in any god or gods, angels or demons. There is nothing for me to fear, so I don’t understand why you would say this to me, unless, of course, you were attempting a cheap appeal to emotion, which is ineffective against any real atheist.

No cheap appeal at emotion happening here. Just stating my beliefs, as you also are doing. I, however, do have fear. Fear of the Lord. It makes me dread sin as evil, because sin is so offensive to God.

 

[Journeyman]

Clarkal,

Just curious, but since you are an atheist, what do you believe happens to you upon your death?

 

[clarkal]

paramedicgirl:

Point taken. Thanks for the advice.

I am cradle Catholic who stopped going to Mass around the age of 13. I never knew much about my faith as a child, even though I should have, since my mother was and is a very devout, traditional Catholic. As a young adult, I kept feeling pulled towards God. I explored a few religions that were non-
Catholic, but they never had much pull on me.

I always felt drawn to the Catholic Church. When I moved to my current town, I was always going to the library for secular books, since I am a voracious reader. Then a funny thing happened. All the books I ordered just stopped coming in. Totally stopped. (I live in a small town, and our library is not immense, so we order the books in from a parent library). I told a Catholic friend of mine about how strange it was that my books would never arrive. I had nothing to read. She said, “I can lend you some books”. I gratefully accepted. She lent me 20 books on the Catholic faith, and I have never stopped reading Catholic books since. This was 8 years ago. I am very thankful to God for His intervention in my life. I also know how fortunate I am to have been born into a Catholic family. There is no greater blessing, and I am very grateful to my mother for raising me Catholic.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

What was the major reason why you reverted to Catholicism besides a feeling of you being drawn to it?

 

[clarkal]

Journeyman:

Clarkal,

Just curious, but since you are an atheist, what do you believe happens to you upon your death?

I do not belive in a soul or an afterlife. What happens when I die? I believe that I simply cease to exist.

What gives me comfort is that I will continue on in a sense, and this passage from ebonmusings.org explains this process very poetically:

"Compared to the great vastness of the cosmos, the ocean of deep time, my individual existence is a blip, a bubble in the foam on the surface of a flowing river. I am a momentary arrangement of atoms and molecules - an arrangement that lives and moves, to be sure, an arrangement that thinks, laughs, appreciates beauty, dreams, and loves - but a mere arrangement nonetheless, a transient state, an ephemeral gathering. Soon the blip will go out, the bubble will pop, the arrangement will dissolve, molecular bonds released by entropy. My consciousness will cease. But the molecules that once were me will still exist. The atoms that made up my body - iron, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, all the heavy elements forged in the crucibles of dying stars - will remain. Liberated from their temporary home, they will rejoin the rest of the planet, taking new shapes, finding new arrangements, becoming part of other life. I will become merged with everything.

I will become part of the trees that grow wherever my ashes are scattered, joining the ecosystem of the forest. I will be in the slow green heartwood of the trunks as they patiently tick off the centuries, in the buds that burst forth in spring and in the leaves that explode with color in autumn. I will be the sparkle of sunlight on the surface of a flowing mountain stream. I will sink into the earth and mix with the groundwater, eventually flowing back and rejoining the ocean where all life on this planet ultimately began. I will be in the waves that crash on the shore, in the warm sheltered tidal pools, in the coral reefs that bloom with life, and in the depths that echo with whale songs. I will be subducted into the planet’s core and join the three-hundred-million-year cycle of the continental plates. I will rise into the sky and, in the fullness of time, become dispersed throughout the atmosphere, until every breath will contain part of me. And billions of years from now, when our sun swells and blasts the Earth’s atmosphere away, I will be there, streaming into space to rejoin the stars that gave my atoms birth. And perhaps some day, billions of years yet beyond that, on some distant planet beneath bright alien skies, an atom that once was part of me will take part in a series of chemical reactions that may ultimately lead to new life - life that will in time leave the sea that gave it birth, crawl up onto the beach, and look up into the cosmos and wonder where it came from. And the cycle will begin again."

 

[clarkal]

paramedicgirl:

Yes. I would consider that as a possibility. If it happened to me, I would fast, pray & discern, but then I am a believer.

No cheap appeal at emotion happening here. Just stating my beliefs, as you also are doing. I, however, do have fear. Fear of the Lord. It makes me dread sin as evil, because sin is so offensive to God.

I understand, and, since you are a smart lady, I didn’t expect you would attempt to play with my emotions, but I had to ask.

 

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

What was the major reason why you reverted to Catholicism besides a feeling of you being drawn to it?

I was seeking the truth, and never found it in other faiths. (I must admit that I never entered other faiths, I just read about them). Learning Catholicism, as an adult, to me, was like being infused with the truth, and I have never looked back. I cannot emphasize enough the gratitude I feel towards God and towards my mother for grounding me in the Catholic faith.

 

[clarkal]

paramedicgirl:

I was seeking the truth, and never found it in other faiths. (I must admit that I never entered other faiths, I just read about them). Learning Catholicism, as an adult, to me, was like being infused with the truth, and I have never looked back. I cannot emphasize enough the gratitude I feel towards God and towards my mother for grounding me in the Catholic faith.

I see. I’m curious: Which secular books did you read and how long did you consider atheism? And, I’m not asking this because I think you might have read the wrong books and that I might have better books for you to read that will convince you of atheism or that if you had considered atheism for only a short time, you would’ve been convinced if you thought about it longer. No, I’m just interested in knowing what you read and why you weren’t convinced.

 

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

I see. I’m curious: Which secular books did you read and how long did you consider atheism? And, I’m not asking this because I think you might have read the wrong books and that I might have better books for you to read that will convince you of atheism or that if you had considered atheism for only a short time, you would’ve been convinced if you thought about it longer. No, I’m just interested in knowing what you read and why you weren’t convinced.

I never gravitated towards atheism. I have always believed in God. When I was away from the Church, I read the Book of Mormons, and various literature on JW’s as well as being influenced towards evangelical Protestantism.
I do have atheists in my family, though, one of my brothers. We have great debates on religion, similar to what you and I are discussing.
And by the way, I would never jeopardize my faith by reading books on atheism.

 

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

I do not belive in a soul or an afterlife. What happens when I die? I believe that I simply cease to exist.

What gives me comfort is that I will continue on in a sense, and this passage from ebonmusings.org explains this process very poetically:

"Compared to the great vastness of the cosmos, the ocean of deep time, my individual existence is a blip, a bubble in the foam on the surface of a flowing river. I am a momentary arrangement of atoms and molecules - an arrangement that lives and moves, to be sure, an arrangement that thinks, laughs, appreciates beauty, dreams, and loves - but a mere arrangement nonetheless, a transient state, an ephemeral gathering. Soon the blip will go out, the bubble will pop, the arrangement will dissolve, molecular bonds released by entropy. My consciousness will cease. But the molecules that once were me will still exist. The atoms that made up my body - iron, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, all the heavy elements forged in the crucibles of dying stars - will remain. Liberated from their temporary home, they will rejoin the rest of the planet, taking new shapes, finding new arrangements, becoming part of other life. I will become merged with everything.

I will become part of the trees that grow wherever my ashes are scattered, joining the ecosystem of the forest. I will be in the slow green heartwood of the trunks as they patiently tick off the centuries, in the buds that burst forth in spring and in the leaves that explode with color in autumn. I will be the sparkle of sunlight on the surface of a flowing mountain stream. I will sink into the earth and mix with the groundwater, eventually flowing back and rejoining the ocean where all life on this planet ultimately began. I will be in the waves that crash on the shore, in the warm sheltered tidal pools, in the coral reefs that bloom with life, and in the depths that echo with whale songs. I will be subducted into the planet’s core and join the three-hundred-million-year cycle of the continental plates. I will rise into the sky and, in the fullness of time, become dispersed throughout the atmosphere, until every breath will contain part of me. And billions of years from now, when our sun swells and blasts the Earth’s atmosphere away, I will be there, streaming into space to rejoin the stars that gave my atoms birth. And perhaps some day, billions of years yet beyond that, on some distant planet beneath bright alien skies, an atom that once was part of me will take part in a series of chemical reactions that may ultimately lead to new life - life that will in time leave the sea that gave it birth, crawl up onto the beach, and look up into the cosmos and wonder where it came from. And the cycle will begin again."

Is this really what you believe? How sad that you have nothing to look forward to. What peace of mind I have believing in the eternaI existence of the soul.
I have often heard a quote, though I can’t recall it’s source - “The greatest trick of the devil is to make people believe he doesn’t exist” Was this Bishop Fulton Sheen???

 

[barsapp]

clarkal:

What gives me comfort is that I will continue on in a sense, and this passage from ebonmusings.org explains this process very poetically:
“Compared to the great vastness of the cosmos, the ocean of deep time, my individual existence is a blip, a bubble in the foam on the surface of a flowing river. I am a momentary arrangement of atoms and molecules - an arrangement that lives and moves, to be sure, an arrangement that thinks, laughs, appreciates beauty, dreams, and loves - but a mere arrangement nonetheless, a transient state, an ephemeral gathering. Soon the blip will go out, the bubble will pop, the arrangement will dissolve, molecular bonds released by entropy. My consciousness will cease. But the molecules that once were me will still exist. The atoms that made up my body - iron, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, all the heavy elements forged in the crucibles of dying stars - will remain. Liberated from their temporary home, they will rejoin the rest of the planet, taking new shapes, finding new arrangements, becoming part of other life. I will become merged with everything.”

It sounds to me very similar to Democritus, 400 hundred years before Christ… (”Nothing is new under the sun.” Ecc. 1, 9).

(Nothing to wonder at: 2500 years later we are still discussing the same issues, usually with the same arguments. That’s why I like to quote old Council texts.

What really matters: some die expecting to live the true life in God. Others die expecting nothing. You do not have to be very smart to notice that the first option is the “reasonable” one. With the first one, you could gain eternal life. With the second one, certainly nothing. If the first one results false, you lose nothing. If the second one results false, you lose all. Nobody is saved against its own will.

 

[paramedicgirl]

barsapp:

What really matters: some die expecting to live the true life in God. Others die expecting nothing. You do not have to be very smart to notice that the first option is the “reasonable” one. With the first one, you could gain eternal life. With the second one, certainly nothing. If the first one results false, you lose nothing. If the second one results false, you lose all. Nobody is saved against its own will.

I like what you said, Barsapp. It reminds me of something I just came across that said if you’re not really sure that God exists, isn’t it safer to believe in Him?

 

[clarkal]

paramedicgirl:

Is this really what you believe? How sad that you have nothing to look forward to. What peace of mind I have believing in the eternaI existence of the soul.
I have often heard a quote, though I can’t recall it’s source - “The greatest trick of the devil is to make people believe he doesn’t exist” Was this Bishop Fulton Sheen???

The only anxiety over death that I have is the pain it will cause my family, and that I don’t want to miss out on their lives. But I don’t worry about it constantly. I live my life based on what I believe is true, which way the evidence swings, in my mind. I can’t believe in something because it’s comforting yet has, I think, no good evidence to support it. That would be irrational. But I have an extraordinary amount of peace, more than I did when I was religious. I have this peace because I believe that there is no hell.

Personally, If I had to choose over an afterlife with an innumerable amount of people suffering eternally or non-existence, I would choose non-existence, regardless of how I thought I would “feel” about it in the next life and whether I thought they “chose” it.
I don’t think anyone would really choose an eternity of suffering, no matter how much they disliked or hated God, because I don’t think people can truly comprehend the horror of hell in this life enough to understand its seriousness, its eternity. Even if you were a monk who has thought about hell for 70 years straight non-stop, you would still not understand its seriousness. For that reason, I personally don’t think anyone can be really culpable. My main question extracted from all this would be, “How can there be a level of understanding of the seriousness of your sin when God and hell are eternal?” What if one thought about it for only 3 minutes? But in Catholicism, thinking about the seriousness of a sin for 3 minutes straight is enough time for one to merit eternal hell. Heck, I remember reading that 10 seconds is sometimes enough. What if the person thought about it for about a 1 minute, wasn’t convinced, and then thought about it for an extra 3 minutes and became convinced it was not worth risking eternal life? Well, if he decided to act upon his 1 minute reflection, he would still be culpable, even though his understand was not as good as when he thought about it for 3 minutes.

The above has always perplexed me, and if anyone can clear it up, go right ahead. I appreciate it.

 

[clarkal]

barsapp:

What really matters: some die expecting to live the true life in God. Others die expecting nothing. You do not have to be very smart to notice that the first option is the “reasonable” one. With the first one, you could gain eternal life. With the second one, certainly nothing. If the first one results false, you lose nothing. If the second one results false, you lose all. Nobody is saved against its own will.

First, thank you for insulting my intelligence.

What you just stated is a form of Pascal’s Wager. It is really not a very good argument. Search Google.com for refutations of it. I’m too tired to go into it right now.

 

[clarkal]

paramedicgirl:

I never gravitated towards atheism. I have always believed in God. When I was away from the Church, I read the Book of Mormons, and various literature on JW’s as well as being influenced towards evangelical Protestantism.
I do have atheists in my family, though, one of my brothers. We have great debates on religion, similar to what you and I are discussing.
And by the way, I would never jeopardize my faith by reading books on atheism.

Oh, I see. I thought you said that you read some secular writing? I took this to mean atheistic writings. Pardon me if you meant something else!

I understand the part about jeopardizing your faith. For me, I had so many doubts that I believed it would be sinful* not to* settle them, as I was counseled by Fr. Bob Levis that they would just become worse and damage my life of faith, so I read skeptical literature.

 

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

Oh, I see. I thought you said that you read some secular writing? I took this to mean atheistic writings. Pardon me if you meant something else!
I

I read so many secular books I can’t name or count them. They only served to keep me occupied, so I wouldn’t think about God. Mindless entertainment, if you will.

 

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

Personally, If I had to choose over an afterlife with an innumerable amount of people suffering eternally or non-existence, I would choose non-existence, regardless of how I thought I would “feel” about it in the next life and whether I thought they “chose” it.
I don’t think anyone would really choose an eternity of suffering, no matter how much they disliked or hated God, because I don’t think people can truly comprehend the horror of hell in this life enough to understand its seriousness, its eternity. Even if you were a monk who has thought about hell for 70 years straight non-stop, you would still not understand its seriousness. For that reason, I personally don’t think anyone can be really culpable…

I don’t believe that non-existence will be one of your choices, Clarkal. When souls are condemned to hell, it is because they have chosen to go there by their own free will. They have willfully, deliberately and knowingly refused to obey the commands of God. They know they cannot stand the sight of God because of His holiness. So they willingly consign themselves to hell. You are right, though, if more people would meditate on the terrors of hell, there would be a lot more conversions.

clarkal:

My main question extracted from all this would be, “How can there be a level of understanding of the seriousness of your sin when God and hell are eternal?”

Because of our moral consciences. And also because you have the understanding to realize what you are asking. You have obviously given it a lot of thought. Clarkal, I don’t believe you are an atheist. I think you know that God exists, you just chose not to believe in Him.

clarkal:

What if one thought about it for only 3 minutes? But in Catholicism, thinking about the seriousness of a sin for 3 minutes straight is enough time for one to merit eternal hell. Heck, I remember reading that 10 seconds is sometimes enough. What if the person thought about it for about a 1 minute, wasn’t convinced, and then thought about it for an extra 3 minutes and became convinced it was not worth risking eternal life? Well, if he decided to act upon his 1 minute reflection, he would still be culpable, even though his understand was not as good as when he thought about it for 3 minutes.

I think with all your knowledge of the Catholic faith you realize that for a sin to be mortal, 3 conditions have to exist;1) it must be of grave matter, 2) the person committing the sin must know it is serious, and 3) the person must give full consent of the will. So what does 10 seconds, 1 minute or 3 minutes have to do with anything?

 

[clarkal]

paramedicgirl:

I don’t believe that non-existence will be one of your choices, Clarkal. When souls are condemned to hell, it is because they have chosen to go there by their own free will. They have willfully, deliberately and knowingly refused to obey the commands of God. They know they cannot stand the sight of God because of His holiness. So they willingly consign themselves to hell. You are right, though, if more people would meditate on the terrors of hell, there would be a lot more conversions.

If the God of Christianity exists, then no, I will not have that choice, as I would have an eternal soul, incapable of destruction. But when I said that *‘If *Had the choice’, I was just making the point that I believe it is better not to exist than suffer unimaginable pain eternally. I was not saying that I will have the choice. But I do not think that I will, as I believe that my consciousness will cease after death. Therefore, in my mind, there is no choice anyway. Truth is independent of what one believes, of course. Your beliefs or my beliefs could be false. All we can do is interpret the evidence and make our best decision and not worry.

Yes, *some *people would be converted if they thought more about hell. It has no effect, however, on the emotionally stable atheist who is firm in believing that there is no good evidence to support the existence of a god.

paramedicgirl:

Because of our moral consciences. And also because you have the understanding to realize what you are asking. You have obviously given it a lot of thought. Clarkal, I don’t believe you are an atheist. I think you know that God exists, you just chose not to believe in Him.

Could you explain a little bit more? What do you mean when you say “because of our moral consciences?”

Why do you think that I am not really an atheist? I’m interested in knowing your reasons for thinking so.

paramedicgirl:

I think with all your knowledge of the Catholic faith you realize that for a sin to be mortal, 3 conditions have to exist;1) it must be of grave matter, 2) the person committing the sin must know it is serious, and 3) the person must give full consent of the will. So what does 10 seconds, 1 minute or 3 minutes have to do with anything?

Right, I realize that three conditions have to be fulfilled. In my post, I was taking for granted that the other two were being fulfilled. I was talking about having full knowledge or sufficient reflection and *how *that is attainable when matters of sin and hell are serious to an eternal and infinite degree.

What I posted about having full knowledge was actually just a thought that has been rattling through my head for a while. I have not fully thought it through, so I put it out there for someone to clear up any mistakes in my thinking about the issue. It is not a major reason for my not believing in the moral teachings of the Church, however.

(edit: I just realized that I wasn’t clear in my previous post. I was talking about being guilty of Mortal Sin. I apologize.)

 

[clarkal]

paramedicgirl:

I read so many secular books I can’t name or count them. They only served to keep me occupied, so I wouldn’t think about God. Mindless entertainment, if you will.

I see. What do you mean, though: “so I wouldn’t think about God”? Why didn’t you want to think about him?