C
ckempston
Guest
Simple question for you: when was the Lamb slain? I’ll give you an opportunity to look that up.
- Status
C
ckempston
Guest
Because God planned it that way?
The first thing that comes to mind is where Jesus could not perform miracles where people had no faith? Am I correct in my assumption? Where does faith come from?
If you have other examples, I’m open to discuss specific ones.
B
buffalo
Guest
We are speaking of the created. The Creator is by definition uncreated, Soooooo…
Creatures need to be created by their Creator to have free will.
P
Prodigal_Son
Guest
I’m not blaming God, because I believe in free will.
P
Prodigal_Son
Guest
Why? Why call something evil, and then make it happen?
Faith comes from the gift of God, and its acceptance by man. **Both **are necessary.
C
ckempston
Guest
I disagree that man has free will. But it’s self-evident that whatever properties the created have, they have because the creator made them that way.
That being said, they cannot have free will without violating God’s Sovereignty. God is either sovereign or man has free will. You can’t have it both ways. Well, you could pretend like most of Chrsitianity, and just call it a paradox and create a multitude of problems and absurdities.
C
ckempston
Guest
Because it’s all a part of the plan that was set in place from the foundation of the world?
Chapter and verse? Faith certainly comes from God, but I find the second part of your statement questionable. I could be wrong. Just doesn’t ring a bell with any passages of scripture off the top of my head.
P
Prodigal_Son
Guest
But, if we assume every human choice is “rigged” by God, that plan doesn’t make any sense!
Let me ask you this: if someone put a gun to your head and told you to break into your neighbor’s house, would **you **be responsible for that crime? Or this: if someone put a gun to your head and told you to love God, would **you **be truly loving, or would it all be pretense?
Without free will, there is no love; there is, in fact, no responsibility at all, except God’s responsibility. There are ways to reconcile God’s act of creation with the existence of human free will. Are you interested in hearing about them?
Philippians 2:12-13
“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.”
This indicates that the power to will and act according to God’s will comes from God, which I know you would agree with. But it does not say that the power to resist God’s will comes from God; rather, it says that the work that we do “working out our own salvation” should be done in fear and trembling. If God’s work were necessarily effectual in us – if we didn’t have to say “yes” – then why would Paul recommend fear and trembling? It seems, rather, that we ought to simply be, like Oedipus, resigned to our fate.
B
buffalo
Guest
Because God is sovereign He can indeed choose to create beings that have choice within the universe He created.
For example, we can choose between colors but we cannot create a new primary color.
God can also inspire us without rigid predestination.
L
lucy_fur
Guest
I would just like to say that if any of you actually did believe in hell, you would never sin once in your lives, you would be absolutely scared to death, it would be horrific, because you know that you are under total surveillance, even your thoughts! Especially if you don’t know if god capricious like he is, has chosen you to be a sinner!!
Don’t tell me you do believe, because that would mean you couldn’t possibly have sinned, risking eternal pain, torment and horror, nobody would surely be that stupid!!
Hence no hell, so do we all go to heaven or is it just like before we were born?
Don’t tell me you do believe, because that would mean you couldn’t possibly have sinned, risking eternal pain, torment and horror, nobody would surely be that stupid!!
Hence no hell, so do we all go to heaven or is it just like before we were born?
B
buffalo
Guest
This is not true. Our emotions and pride undermine your claim.
When you were a child and you knew that if you did something that you would be punished for, many times you still did it. Why?
L
lucy_fur
Guest
because I knew I wouldn’t suffer ETERNAL pain and suffering. I think you fail to grasp how horrific hell is. What a kind god for creating hell, for all those using their free will and made bad choices. If god were all loving then he would also be all forgiving, I mean really even I am forgiving, so god must be unbelievably forgiving, rendering hell completely superfluous.
And even if he didn’t forgive everyone, why create it all, and know exactly what will happen and then judge it although you already knew? Let’s be honest, grown up, intelligent and rational beings, you can see the stupidity in ALL other religion, why not in the one you were BORN INTO?
B
buffalo
Guest
God does not choose eternal separation for you. You do. You either face God and move toward him or you turn your back to him. He always faces you with open arms, ready and waiting.
The pain and suffering is not being able to be with Him which is the most one could lose. That is why the pain and suffering and gnashing of teeth is a consequence of hell.
Now we must spend some time on the all loving and merciful part.
God is indeed all loving and all merciful. But He is also perfectly just. He can be no other way.
All religions are not totally stupid. Most have kernels of truth. Catholicism possesses the “fullness of truth”
Now that you know the above you have to make a choice. You can no longer plead ignorance.
L
lucy_fur
Guest
Turn your back on HIM… and face hell? no way do I want to go to hell, impossible choice, hence no free will.
Catholicism possesses the “fullness of truth”
Islam possesses the “fullness of truth”
and so on, you all claim evidence
How childish your claim, especially if you have never experienced the love of allah. If you would like to know allah’s love then just have faith in him…“how do I know?” you ask… because it says it in this holy book written by a prophet who definitely lived, a lot more proof then for jesus.
You see now that your arguments are as weak as the argument for islam.
If hell is not being with god then that’s great!! or is there really more to it? Where’s the punishment god so eagerly dishes out?
Catholicism possesses the “fullness of truth”
Islam possesses the “fullness of truth”
and so on, you all claim evidence
How childish your claim, especially if you have never experienced the love of allah. If you would like to know allah’s love then just have faith in him…“how do I know?” you ask… because it says it in this holy book written by a prophet who definitely lived, a lot more proof then for jesus.
You see now that your arguments are as weak as the argument for islam.
If hell is not being with god then that’s great!! or is there really more to it? Where’s the punishment god so eagerly dishes out?
B
buffalo
Guest
Are you aware that Muslims and Christians worship the very same God of Abraham?
As a father there I times where I must punish my children for their own good. I do not like it but it is necessary. God is a father to us. He knows us well. He knows what we will do, just like I know many times what my own children will do. I know the traps each one may fall into. Why? Because I have a personal relationship with them.
People do choose to turn their back on God everyday. So they make a free will choice. Most of them have heard about hell. They may be ignorant and fear hell for the sake of not wanting to be in that state. That is a more of an immature view of hell. As Children grow and they obey their parents they do so more out of love for their parents than fear. As Catholics grow in love of God they act towards God out of love and not wanting to hurt Him. They act in a way where they want to be with God more like you want to be with a close friend or loved one. We want to spend time in God’s presence so to speak. And when we do we are filled with immense joy and satisfaction. This experience is real.
When one sees a good movie they tell their friends and recommend seeing it. So to when we experience the intimacy of God in Holy Communion, we want everyone to enjoy what we do.
Moving towards God is a journey though, most times taken with baby steps.
B
buffalo
Guest
How do you know you do not want to experience Hell? You must agree then that there is something much much better. I am sure you understand beauty and are drawn to it.
P
Prodigal_Son
Guest
Interesting claim, partly accurate. If we **knew **that sin led to hell, then we wouldn’t be free. But our sins are because we do not know, because we lack faith.
In short, you’ve explained why God does not reveal himself fully to us, beyond all doubt. If he did, we would not have free will.
L
lucy_fur
Guest
Why the Christian God is Impossible
by Chad Docterman
Introduction
Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny. I strongly disagree with this assumption not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.
Proving a Universal Negative
It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.
I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh’s existence to be an impossibility.
Defining YHWH
Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.
God’s creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.
Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection
What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete–it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.
Perfection Begets Imperfection
But, for the sake of argument, let’s continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God’s image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.
by Chad Docterman
Introduction
Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny. I strongly disagree with this assumption not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.
Proving a Universal Negative
It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.
I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh’s existence to be an impossibility.
Defining YHWH
Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.
God’s creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.
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One Bible verse which Christians are fond of quoting says that atheists are fools. I intend to show that the above concepts of God are completely incompatible and so reveal the impossibility of all of them being true. Who is the fool? The fool is the one who believes impossible things and calls them divine mysteries.What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete–it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.
Perfection Begets Imperfection
But, for the sake of argument, let’s continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God’s image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.
What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.
L
lucy_fur
Guest
The Freewill Argument
The Christians’ objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God’s originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.
Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.
Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?
All-good God Knowingly Creates Future Suffering
God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.
Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins
God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God’s sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.
Belief More Important Than Action
Perfection’s Imperfect Revelation
The Christians’ objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God’s originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.
Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.
Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?
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The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.
Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins
God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God’s sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.
Belief More Important Than Action
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Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.
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The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.
No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.
L
lucy_fur
Guest
Contradictory Justice
Contradictory History
Unfulfilled Prophecy
The Omniscient Changes the Future
The Omniscient is Surprised
The Conclusion of the matter
“You are a fool for denying the existence of the IPU. You have rejected true faith and have relied on your feeble powers of human reason and thus arrogantly denied the existence of Her Divine Transcendence, and so are you condemned.”
As for me and my house, we shall choose reality.
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One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.
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The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?
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The Bible misinterprets its own prophecies. Read Isaiah 7 and compare it to Matthew 1 to find but one of many misinterpreted prophecies of which Christians are either passively or willfully ignorant. The fulfillment of prophecy in the Bible is cited as proof of its divine inspiration, and yet here is but one major example of a prophecy whose intended meaning has been and continues to be twisted to support subsequent absurd and false doctrines. There are no ends to which the credulous will not go to support their feeble beliefs in the face of compelling evidence against them.
The Bible is imperfect. It only takes one imperfection to destroy the supposed perfection of this alleged Word of God. Many have been found. A perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible.
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A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible.
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A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.
We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.
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I have offered arguments for the impossibility, and thus the non- existence, of the Christian God Yahweh. No reasonable and freethinking individual can accept the existence of a being whose nature is so contradictory as that of Yahweh, the "perfect" creator of our imperfect universe. The existence of Yahweh is as impossible as the existence of cubic spheres or invisible pink unicorns.
Should any Christian who reads this persist in defending these impossibilities through means of "divine transcendence" and "faith," and should any Christian continue to call me an atheist fool, I will be forced to invoke the wrath of the Invisible Pink Unicorn:
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If such arguments are good enough for Yahweh, they are good enough for Her Invisible Pinkness.- Status