Did God Know Everything in Advance?

[Old_Scholar]

Your Scripture references do not reveal that God changed His mind. What is does reveal is God’s sorrow for our choices… In each case you’ve presented, nothing is stated that reveals what happened was not as God knew would happen.

Is 46
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.
10 **I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come. **
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.

1 Jn 3:20
in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things

These are but two passages that speak to God’s omniscience. And God’s omniscience does not negate our free will.

You appear to have issue with God doing God’s will in God’s time.

So you believe God negotiated with Abraham over how many people were righteous in Sodom and Gommorrah because God knew Abraham would want to negotiate with him…even though Abraham did not want to negotiate the death of his son.

**Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21) I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. 22) And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. 23) And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24) Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25) That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26) And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. 27) And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes: 28) Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. 29) And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty’s sake. 30) And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there. 31) And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty’s sake. 32) And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake. 33) And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
**

Do you believe Abraham did not change God’s mind?

 

[DD2007]

In taking Paul’s writings out of context, you have eliminated the need for a Bible, church or preaching…There is no need, everything is already settled…Is that what you are saying?

Not at all.

God knows exactley what is going to happen. We simply follow His instructions as given in the great commission. He knows, we don’t. That is His will. So we do what we can.

 

[cfrancis]

So you believe God negotiated with Abraham over how many people were righteous in Sodom and Gommorrah because God knew Abraham would want to negotiate with him…even though Abraham did not want to negotiate the death of his son.
Do you believe Abraham did not change God’s mind?

How exactly did Abraham change God’s mind?
Gen 18:
16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way.
17 Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?
Gen 19:29
24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.
25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.
If Soddom and Gomorah had been spared, I’d say you had a point.

Also, your position, with regard to this passage about Abraham “bargaining” with God, appears to have God “gambling” with the lives of the citizens of Soddom and Gamorah, not really sure if He’ll be able to carry out His will.
It seems, rather, that God allows Abraham to respond as his will dictates, regardless of God’s will re: the cities. This would be along the lines of unanswered prayers.

 

[Old_Scholar]

How exactly did Abraham change God’s mind?
Gen 18:
16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way.
17 Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?
Gen 19:29
24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.
25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.
If Soddom and Gomorah had been spared, I’d say you had a point.

Also, your position, with regard to this passage about Abraham “bargaining” with God, appears to have God “gambling” with the lives of the citizens of Soddom and Gamorah, not really sure if He’ll be able to carry out His will.
It seems, rather, that God allows Abraham to respond as his will dictates, regardless of God’s will re: the cities. This would be along the lines of unanswered prayers.

You didn’t read the right Scriptures. Look at this:

Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21) I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22) And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. 23) And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24) Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25) That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26) And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. 27) And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes: 28) Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. 29) And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty’s sake. 30) And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there. 31) And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty’s sake. 32) And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake. 33) And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

Perhaps you just didn’t read the Scriptures right. Here Abraham is bargaining with God and talks Him down to only 10 righteous men in Sodom and Gommorrah.

This is certainly “bargaining with the Lord.”

That’s the biggest problem I have with those who don’t respect the Scriptures. They don’t really read them.

 

[cfrancis]

You didn’t read the right Scriptures. Look at this:

Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21) I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22) And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. 23) And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24) Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25) That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26) And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. 27) And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes: 28) Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. 29) And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty’s sake. 30) And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there. 31) And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty’s sake. 32) And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake. 33) And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

Perhaps you just didn’t read the Scriptures right. Here Abraham is bargaining with God and talks Him down to only 10 righteous men in Sodom and Gommorrah.

This is certainly “bargaining with the Lord.”

That’s the biggest problem I have with those who don’t respect the Scriptures. They don’t really read them.

The problem I have with those who don’t respect the Scriptures is the insertion of an agenda into the text.
First, you’ve begun with the conclusion and insert that assumption into the text. Nowhere in the above text is God revealed as changing His mind.
Next, your assumption is God didn’t know how many “righteous” were in Sodom and Gomorrah. The fact the cities were destroyed, shows God knew the answer without His taking a census.
Please note, in Gen 19, the angels say:
12 Then the two men said to Lot, “Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons, and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place;
13** for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the LORD that the LORD has sent us to destroy it**.”
Nowhere does Scripture tell us God had to take a census of the cities to see if Abraham’s threshold had been met.

Also note, this “outcry” is the outcry heard in Gen 18:20
And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.

Abraham exercised his free will to pray to, entreat God; God allowed him to exercise his free will; but in the end, God’s was done, as He always knew it would be. Abraham’s was a prayer unanswered, or, a prayer answered not in the way Abraham wanted.

 

[Old_Scholar]

The problem I have with those who don’t respect the Scriptures is the insertion of an agenda into the text.
First, you’ve begun with the conclusion and insert that assumption into the text. Nowhere in the above text is God revealed as changing His mind.
Next, your assumption is God didn’t know how many “righteous” were in Sodom and Gomorrah. The fact the cities were destroyed, shows God knew the answer without His taking a census.
Please note, in Gen 19, the angels say:
12 Then the two men said to Lot, “Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons, and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place;
13** for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the LORD that the LORD has sent us to destroy it**.”
Nowhere does Scripture tell us God had to take a census of the cities to see if Abraham’s threshold had been met.

Also note, this “outcry” is the outcry heard in Gen 18:20
And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.

Abraham exercised his free will to pray to, entreat God; God allowed him to exercise his free will; but in the end, God’s was done, as He always knew it would be. Abraham’s was a prayer unanswered, or, a prayer answered not in the way Abraham wanted.

What else could you say. It is obvious from Scripture that Abraham bargained with God. That doesn’t take away the fact that God knew there were no good people there—actually that isn’t true either because He allowed Lot, his wife and daughters to escape. But the point is that Abraham bargained with God just as I said.

Why do you suppose Lot was able to escape the wrath of God? Remember, at first God said He would kill them all so Abraham must have had some influence with God.

And you are wrong about God changing His mind. At first He said He would destroy them all, then if Lot could find fifty, then forty-five, then forty and on down to ten. God did change His mind, that is obvious.

Look again at Gen 18:21 “I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.”

Chris can you read that and not see that God had to go down to see what was going on? He sent two angels—remember? And He didn’t spare Lot’s sons and sons-in-law. They perished with the evil ones.

 

[cfrancis]

What else could you say. It is obvious from Scripture that Abraham bargained with God. That doesn’t take away the fact that God knew there were no good people there—actually that isn’t true either because He allowed Lot, his wife and daughters to escape. But the point is that Abraham bargained with God just as I said.

It is more correct to say that Abraham interceded for Sodom, prayed for them, pleaded for them, but we can use “bargain” you think that helps your position.
Let’s look again at Gen 18 :
20 And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.
21 “I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

• God Himself says nothing about a proviso that would spare the cities; God Himself sets no “trigger,” no “min number of righteous people” that would spare the cities.
• God already knows what He will do, as witnessed by v17:
  17 The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,

Abraham initiates the “bargaining” to spare the cities; had God stated somewhere previous to v23 that He was going to destroy the cities because He couldn’t find 60 righteous people, you might have a point about God changing His mind.

Instead, Abraham prays to, er, “bargains” with God; and this “bargaining” does not reveal that God didn’t know how many righteous were in the cities, nor does it show God changed His mind.

In fact, I’ll go so far as to say God knew Abraham would stop “bargaining” at 10. If Abraham had continued to a lower number, as his free will could have allowed him to do, he may have put God in a position to change His mind about destroying the cities.

Why do you suppose Lot was able to escape the wrath of God? Remember, at first God said He would kill them all so Abraham must have had some influence with God.

• First, Scripture reveals only that God would destroy the cities and that there weren’t more than 10 righteous people within. Both of these statements are true, for the citeis were destroyed and Lot, his wife and daughters numbered less than 10.
• Yes, Abraham prayed for the cities, but he never once mentioned Lot by name. The Scriptures speak just as forcefully to the fact God knew He would spare Lot. Both Abraham’s prayers and Lot’s being spared are known by God before they occur.

And you are wrong about God changing His mind. At first He said He would destroy them all, then if Lot could find fifty, then forty-five, then forty and on down to ten. God did change His mind, that is obvious.

Please, provide the Scripture that tells us God said He would destroy everyone in the cities, before Abraham interceded. We know the cities would be destroyed, but He makes no mention as to how many, if any would be spared, which means He did not reveal any set number to Abraham; from the account, we know the number to be less than 10.

• It is your contention that less than 10 wasn’t known by God until after Abraham’s intercession. Such a contention is not supported by Scripture. Scripture speaks to the omniscience of God:
  Ps 33:11
  The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation.
  Ps 139
  3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
  4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, **O LORD, You know it all. **5 You have enclosed me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me…
  16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
  Is 46
  9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.
  10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand,
  and I will do all that I please.
  1 Jn 3:20
  in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things

Chris can you read that and not see that God had to go down to see what was going on? He sent two angels—remember? And He didn’t spare Lot’s sons and sons-in-law. They perished with the evil ones.

This is the most distressing part of your reply. You appear to be saying God is limited, that unless He sent the angels, He wouldn’t know what was going on.

• Interestingly, the angels do no counting or census taking; they go to Lot’s house and stay there; then they make sure Lot gets out, then destroy the city. There announcement that they’d destroy the city is made in v13:
  for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the LORD that the LORD has sent us to destroy it."
• Further, following your reasoning, God really is limited, as seen in similar situations:
  Gen 3
  9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”
  Gen 4
  6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "**Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? **
  9 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?”
  Is it really your contention that God did not know the answers to these questions?

 

[cfrancis]

Does anyone know of some good ECF writings re: God’s omniscience?

 

[Old_Scholar]

It is more correct to say that Abraham interceded for Sodom, prayed for them, pleaded for them, but we can use “bargain” you think that helps your position.

God Himself says nothing about a proviso that would spare the cities; God Himself sets no “trigger,” no “min number of righteous people” that would spare the cities.

That isn’t true. God first said He would spare the cities if there could be found fifty righteous people, then He changed it to 45, then to 40, 30 and finally ten. How can you say He did not give “a minimum number of people”???

Abraham initiates the “bargaining” to spare the cities; had God stated somewhere previous to v23 that He was going to destroy the cities because He couldn’t find 60 righteous people, you might have a point about God changing His mind.

God had already indicated He was going to destroy the cities.

Instead, Abraham prays to, er, “bargains” with God; and this “bargaining” does not reveal that God didn’t know how many righteous were in the cities, nor does it show God changed His mind.

In fact it shows God changed His mind several times. Read it again.

• 1. That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? 26) And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. 27) And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes: 28) Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. 29) And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty’s sake. 30) And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there.** And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there**. 31) And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty’s sake. 32) And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake. 33) And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.*

In fact, I’ll go so far as to say God knew Abraham would stop “bargaining” at 10. If Abraham had continued to a lower number, as his free will could have allowed him to do, he may have put God in a position to change His mind about destroying the cities.- First, Scripture reveals only that God would destroy the cities and that there weren’t more than 10 righteous people within. Both of these statements are true, for the citeis were destroyed and Lot, his wife and daughters numbered less than 10.

• Yes, Abraham prayed for the cities, but he never once mentioned Lot by name. The Scriptures speak just as forcefully to the fact God knew He would spare Lot. Both Abraham’s prayers and Lot’s being spared are known by God before they occur. Please, provide the Scripture that tells us God said He would destroy everyone in the cities, before Abraham interceded. We know the cities would be destroyed, but He makes no mention as to how many, if any would be spared, which means He did not reveal any set number to Abraham; from the account, we know the number to be less than 10.
• It is your contention that less than 10 wasn’t known by God until after Abraham’s intercession. Such a contention is not supported by Scripture. Scripture speaks to the omniscience of God:
  Ps 33:11

Chris, as usual you have run out of answers and are trying to “shift” the argument into whether or not God was going to destroy all the people. I have continually said that God intended to destroy the cities.

Scripture tells us emphatically that God “bargained” with Abraham whether to spare the cities if enough righteous people could be found there. This doesn’t need any interpretation, it is very clear.

If God knows “everything” in advance, then tell us why He had to “see” the wickedness in the earth and says He was sorry that He had made man on the earth—it grieved Him at His heart. It was because of that He wanted to destroy the earth. It would be very naive to believe that He made the earth only to have to destroy it.

Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7) And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

If God’s mind was made up about everything—why would we need Jesus to intercede for us?

 

[blackst]

God already knew what Cain would do; His knowledge does not eliminate Cain’s responsibility.
God knew, and Cain had free will: God knew how Cain would exercise his free will.

God already knew what Cain would do; His knowledge does not eliminate Cain’s responsibility.
God knew, and Cain had free will: God knew how Cain would exercise his free will.

If this is true then we have no free will because God has already planned who will be saved, who will understand truth, there’s no need to witness or do anything, we have no responsibility
If God knew every thing beforehand why pray, if God answers prayer then the outcome os not set in stone but we can change the future, if God knows everything and doesn’t act then he’s not omnipotent.

May the truth be spoken.
God’s Grace and Peace.
Rodney

 

[davidv]

{snip}

If God’s mind was made up about everything—why would we need Jesus to intercede for us?

Because our minds are not “made up about everything”.

 

[cfrancis]

That isn’t true. God first said He would spare the cities if there could be found fifty righteous people, then He changed it to 45, then to 40, 30 and finally ten. How can you say He did not give “a minimum number of people”???

Because He doesn’t give that number. Your reading of the passage assume the all-knowing God does not already know these things:

• the cities would be destroyed
• the only ones to escape would be Lot, his 2 daughters, his wife
• Abraham would stop at the limit of 10 righteous people
  Gen 18 :
  17 The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,
  What is God going to do? Destroy the cities.
  What does God do? Destroy the cities.
  Does He give us any disclaimer to His intent, such as, “I’ll destroy the cities if I can’t find X number of righteous people?” No, He does not.
  He does say in Gen 18:
  20 And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.
  21 “I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
  If you believe these verses to mean God is limited in His knowledge, then God is limited. However, as I stated in my previous post, you must then believe God didn’t know the answer to these questions:
  Gen 3
  9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”
  Gen 4
  6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
  9 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?”
  Further, your belief would contradict Scripture:
  **Ps 33:11 **
  The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation.
  Ps 139
  3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
  4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
  5 You have enclosed me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me…
  16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
  Is 46
  9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.
  10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand,
  and I will do all that I please.
  1 Jn 3:20
  in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things

In fact it shows God changed His mind several times. Read it again.

Your argument is that God could be talked out of doing His will. Again, this is not a Scriptural belief, but your own.
In the passage you cite, the exchange b/n God and Abraham, nowhere is God’s will denied. You are reading into the passage that God had no idea how many righteous were in the city, and that He may not destroy the cities.
Yet we know from **Gen 19 **that the angels sent into the city never took a census, didn’t travel throughout the city seeking at least 10 righteous people:
1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.
2 And he said, “Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant’s house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.” They said however, “No, but we shall spend the night in the square.”
3 Yet he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he prepared a feast for them, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
The angels went to Lot’s house - that’s it.

For yor argument to be consistent - God didn’t know how many righteous were in the city and He might not destroy the city - the angels needed to scour the city searching for at least 10 righteous people.

So, the angels go straight to Lot’s house. And what do they tell Lot? Do they say, “OK, we need to search the city for righteous people?”
No.
Gen 19
12 Then the two men said to Lot, “Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons, and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place;
13 **for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the LORD that the LORD has sent us to destroy it.” **
How can they be ready to destroy it if God hasn’t, based on your position, fulfilled the “bargain” with Abraham? You lead us to believe God did not honor His word with Abraham.

 

[cfrancis]

Chris, as usual you have run out of answers and are trying to “shift” the argument into whether or not God was going to destroy all the people. I have continually said that God intended to destroy the cities.

Scripture tells us emphatically that God “bargained” with Abraham whether to spare the cities if enough righteous people could be found there. This doesn’t need any interpretation, it is very clear.

You have provided two mutually exclusive statements:

**I have continually said that God intended to destroy the cities. **

and

Scripture tells us emphatically that God “bargained” with Abraham whether to spare the cities if enough righteous people could be found there.

How can God intend to destroy the cities, yet bargain to not destroy the cities? If He did, as you contend, make a bargain with Abraham, why did He not uphold His end of the bargain? Your position not only places limits on God, but reveals God does not always honor His word.

If God knows “everything” in advance, then tell us why He had to “see” the wickedness in the earth and says He was sorry that He had made man on the earth—it grieved Him at His heart. It was because of that He wanted to destroy the earth. It would be very naive to believe that He made the earth only to have to destroy it.

**If God’s mind was made up about everything—why would we need Jesus to intercede for us?**Your position appears to be based on whether or not I can know the mind of God. The simple answer to your questions: because it is His plan, and has been His plan since before the world was created.

Really, you need to contend with the Scriptural evidence revealing God’s omniscience and His divine plan from the beginning of time:
**Ps 33:11 **
The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation.
Ps 139
3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
5 You have enclosed me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me…
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
Is 46
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
1 Jn 3:20
in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things
Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
1 Peter 1:20
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

 

[JRKH]

Actually I get kind of a kick out of the Title - “DID” God Know Everything in advance. Wouldn’t He still Know? As in the present tense?

Suppose, for the sake of discussion, one were to concede that God can and does “Change His Mind” to use our language. In other words changes the course of events he had previously planned. Since He is God, He can “Know Everything in advance” by knowing the outcome of every “If-Then” Statement in the Universe and in Time as we know it. So whatever course is taken is still previously known to God.

More importantly:
How does that effect us and our Salvation?
What relevence does it have to our every day walk in faith?
Do we know everything? - No
Can we Know Everything? - No
Can we even Know we are saved? - No
Can we walk in Faith and do God’s will in confidence of His Mercy and Goodness and Desire that we come to Him? - Yes.
Can we be assured that if we walk in His ways and Abide in Him that He will not forsake us? - Yes

It is our calling as Christians to Walk in Christ - Loving God and neighbor. To Grow in Holiness. It is not our business to try to figure out the mind of God. Such conversations are useful only for academic mental excersize.
But the time would be more usefully spent in talking about how we can better Serve God than in “trying to empty an ocean into a hole in the sand”.

Peace
James

 

[cfrancis]

Well said James

I believe Cal overlooked the posts at the beginning of this thread where the idea that God is outside of time is presented. I agree with you that it is difficult for God to not know all, as He lives in a constant “now.”

And I agree that none of us knows as He knows, which is why our lives are our response to Him.

 

[Old_Scholar]

To believe that man doesn’t have “freewill” is too much Calvinistic to me. Freewill is the motivator of all our faith.

If you believe God already “mapped out” our lives then freewill ceases to be important at all. To go further means that we are “chosen” as Christ told us in Matthew 22:14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.” Believing that tells us that some are born to be saved and some are born to a life of sin and therefore will be damned.

There is a great deal in the Bible about “freewill.” We have the choice of whether we will accept Christ as our personal savior and try to live a holy life or whether to live a life of sin. Does everyone believe that Cain didn’t have *the choice *of whether to kill his brother or not? Didn’t he have freewill also?

Why do you suppose we were given the Ten Commandments? Can we not disobey them or keep them? Aren’t they the rules of our life and in order to have faith in God we should live and keep them?

If God hadn’t intended for us to have choices and make them ourselves, then He should have just made a bunch of robots because that’s what we would all be. No matter what we did, it would still come out as God had “pre-ordained” it. I find this a little hard to believe. Freewill was given to us and we have the option of what to do about it. That is the only way God would have done it. Else, why give it at all?

It is just as ridiculous to believe that God has never changed His mind. I have already given the story of Noah when God ‘obviously’ changed His mind. He said that He would wipe out mankind and all that He had created **because he was “grieved that He had made them.” ** One would certainly have to be a little naive in order to believe that was all “pre-ordained.”

I remember what God said to Moses about the Golden Calf. He was so unhappy that He told Moses to “leave Him alone” so that His anger could ‘burn’ against them and that He may destroy them. He said that then He would make Moses and his people into a great nation. God did not destroy them because Moses pleaded for them. Exodus 32:14 “And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.”

Even after that God almost changed His mind again. He told them “For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.” Exodus 33:5.

Isn’t God saying here that He may not be able to control His anger because of the attitude of the Israelites? Of course He is. We would not be able to make it in this life without freewill and God gave it to us for a purpose.

There are other places in Scripture of course, when God changed His mind. One other is with Saul, King over Israel. Isaiah 15:35 tells us God was sorry He had made Saul king.

The story of Jonah is another time God changed His mind. God told Jonah to tell the Ninevites that they had forty days before they would be destroyed. But the people relented and did as God had commanded and God changed His mind and didn’t destroy them.

It is freewill that allows us to go against God’s wishes and makes God change His mind. It may take several reminders but God will keep trying until we make the decision.

It is God’s “character” that never changes. He “does” change in His dealings with people. There are too many cases in Scripture that tell us that. **He is still the same today as He was before and always will be but if we change our ways, His dealings with us will change. ** As we go from ungodliness to godliness God will change in the way He deals with us. Kinda reminds me of riding into the wind in an airplane. Going against the wind is very difficult and when you change and go with the wind, it is remarkable how much difference it make in your speed…the wind hasn’t changed but we have changed in how we deal with it.

 

[blackst]

You have provided two mutually exclusive statements:
and How can God intend to destroy the cities, yet bargain to not destroy the cities? If He did, as you contend, make a bargain with Abraham, why did He not uphold His end of the bargain? Your position not only places limits on God, but reveals God does not always honor His word.Your position appears to be based on whether or not I can know the mind of God. The simple answer to your questions: because it is His plan, and has been His plan since before the world was created.

Really, you need to contend with the Scriptural evidence revealing God’s omniscience and His divine plan from the beginning of time:
**Ps 33:11 **
The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation.
Ps 139
3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
5 You have enclosed me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me…
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
Is 46
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.
10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
1 Jn 3:20
in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things
Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
1 Peter 1:20
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Lot was spared, and then has relations with his daughters so why didn’t God destory lot too since he was not righteous either?

 

[mark_a]

Some believe that everything was pre-destined. That God created the earth and all that was in it but yet knew that man would sin and He would have to destroy man, etc.

Did God ever change His mind? Was everything pre-destined?

Double predestination is the most cruel man-made tradition ever developed.

 

[mark_a]

Lot was spared, and then has relations with his daughters so why didn’t God destory lot too since he was not righteous either?

and the daughters?

 

[JRKH]

To believe that man doesn’t have “freewill” is too much Calvinistic to me. Freewill is the motivator of all our faith.

If you believe God already “mapped out” our lives then freewill ceases to be important at all. To go further means that we are “chosen” as Christ told us in Matthew 22:14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.” Believing that tells us that some are born to be saved and some are born to a life of sin and therefore will be damned.

There is a great deal in the Bible about “freewill.” We have the choice of whether we will accept Christ as our personal savior and try to live a holy life or whether to live a life of sin. Does everyone believe that Cain didn’t have *the choice *of whether to kill his brother or not? Didn’t he have freewill also?

Why do you suppose we were given the Ten Commandments? Can we not disobey them or keep them? Aren’t they the rules of our life and in order to have faith in God we should live and keep them?

If God hadn’t intended for us to have choices and make them ourselves, then He should have just made a bunch of robots because that’s what we would all be. No matter what we did, it would still come out as God had “pre-ordained” it. I find this a little hard to believe. Freewill was given to us and we have the option of what to do about it. That is the only way God would have done it. Else, why give it at all?

It is just as ridiculous to believe that God has never changed His mind. I have already given the story of Noah when God ‘obviously’ changed His mind. He said that He would wipe out mankind and all that He had created **because he was “grieved that He had made them.” ** One would certainly have to be a little naive in order to believe that was all “pre-ordained.”

I remember what God said to Moses about the Golden Calf. He was so unhappy that He told Moses to “leave Him alone” so that His anger could ‘burn’ against them and that He may destroy them. He said that then He would make Moses and his people into a great nation. God did not destroy them because Moses pleaded for them. Exodus 32:14 “And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.”

Even after that God almost changed His mind again. He told them “For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.” Exodus 33:5.

Isn’t God saying here that He may not be able to control His anger because of the attitude of the Israelites? Of course He is. We would not be able to make it in this life without freewill and God gave it to us for a purpose.

There are other places in Scripture of course, when God changed His mind. One other is with Saul, King over Israel. Isaiah 15:35 tells us God was sorry He had made Saul king.

The story of Jonah is another time God changed His mind. God told Jonah to tell the Ninevites that they had forty days before they would be destroyed. But the people relented and did as God had commanded and God changed His mind and didn’t destroy them.

It is freewill that allows us to go against God’s wishes and makes God change His mind. It may take several reminders but God will keep trying until we make the decision.

It is God’s “character” that never changes. He “does” change in His dealings with people. There are too many cases in Scripture that tell us that. **He is still the same today as He was before and always will be but if we change our ways, His dealings with us will change. ** As we go from ungodliness to godliness God will change in the way He deals with us. Kinda reminds me of riding into the wind in an airplane. Going against the wind is very difficult and when you change and go with the wind, it is remarkable how much difference it make in your speed…the wind hasn’t changed but we have changed in how we deal with it.

That is quite a bit there Old Scholar -
Can you condense it a bit?
Just what has been shown here that helps us to improve our walk with God?
How does knowing that God can “Change His mind” effect how I walk with and Him and try to do His will?

Peace
James