Did God Know Everything in Advance?

[Old_Scholar]

I see you still will not deal with the Scriptures I present that clearly - CLEARLY - state God knows all, and has His plan from the beginning to the end of our time. I can’t understand why you do not address those Scriptures.

**Originally Posted by Old Scholar **
But look at what you just quoted from my post. You completely overlook the fact that Scripture says AND GOD SAW THAT THE WICKEDNESS.…There is no indication that He already knew it! He did “investigate it” as you stated.

How many times do I have to list it? Are you simply NOT reading it? Look again, it says plainly that God SAW that the wickedness was great and He intended to destroy the earth. He also said it was evil CONTINUALLY which means He had been watching the wickedness. I don’t understand how this seems to be a problem for you to understand.

Please provide the Scripture that tells us these two “facts” you propose:

1. God “investigated” whether or not the world was wicked before the flood
2. God investigated Sodom and Gomorrah looking for at least 10 righteous people
   It says, clearly, that God knew when enough was enough, when the world would be evil enough for Him to bring the flood. Nothing there speaks about His not knowing or His plan being disrupted.
   Again, please present the Scripture that shows us God doing the “investigating.” He need not investigate, as He already knows; that’s why the angels don’t have to scour the cities and they just go to Lot’s house. You can’t escape and accept that fact.Ex 32
   35 Then the LORD smote the people, because of what they did with the calf which Aaron had made.
   And God did make of them a great nation.
   Again, Scripture reveals God’s plan, as He ordained it from the beginning of time.

**Notwithstanding the fact that God had said He would CONSUME them, instead He changed His mind and only smote them.

Then look at Sodom and Gomorrow. God said He would GO DOWN and SEE** whether they were doing as bad as He thought. Do you still believe that is not INVESTIGATING the situation???

 

[NotWorthy]

Here’s one for you:

Did God predestine all things or does He simply know what will happen because of His foreknowledge?

And bear in mind, these are two different things. I think some on this thread thing foreknowledge = pre-destined.

Not the case.

 

[Duong_Nguyen]

I’ll try to cover as much content running through this thread. I’m using a more philosophical approach.

1. From the idea of God, He is omnipotent, being the Creator. He has power over all things. Following that, He must be omniscient for that to be true. One cannot exercise power over something one does not know about. So God’s omnipotence translates into omniscience. This is not a transitive reasoning, as knowing about something does not mean power over it. Only power over something means knowledge of it.

If anyone “reads” lines from the Bible that seem inconsistent with this theory, then that person must not believe in God’s omnipotence.

1. Omniscience does not equate into no free will. Knowing all things does not mean He would prevent people from acting on their own. Given that God’s will is the standard of perfection and that sin (αμαρτία) is to miss the mark, being imperfect, then there is free will as there is sin.

I’m not going to quote, simply point out the example of Judas Iscariot’s betrayal of Jesus despite His knowing it. Jesus did not prevent him, allowing him to commit his deed. Judas had free will because he repented after the act, meaning that he could have chosen not to before the act. Bottom line: we are not puppets.

1. Predestination in the Church means God knows who will choose to obey His will and those who do not. This term is simply another line of omniscience. Like before knowing does not mean intervening.
2. The verses in the Old Testament regarding God changing His mind or hardening peoples’ hearts should be left to someone more seasoned in that area than myself to answer.
   I will point out that many things in the Bible may not mean as it does now. One may need context to understand those circumstances when the biblical authors phrase such stories in such a way. I will defer this question. Hopefully someone answers it.

Thank you for reading

 

[cfrancis]

How many times do I have to list it? Are you simply NOT reading it? Look again, it says plainly that God SAW that the wickedness was great and He intended to destroy the earth. He also said it was evil CONTINUALLY which means He had been watching the wickedness. I don’t understand how this seems to be a problem for you to understand.

Then look at Sodom and Gomorrow. God said He would GO DOWN and SEE whether they were doing as bad as He thought. Do you still believe that is not INVESTIGATING the situation???

I believe you are equating “God seeing the wickedness” with “God did not know the wickedness was there.”

I don’t understand how you can do this, but you are doing this.

In no way does “God seeing the wickedness” mean He did not know the wickedness was there. For the sake of this example, grant that God is omniscient: He knows the people will be wicked and that wickedness will go on.

Can He not then see that wickedness?

As to your claim re: Gen 18 and God “going down to see,” at what point did God do the investigating?

In v17, God says:
17 The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,
It appears He knows He will destroy the cities. What do you think God was “about to do”?

v21 is the one you reference:
21 “I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
It appears God is saying He will need to investigate (that’s the word I’m using; there may be a better word for our discussion).

Then v22 begins His exchange with Abraham:
22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD.

So, somewhere between Gen 18:22 and Gen 19:24, in order for God to not be omniscient, He had to go investigate the city for at least 10 righteous people. Do you agree with this?

At what point did He do this investigation?

Finally, as I have addressed the Scriptures you have provided me, though not in agreement, I ask you to return the courtesy and address these Scriptures I contend reveal that God does know all:
Ps 33:11
The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation.
Ps 139
3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
5 You have enclosed me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me…
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
Is 46
9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.
10** I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please**.
1 Jn 3:20
in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things

 

[cfrancis]

Thanks for the response. I was afraid maybe my typing smelled bad or something

Anyway, I was trying to address the original question of the thread which, if i recall correctly, was does God know everything and does God Change his mind.

My post demonstrates it is possible to do both. It is an application of my earlier comment on God’s infinite Knowledge of the “If-Then” principle. The teacher, had two IF-THEN’s available.
IF the Children shape up THEN they get rewarded.
IF the Children don’t shape up Then they get punished.
The teacher KNOWS the outcome of either one. Therefore She KNOWS “ALL” and can still “change her mind” (from the perspective of the children of course)
The nature or degree of the punishment is not really relevent to the argument of God knows All and God “Changes His Mind”

Multiply this little exersize by God’s infinite knowledge and you have the solution to your dilema. Yes God Knows Everything and YEs God can and does “Change His Mind”, in your words.

Make Sense?

Peace
James

James, going back to the idea that God exists outside of time, and using your analogy, can we then say the teacher, while knowing the outcome of both situations, also knows which IF-THEN will occur?

 

[Duong_Nguyen]

I’ll try to cover as much content running through this thread. I’m using a more philosophical approach.

1. From the idea of God, He is omnipotent, being the Creator. He has power over all things. Following that, He must be omniscient for that to be true. One cannot exercise power over something one does not know about. So God’s omnipotence translates into omniscience. This is not a transitive reasoning, as knowing about something does not mean power over it. Only power over something means knowledge of it.

If anyone “reads” lines from the Bible that seem inconsistent with this theory, then that person must not believe in God’s omnipotence.

1. Omniscience does not equate into no free will. Knowing all things does not mean He would prevent people from acting on their own. Given that God’s will is the standard of perfection and that sin (αμαρτία) is to miss the mark, being imperfect, then there is free will as there is sin.

I’m not going to quote, simply point out the example of Judas Iscariot’s betrayal of Jesus despite His knowing it. Jesus did not prevent him, allowing him to commit his deed. Judas had free will because he repented after the act, meaning that he could have chosen not to before the act. Bottom line: we are not puppets.

1. Predestination in the Church means God knows who will choose to obey His will and those who do not. This term is simply another line of omniscience. Like before knowing does not mean intervening.
2. The verses in the Old Testament regarding God changing His mind or hardening peoples’ hearts should be left to someone more seasoned in that area than myself to answer.
   I will point out that many things in the Bible may not mean as it does now. One may need context to understand those circumstances when the biblical authors phrase such stories in such a way. I will defer this question. Hopefully someone answers it.

Thank you for reading

I just want to expand upon point 2. I apologize for any crude portrayals of God when I attempt to conceptualize Him inside constraints such as time.

The contention in this thread seems to be about omniscience and determinism. The former is knowledge of all and the latter is manipulation of an object.

The argument of determinism depends on God. God knows all, and He is all-powerful. I will use an analogy because I cannot explain God’s nature as well as a finite object or being. The most obvious example is weather forecasting. If the weatherman predicts a storm and it happens, did he make it happen? Of course not. However the issue then falls on His omnipotence and infallibility. The weatherman may not have been able to effect anything to happen, but God can. God can effect what He “predicts” to happen. His “prediction” is then a fact of knowledge, following his infallibility. This would relieve everyone of any moral responsibilities for his/her actions.

I’ll question why one would follow predestination. If one’s actions mean nothing and God chooses whom to bestow grace, then God is quite arbitrary. There is no merit to what the elected does. But not everyone can be elected. Predestination reduces human life to a puppet show. Why would God withhold grace from anyone if actions do not matter?

Now I’m going to prove that the above is wrong. God’s omnipotence implies that He can manipulate our wills. But the case is that he does not. Why not? The answer is really simple and does not need a long chain of logic. Due to His love of us, He permits us to sin in the same way as a parent watching over a prodigal child. He would let us choose to reject Him rather than force His will on us. He makes us free causes in His image, able to act freely. It is that simple.

The people arguing for the Calvinist view of predestination have already set their minds on it. I doubt they would change their thinking.

 

[blackst]

I just want to expand upon point 2. I apologize for any crude portrayals of God when I attempt to conceptualize Him inside constraints such as time.

The contention in this thread seems to be about omniscience and determinism. The former is knowledge of all and the latter is manipulation of an object.

The argument of determinism depends on God. God knows all, and He is all-powerful. I will use an analogy because I cannot explain God’s nature as well as a finite object or being. The most obvious example is weather forecasting. If the weatherman predicts a storm and it happens, did he make it happen? Of course not. However the issue then falls on His omnipotence and infallibility. The weatherman may not have been able to effect anything to happen, but God can. God can effect what He “predicts” to happen. His “prediction” is then a fact of knowledge, following his infallibility. This would relieve everyone of any moral responsibilities for his/her actions.

I’ll question why one would follow predestination. If one’s actions mean nothing and God chooses whom to bestow grace, then God is quite arbitrary. There is no merit to what the elected does. But not everyone can be elected. Predestination reduces human life to a puppet show. Why would God withhold grace from anyone if actions do not matter?

Now I’m going to prove that the above is wrong. God’s omnipotence implies that He can manipulate our wills. But the case is that he does not. Why not? The answer is really simple and does not need a long chain of logic. Due to His love of us, He permits us to sin in the same way as a parent watching over a prodigal child. He would let us choose to reject Him rather than force His will on us. He makes us free causes in His image, able to act freely. It is that simple.

The people arguing for the Calvinist view of predestination have already set their minds on it. I doubt they would change their thinking.

If God knew before hand what we were going to do before we did it, then we would be robots, predictable, but because the future is not already planned man can change his mind and we change can Gods mind too through prayer, look at the Apostle Paul, Saint Augustine and many other converts.

Many were waiting for the messiah to come and forgive there sin so they could begin anew. If God knew everything but didn’t act he wouldn’t be Onipotent. If he can do everything and knows everything but doesn’t act, he’s not loving. Mercy is what pleases God not sacrifice. Matthew 9:13

Many are called, few are chosen, why are not all chosen, why did Jesus Christ say I’ve only come to save the lost sheep of israel? And then call them lost Dogs, where is mercy and love apparent here. He said not to judge, but then judged the pharisee’s the Apostle’s, the Father. Father why have you forsaken me.

 

[Duong_Nguyen]

If God knew everything but didn’t act he wouldn’t be Onipotent. If he can do everything and knows everything but doesn’t act, he’s not loving.

This is then your interpretation of love. If you know a close friend would die from a certain action, you would probably try to stop them. Now what if he/she refuses to listen despite knowing the consequences? Do you hold him/her against his/her will? Will you treat him/her like a pet that you do not want to lose?

Now imagine that with God, who loves us infinitely more. Will He disregard your humanity and treat you like another pet?
If you think He does, then I cannot change your POV on free will before you understand the infinite depths of His love.

 

[blackst]

This is then your interpretation of love. If you know a close friend would die from a certain action, you would probably try to stop them. Now what if he/she refuses to listen despite knowing the consequences? Do you hold him/her against his/her will? Will you treat him/her like a pet that you do not want to lose?

Now imagine that with God, who loves us infinitely more. Will He disregard your humanity and treat you like another pet?
If you think He does, then I cannot change your POV on free will before you understand the infinite depths of His love.

If God knew that a peson was going to end the life of a child and did nothing, but could do something like send someone to counsel the lost, that not being a pet, but a loving Father, what FAther would not counsel there child on the pitfalls of life, warn them and provide them with knowledge so they could make an informed decision. If God is Love and then destory’s life how living is this, if God said to forgive 70*7 but then condemed someone to hell would that be loving, God said do not kil, then told joshua to kill every man woman and child, genocide, hoe loving is that, he gives us the addiction and can take it away, how loving is that?

 

[Duong_Nguyen]

If God knew that a peson was going to end the life of a child and did nothing, but could do something like send someone to counsel the lost, that not being a pet, but a loving Father, what FAther would not counsel there child on the pitfalls of life, warn them and provide them with knowledge so they could make an informed decision. If God is Love and then destory’s life how living is this, if God said to forgive 70*7 but then condemed someone to hell would that be loving, God said do not kil, then told joshua to kill every man woman and child, genocide, hoe loving is that, he gives us the addiction and can take it away, how loving is that?

You are not disagreeing to my argument that God would not impose His will on unwilling believers. As the Father He has sent the Prophets, Jesus, His only begotten Son and Church to do just that “counsel the lost, that not being a pet” However we as humans still choose to reject that counsel. We still pick to despoil our soil. What can God do without impinging on our free will? If He changes the consequences, then maybe we might not get physically harmed. But why would that matter? The choice to sin does the same harm to the soul as would the physical consequences.

That being accounted for, then you should accept this interpretation of free will and that you are not a robot and predestination does not translate into loss of will.

Now the bad things that happen in life that God seems to let happen/cause belong to a different issue. I cannot really answer it as no human would know the answer to it. The book of Job brings up a similar concern, regarding why bad things happen to good people.

Perhaps you did not really want to discuss the concept of free will in regards to God’s omniscience but simply want to voice your dissatifaction over something else. I apologize if I offend you.

 

[blackst]

You are not disagreeing to my argument that God would not impose His will on unwilling believers. As the Father He has sent the Prophets, Jesus, His only begotten Son and Church to do just that “counsel the lost, that not being a pet” However we as humans still choose to reject that counsel. We still pick to despoil our soil. What can God do without impinging on our free will? If He changes the consequences, then maybe we might not get physically harmed. But why would that matter? The choice to sin does the same harm to the soul as would the physical consequences.

That being accounted for, then you should accept this interpretation of free will and that you are not a robot and predestination does not translate into loss of will.

Now the bad things that happen in life that God seems to let happen/cause belong to a different issue. I cannot really answer it as no human would know the answer to it. The book of Job brings up a similar concern, regarding why bad things happen to good people.

Perhaps you did not really want to discuss the concept of free will in regards to God’s omniscience but simply want to voice your dissatifaction over something else. I apologize if I offend you.

No, there was no offense, thank you for you time, I believe that God gives us free will to choose, I only think that God does not know what we chose, as we don’t know either until we take that action we could change at the last minute.

Jesus said many are called few are chosen, some may not have free will, they are slaves to their flesh.

Peace Grace Mercy

 

[Duong_Nguyen]

I believe that God gives us free will to choose, I only think that God does not know what we chose, as we don’t know either until we take that action we could change at the last minute.

I’m sorry if I have posted so much on this thread.

Knowing everything includes knowing all our future actions, despite us not knowing ourselves, as God knows us fully even before forming us.
But to doubt His omniscience also questions His omnipotence. The concept of God does not work, if He does not know everything and He does not have power of everything. He must know all to have power over all. I’m being stubborn here, because these are the qualities of God that I believe.

I think we went full circle back to predestination. Can you please explain to me how knowing the future means that the future is planned? I may be lacking some insight here and I hope you can show me the link.

 

[Duong_Nguyen]

I’m sorry if I have posted so much on this thread.

Knowing everything includes knowing all our future actions, despite us not knowing ourselves, as God knows us fully even before forming us.
But to doubt His omniscience also questions His omnipotence. The concept of God does not work, if He does not know everything and He does not have power of everything. He must know all to have power over all. I’m being stubborn here, because these are the qualities of God that I believe.

I think we went full circle back to predestination. Can you please explain to me how knowing the future means that the future is planned? I may be lacking some insight here and I hope you can show me the link.

I’m sorry if I have posted so much on this thread.

So we agree that we have free will. God respects our free will and does not intervene in our decisions. That would mean no matter what we do He will not stop us, even if He knows what we will do. (Of course He has already counseled us to do good). Hypothetically, even if God knows my future actions it would not affect my decisions because He will let me be. Therefore free will and omniscience do not conflict.

Now we examine if God has omniscience or not. Instead of using Bible verses that point to God knowing us more fully than even ourselves before forming us, I will prove His omniscience through definition. God, being the Creator, must be all-powerful. For Him to be omnipotent He must be able to exercise His will over all things. Therefore He must know all, or He would not have power over certain things. Alternatively, if He is all-powerful He would be in the position to make everything known to Him with His power. Omniscience and omnipotence go hand in hand.

Accepting either one of those proofs, God knows all our actions, past, present, and future even if we may not know them ourselves. Assuming we are free to choose, no matter how many times we change our minds, God already knows what we will do.

I understand that there are many verses in the Bible that may seem to contradict this line of reasoning, but this is the definition of God, that the Church believes in. I do not know the context of those verses, due to my lack of knowledge of Latin,Greek, and Hebrew and their respective language usages. I do believe that the English language has failed to capture many subtler meanings of the Scripture and that time has obscured certain context needed for proper Bible interpretation. It does take priests many years to study this holy book.

 

[NotWorthy]

No, there was no offense, thank you for you time, I believe that God gives us free will to choose, I only think that God does not know what we chose, as we don’t know either until we take that action we could change at the last minute.

Jesus said many are called few are chosen, some may not have free will, they are slaves to their flesh.

Peace Grace Mercy

Then how could God exist?

God existed before time, (In the Beginning was the Word…). Since God created time, do you think He is constrained by Time? No, He exists outside of it, and gives you the free choice to be with Him, or not.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I beleive he knew everything in advance or he wouldn’t have a plan for mans salvation also in Psalms he said I knew you when you were in your mothers womb,He gave the Apostal John Revelations ahead of time to show us what was to happen to mankind he even knew he would return to take home his elect.It’s not by chance,for it is writen,I AM that I AM John:18:4 Psalms44:21 Nah:1:7 Psalms:139:2 Besides if God made everything He sure must know everything:thumbsup: Nancy