Did God order Israelites to kill babies?

[Neithan]

1 Samuel 15: 2-3 (NAB):

2
This is what the LORD of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt.
3 1 Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’"

In this passage from Scripture, it appears that God has told Samuel to order the Israelites to slaughter Amalekite children and infants! But the gloss on verse 3 from the New American Bible reads:
“The interpretation of God’s will here attributed to Samuel is in keeping with the abhorrent practices of blood revenge prevalent among pastoral, seminomadic peoples such as the Hebrews had recently been. The slaughter of the innocent has never been in conformity with the will of God.”

However, the Dhouay-Rheims Bible text is clarified differently:
“The great Master of life and death (who cuts off one half of all mankind whilst they are children) has been pleased sometimes to ordain that children should be put to the sword, in detestation of the crimes of their parents, and that they might not live to follow the same wicked ways. But without such ordinance of God it is not allowable, in any wars, how just soever, to kill children.”

So which is it? Did God order the Israelites to murder the innocent children, or is this always contrary to the Will of God?
If the former, then we seem to have a Euthyphro Dilemma, as murdering innocents is an evil act, made good by the command of God.
If the latter, then does this mean that Samuel misinterpreted and misinformed the Israelites of the Will of God? How could that happen considering He was a prophet?

 

[mkarzon]

I don’t know of any official teaching about this, but I have read commentaries that state the Jews misunderstood what God was telling them to do.

 

[Closer]

We have to remember that all life is Gods, and He can do with it what He wills. We have to remember that God is always just, and always right even if we don’t understnd it. Things like this were necessary prior to Christ and the fulfillmant of the law.

Augustine also says that no one is innocent. Sin is in the blood and we are born with it.

Just because God wanted a certain people eliminated doesn’t mean he placed them all in Hell either.

 

[NotWorthy]

Just because God wanted a certain people eliminated doesn’t mean he placed them all in Hell either.

I think you’re hitting something, there. I’ve always felt that if God killed an innocent being in order for something greater to happen, then I’d imagine God, the God of Justice, to have some reward for that being’s participation in his plan.

We just fail to see that reward while we’re here in this world.

 

[Bennie_P]

So which is it? Did God order the Israelites to murder the innocent children, or is this always contrary to the Will of God?
If the former, then we seem to have a Euthyphro Dilemma, as murdering innocents is an evil act, made good by the command of God.
If the latter, then does this mean that Samuel misinterpreted and misinformed the Israelites of the Will of God? How could that happen considering He was a prophet?

Are you trying to look at this verse through your 21st century understanding of justice and idea of God’s will or in context of the history of Israel?

The account was written between 750- 650 BC and should be looked in the light of the overall history of Israel and her enemies, as to how sin and turning away from God to embrace idolatry and immorality has it consequences. The role of the prophet and his message is telling Israel basically you follow God and embrace his law you are protected, you fall into idolatry God will allow your enemies to win over you. This period of history was a violent time in mankind’s history and the account was written before the fuller revelations of Jesus Christ was given to mankind. The individual acts such as killings of the innocent, which saved them from idolatry, is something expected of the time period, though unjustifable after mankind’s fuller understanding of God’s revelation that was yet to come through Jesus Chirst.

 

[Neithan]

We have to remember that all life is Gods, and He can do with it what He wills. We have to remember that God is always just, and always right even if we don’t understnd it. Things like this were necessary prior to Christ and the fulfillmant of the law.

But this doesn’t look like God took their lives through some natural means; Samuel is saying that it is His Will for the Israelites to slaughter innocents. That would be God commanding murder–how could He ever tell a person to do something that would in each and every normal case be heinously evil? Why not simply strike down the innocent children himself like He did in Egypt?
The issue is God commanding what would otherwise be evil, as the Dhouay-Rheims gloss clearly points out. The NAB even refuses to admit that this was the will of God!

Augustine also says that no one is innocent. Sin is in the blood and we are born with it.

According to the article in the Catholic Encyclopedia (1911), Augustine’s understanding was somewhat erroneous. Original Sin is not sin as in personal guilt, but rather a lack of God’s grace. Infants truly are innocent.

Just because God wanted a certain people eliminated doesn’t mean he placed them all in Hell either.

It’s not that God doesn’t have a right to end any life, whoever, and whenever He wills–but why He would command the Israelites to do so.

 

[Neithan]

Are you trying to look at this verse through your 21st century understanding of justice and idea of God’s will or in context of the history of Israel?

Do Justice and God’s Will ever change?

The account was written between 750- 650 BC and should be looked in the light of the overall history of Israel and her enemies, as to how sin and turning away from God to embrace idolatry and immorality has it consequences. The role of the prophet and his message is telling Israel basically you follow God and embrace his law you are protected, you fall into idolatry God will allow your enemies to win over you. This period of history was a violent time in mankind’s history and the account was written before the fuller revelations of Jesus Christ was given to mankind. The individual acts such as killings of the innocent, which saved them from idolatry, is something expected of the time period, though unjustifable after mankind’s fuller understanding of God’s revelation that was yet to come through Jesus Chirst.

How did it save them from idolatry? The Israelites could have slaughtered all the adults who would have subjected them to it. Why was it necessary to kill the infants as well?

I guess I don’t understand how something could be just in the Mosaic Law, but unjust in the Christian? Does the Moral Law change, or is it eternal? Especially where God’s positive command is involved. I mean okay He allowed Moses to permit Divorce–which was made illicit by Christ–but did He ever personally command it?

 

[Bennie_P]

Do Justice and God’s Will ever change?

No but the way we precieve it does, you are still looking at the situation through your 21st century perception and knowledge.

How did it save them from idolatry? The Israelites could have slaughtered all the adults who would have subjected them to it. Why was it necessary to kill the infants as well?

Looking at the context of the time children, would have been considered property as in slaves. If the children were left alive then the Israelites would have been committing the act of covetness. and if you notice Saul and his men later in the chapter didn’t follow the instuctions given by Samual and kept property he (Saul) thought shouldn’t be destroyed, yet they killed the children. The question we might better be asking, what would happen if Saul had given mercy to the innocent? but destroyed the other property? But we should really be looking at the total context of the story, Saul disobeyed the instructions given by Samuel, thus he sinned against God. If we focus on the children we will miss the point of story.

I guess I don’t understand how something could be just in the Mosaic Law, but unjust in the Christian? Does the Moral Law change, or is it eternal? Especially where God’s positive command is involved. I mean okay He allowed Moses to permit Divorce–which was made illicit by Christ–but did He ever personally command it?

It wasn’t just/moral for one tribe/people to kill off another. Moral law doesn’t change. But the point of this story is about obedience to God, not the morality of killing. The reality of tribal life was competion over land and resources, we have a clear picture of that from our knowledge of Native American Culture. You cannot take parts of scripture without putting it into context to the times and/or the overall redemptive process.

Did God ever want mankind to kill each other? Just go back and read to story of Cain and Able and I thing we find the answer to be no.
Thats my take on it -

 

[123rock]

The purpose of killing the children was so that they didn’t grow up to avenge their parents. I don’t know how that can escape anyone as the obvious consequence of killing a child’s parents in front of their eyes.

 

[Smber2c]

I think you’re hitting something, there. I’ve always felt that if God killed an innocent being in order for something greater to happen, then I’d imagine God, the God of Justice, to have some reward for that being’s participation in his plan.

We just fail to see that reward while we’re here in this world.

I would have to agree on this. When reading the accounts of Moses trying to free the Hebrews from Egypt there are several times the Pharoh seems about to let them go. He even orders it a time or two if I recall correctly. They scripture records that “God hardened the Pharoh’s heart”.

I can 2 two possible meaning there:

1st - God said, “No Pharoh, you may want to let them go but it isn’t time yet so I’m going to actually mess with your free will and make your heart hard so you’ll keep them here a little longer.”

2nd - The Pharoh sensed God, and then for some reason (probably in envy of a true God) became cold hearted of his own will from this feeling/experience.

If the first, the Pharoh can’t really be blamed, God turned his will to sterness. But I don’t think that God really takes people’s free will.

Thus, I think it was the 2nd answer. And there the Pharoh did choose. But if the first is possible and then if it is true…yeah he can’t bear the weights of that action then.

 

[PinoyCatholic]

“Or hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, that He might shew the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He hath prepared unto glory?”

• Romans 9:21-23 (also in Civilization IV).

 

[Neithan]

Looking at the context of the time children, would have been considered property as in slaves. If the children were left alive then the Israelites would have been committing the act of covetness. and if you notice Saul and his men later in the chapter didn’t follow the instuctions given by Samual and kept property he (Saul) thought shouldn’t be destroyed, yet they killed the children. The question we might better be asking, what would happen if Saul had given mercy to the innocent? but destroyed the other property? But we should really be looking at the total context of the story, Saul disobeyed the instructions given by Samuel, thus he sinned against God. If we focus on the children we will miss the point of story.

So are you saying it is *good *to slaughter the innocent children of a foreign ‘tribe,’ rather than keep them as slaves? Was this some form of mercy killing?

It wasn’t just/moral for one tribe/people to kill off another. Moral law doesn’t change. But the point of this story is about obedience to God, not the morality of killing. The reality of tribal life was competion over land and resources, we have a clear picture of that from our knowledge of Native American Culture. You cannot take parts of scripture without putting it into context to the times and/or the overall redemptive process.

Did God ever want mankind to kill each other? Just go back and read to story of Cain and Able and I thing we find the answer to be no.
Thats my take on it -

I’m confused. Clearly the author depicts Samuel–the prophet–commanding the people to kill in obedience to the Will of God. Could that possibly have been immoral?
Or did Samuel misinterpret God’s Will?

 

[littleone]

In this passage from Scripture, it appears that God has told Samuel to order the Israelites to slaughter Amalekite children and infants! But the gloss on verse 3 from the New American Bible reads:
“The interpretation of God’s will here attributed to Samuel is in keeping with the abhorrent practices of blood revenge prevalent among pastoral, seminomadic peoples such as the Hebrews had recently been. The slaughter of the innocent has never been in conformity with the will of God.”

However, the Dhouay-Rheims Bible text is clarified differently:
“The great Master of life and death (who cuts off one half of all mankind whilst they are children) has been pleased sometimes to ordain that children should be put to the sword, in detestation of the crimes of their parents, and that they might not live to follow the same wicked ways. But without such ordinance of God it is not allowable, in any wars, how just soever, to kill children.”

So which is it? Did God order the Israelites to murder the innocent children, or is this always contrary to the Will of God?
If the former, then we seem to have a Euthyphro Dilemma, as murdering innocents is an evil act, made good by the command of God.
If the latter, then does this mean that Samuel misinterpreted and misinformed the Israelites of the Will of God? How could that happen considering He was a prophet?

God relates in this matter to the people He told who ever ( Saul) to rid the earth of as the “seed”, seed is a term used often in the works of satan. Saul was told to rid or to kill every one of the enemy. the reason why is because the same spirit is in until the 4th generation. Saul was seen by God not to have done God’s will. that same seed sprung up the same spirit of satan into the people, leading them astray.

God bless
littleone

 

[zemi]

In this passage from Scripture, it appears that God has told Samuel to order the Israelites to slaughter Amalekite children and infants! But the gloss on verse 3 from the New American Bible reads:
“The interpretation of God’s will here attributed to Samuel is in keeping with the abhorrent practices of blood revenge prevalent among pastoral, seminomadic peoples such as the Hebrews had recently been. The slaughter of the innocent has never been in conformity with the will of God.”

However, the Dhouay-Rheims Bible text is clarified differently:
“The great Master of life and death (who cuts off one half of all mankind whilst they are children) has been pleased sometimes to ordain that children should be put to the sword, in detestation of the crimes of their parents, and that they might not live to follow the same wicked ways. But without such ordinance of God it is not allowable, in any wars, how just soever, to kill children.”

So which is it? Did God order the Israelites to murder the innocent children, or is this always contrary to the Will of God?
If the former, then we seem to have a Euthyphro Dilemma, as murdering innocents is an evil act, made good by the command of God.
If the latter, then does this mean that Samuel misinterpreted and misinformed the Israelites of the Will of God? How could that happen considering He was a prophet?

It seem perhaps as if God had double standard, isn’t it?

He wants people to do good, moral deeds, yet he seems to do the opposite.

Well… I was thinking about it some time ago. Also having on mind some OT accounts… But maybe we should examine it a bit before jumping to conclusions.

When you were a child, did your parent set you a bed time? Most probably yes. Ok, now - do also your parents have to keep the bed time?! Isn’t this a double standard they make? Setting a bed time for somebody and not keeping it themselves? No. Because they have as parents the authority to say what you should do and what not.

If someone has a T-shirt and I decide to tear it apart - would that be morally wrong? Yes, indeed! Now, if the owner of the T-shirt decides to tear it apart, would that be morally wrong? Obviously not, if he is the owner of T-shirt, he can do whatever he wants with it.

Well then, ok, it’s not a double standard, but isn’t God unjust
and evil to allow this? Well, if these questions crop up, go and read this Jimmy’s article:

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/02/hard_sayings_of.html

Just some thoughts here Jimmy’s article’s great

 

[Bennie_P]

So are you saying it is *good *to slaughter the innocent children of a foreign ‘tribe,’ rather than keep them as slaves? Was this some form of mercy killing?

I’m confused. Clearly the author depicts Samuel–the prophet–commanding the people to kill in obedience to the Will of God. Could that possibly have been immoral?
Or did Samuel misinterpret God’s Will?

You are confused becuase you are trying to pick small parts of the story and put them into 21st century reasoning, why you are concentrating to understand that one minute part of the scripture you miss the point of the story.

If you recall before Saul was made King, Samual told the Israelites that they didn’t need a King because they had God. And Samual warned they would be subject to the same rules/ways of other nations under the rulership of Kings. That would be include the way of war. They didn’t heed the warning. Obedience to God is the underlying theme here, the lesson being taught.

From your own footnote from NAB

Under the ban: in such wars of extermination, all things (men, cities, beasts, etc.) were to be blotted out; nothing could be reserved for private use. The interpretation of God’s will here attributed to Samuel is in keeping with the abhorrent practices of blood revenge prevalent among pastoral, seminomadic peoples such as the Hebrews had recently been. The slaughter of the innocent has never been in conformity with the will of God.

Keep it in context to the times, to the culture of the time.

 

[paarsurrey]

I don’t know of any official teaching about this, but I have read commentaries that state the Jews misunderstood what God was telling them to do.

Hi
I agree with you, GodAllahYHWH is All-Kind, he could never order of killing innocent children. This is either message misunderstood or the clergy chaging the message to suit their own evil designs.
This is my opinion, others could believe otherwise, no compulsion.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.
GodAllahYHWH is All-Knowing; one should invariably give Claim and Reason on all important issues from one’s Revealed Book; one shouldn’t try putting one’s own words into God’s mouth.

 

[jimmy85]

My bible comentary says that the author of the book was describing how bad was the misfortuens and how bad and awfull were wars. It was a “critic” to wars and the awfull things that used to happen on his time.
also we must understand how awfull where those pagan countrys, they burned their children alive in sacrifice to the gods, they were selfish and barbaric.
One must understand that their free will led them to do that and when we as human being are so awfuly wretched, God cant allow us to carry one like that . otherwise they will all go to hell because of the evil that was on those countrys.

That is one of the reason why the flood and awfull stuff happen. They happen Because of the sins of men and because they misused their free will in a way that they couldnt be good people never again.

Also one must take in account the extremly primitive mind that the israelites had, it is extremly difficult for us to understand but for those times they didnt know the value of the human life.

We must try to understand that the human concience evolves by stepts. Primitive men can not be moraly compared with us now.
and we must understand that God adapted himself to our sinful nature for those times in order to straighten us.

and another thing is that those first books of the bible shouldnt be read like an accurate and flawless “historical” novel. The pentateuch wasent written by Moses, It was written way after on the times of the kings and they were “oral traditions”.

The exudus and the conquer of Israel wasent flawless and perfect like the book of Judges says, but it was something that took “a lot” of time.

“The bible is the inspired word of God however it has some primitive thoughts and point of views of the people of those times”.

Botton line I think the author was criticizing the awfull misfortunes and the horrid stuffs that used to happen on those wars.

catholicismandbibletheology.blog.com/

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
Please don’t be embarrassed, it is here that the artful hands of the vested Clergy are exposed. GodAllahYHWH never could order killings of the innocent babies.This iswhat I believe, others could differ with me with rational and reasonable arguments.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.
GodAllahYHWH is All-Knowing; one should invariably give Claim and Reason on all important issues from one’s Revealed Book; one shouldn’t try putting one’s own words into God’s mouth.

 

[jimmy85]

God does not bring misfortunes; we bring it with our own sins.

Keeping that in mind you must realize that those people were living in a way that no one would be able to attain a mature age because of the violence there. Normally every parent killed and sacrificed their children for their useless gods, it was like hell itself.
Therefore the overwhelming sins were the ones that made this misfortune to occur.
You must understand that sins are the ones that make all this bad stuffs and not God.

One must also make a depth observations about this
Why the first temple was destroyed? Only because Salomon married foreign women and they brought up their “influences” and their foreign gods.
In a few time the entire Israel that was consecrated with a sacred covenant as the bride of the Lord, became almost entirely pagan.

I think that mankind was determined to a bad end if God hasn’t interceded for us all on those times with his covenants saving us.
We should also consider that if that conquers of Israel hasn’t happened, now we would be all atheists and we wouldn’t have this religion that we have nowadays.

When Abraham made his promise with God he assured the Israelite that they will have a God and they will be their people.They pacted that, and putted aside their free will, in order to be consecrated to God

I think God used to correct those primitive people on ancient times with fear and with his laws in order that we can nowadays believe in him.
the world belongs for now to the devil because of our original sin and our free will and God couldn’t made us all good at onces because he respect our free will however
he adapted himself to the conscience of primitive people in order to sow the religions that we have now.

Remember as well that every religion has done wrong on the past but God also understands the primitive mind and the primitive conscience and he reward the innocent and the victims because of their misfortunes, there is no doubt about it.

Say a Lion is gonna kill you. Is the Lion gonna go to hell ? No becuase it has no conscience.
The Israelites had a primitive conscience as well
It will all change when the conscience of people will mature and will make them realize that the human life has value.
You can understand it better if you realize that God adapts himself in every kind of conscience even primitive ones that dosent know what they are doing because he love us.

catholicismandbibletheology.blog.com/

 

[Ceil-1]

To understand God, you need to do a serious study of Scripture in its entirety. Had the Israelites wiped out the Caananites (descendants of Cain, BTW), they would have remained faithful to God and would have prospered and changed the world. As it is, they did not follow God’s directives and were overcome, culturally, by the Cannanites’ idolatry and other sins such as immolating their children by fire (sacrificing them to their gods). Eventually, they broke into pieces and were overtaken by Assyria. That, too, was the hand of God, He even talks about it in Isaiah.

Apparently, the Caananites had known about God and rejected Him and persisted in their heinous crimes and this was what they had coming to them. God did not always order a total bann, but in certain cases He did. But, the Israelites didn’t do what they were told to do. They compromised, and as a result, were unfaithful to God’s covenant with them. Reminds me of us today.

The key point of Scripture is to trust and obey God and not question Him. Things go sooo much better when we do it His way and not ours.