Did God Turn Away from Jesus when Jesus was on the Cross?

[Grace_Angel]

What is the meaning of Jesus’ cry, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me,” recorded in Mark 15:32? Did God turn away from Jesus when Jesus was on the cross as part of the punishment Jesus bore for our sins or did Jesus just feel that God abandoned him as part of the experience of being human in which we can feel alone and separated from God during our greatest trials, even though God actually is with us?

Whilst I accept that these words come from Ps 22 and are the words of a hymn of the triumphant man, for me it still leaves a sense of doubt. Like Jesus doubted His father. One day while reading the Prophet Habakuk I came across these words,
“Your eyes are too pure to gaze upon iniquity” (Hk 1:13) this answered the question for me. On the Cross Jesus became “Sin” and in this state He could no longer see the face of His Father. He could feel that His father could not look at Him. This echos our own cries to God, when we feel that He has turned his face and heart from us. And just like Jesus and His Ressurrection, God has not turned away from us, but As Creator God he cannot gaze on iniquity. Jesus is our mediator between us and the Father most especially because He knows what it feels like to feel that God has abandoned us, but in reality and looking back he has not.
GraceAngel.

 

[NotWorthy]

Here’s where I’m getting hung up - 1. As a result of God’s perfect Justice, the consequences of sin is separation from God and death; 2. As a result of God’s perfect Love, Jesus bore the sins of the world in atonement while He was on the cross; Jesus paid the price due to us as a result of sin, which is separation and death. Here’s the essential problem I’m having – How can God’s Justice be satisfied without Him turning away from Jesus during the three horrible hours while Jesus was on the Cross bearing the punishment for sin due to fallen humankind? Jesus, never losing faith, commited his spirit to God prior to dying. Please, explain to me where I’m wrong because I don’t like this line of logic at all but I can’t seem to get around it. Explanations of the Trinity and God’s oneness don’t seem convincing because of God’s omnipotence. I can’t see why an all powerful triune God can’t metaphysically separate/ignore/reject/turn away from an aspect of Himself for three hours if necessary to satisfy both Justice and Love.

Jesus’ death on the Cross is His crowning achievement, for nowhere does Jesus show a greater love than what He did on the Cross.

God, as a proud Father, would recognize that this broken heap nailed to a piece of wood by some selfish hypocrites has done everything He was asked of.

God would look down on the Cross with all the Love and Joy that a Father could have for His Son. Do you think God would abandon Jesus at this moment?

Think of it this way, any of you parents out there. Your son is up to bat in the bottom of the last inning at the championship game. Are you going to turn away and abandon him as you hear the crack of the bat and the ball heading towards the outfield bleachers? And that’s **nothing **compared to the home run that Jesus hit on the Cross!!!

I think we are trying to look at this through our human lenses. What we look at as a horrible death, God looks on as His Victory over Satan.

 

[BRB]

Water and it’s 3 phases is an incomplete way to explain the mystery of the Trinity and the Church acknowledges this. The trouble with this analogy is that the three phases of water do not exist at the same time in the same place. We know that this is not true of the Trinity.

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Not true … @ STP[standard temp. & pressure] … H20 is found in all three phases at the same time.

Recall, water is only one of phases of H20. When we say water, as you did above, … we often imply H20.

Again, at STP … ICE is covered with a thin sheeting of liquid WATER, which is equilabration with gasesous H2O VAPOR above it. At STP … ice, liquid water, and gasesous vapor can readily go back and forth between the 3 phases.

You will not find a better ‘physical’ example in all chemistry … to show how ONE molecular material can be found at same time in 3 different states.

Its no wonder the Churches’ scientific advisors to the Pope like to use H20 to express the 3 in 1 concept of Trinity … using a material item we all know so well.

Again … we all know the Trinity is 3 persons in 1. However, in Old Testament times … the H.S. was often represented to mankind as the Vapor Cloud of H20. And even John B. saw the H.S. decend upon Jesus … in cloud / shaped like a peaceful dove.

Clouds, as we all know … are water vapor. So is the rainbow … for that matter.

 

[BRB]

Do you think God would abandon Jesus at this moment?

Think of it this way, any of you parents out there. Your son is up to bat in the bottom of the last inning at the championship game. Are you going to turn away and abandon him as you hear the crack of the bat and the ball heading towards the outfield bleachers? And that’s **nothing **compared to the home run that Jesus hit on the Cross!!!

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It doesn’t really matter what we would of done as a parent. Its what Jesus taught us as truth of matter.

Here are some more verses to consider:

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but He sent me.”

John 11:41-42 “Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. I knew that thou hearest me always, …”

John 12: 27-30 “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’ ? No, for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify thy name.” "
Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” The crowd standing by heard it and said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.”

John 14: 16-17 “And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth,”

John 14:28 " I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."

Also the Nicean Creed summarizes the mystery of the Trinity relationships very well.

Yes, Christ hit a homerun for us … but, no one has ever experienced the emotional & physical torture that Christ felt. Christ was not protected of the pain and agony on Cross. Who else has ever sweated blood ? He alone bore our sins and experienced our sorrows. He was the sacrifice of the Father for mankind. No longer are sin sacrifices desired of us … only obedience to Christ.

To sacrifice means to ‘give up something’. Again … points to a brief period [hour(s)] of separation of Jesus from the Father. At moment of death … Jesus offered back His spirit, and rejoined the ONE in unity and victory.

 

[BRB]

You mean like, “I and the Father are One”, or “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”? Something like that?

There is One God. Where One person of that Trinity is, there you will find the Others.

Here’s what the Catechism teaches on the Trinity

Yes, inseparable now and forever more. But, only at the hour of the cross … did the Father allow the ‘once only’ sacrifice of Son.

 

[BRB]

God would look down on the Cross with all the Love and Joy that a Father could have for His Son. Do you think God would abandon Jesus at this moment?

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God didn’t wish to … but, sin requires penalty in payment. DEATH. As others have said above … sin = separation from God.

We say “Christ paid for our sins” don’t we ?? The death penalty for OUR sins. Christ was the only ‘perfect sacrifice’.

 

[NotWorthy]

Not true … @ STP[standard temp. & pressure] … H20 is found in all three phases at the same time.

Recall, water is only one of phases of H20. When we say water, as you did above, … we often imply H20.

Again, at STP … ICE is covered with a thin sheeting of liquid WATER, which is equilabration with gasesous H2O VAPOR above it. At STP … ice, liquid water, and gasesous vapor can readily go back and forth between the 3 phases.

You will not find a better ‘physical’ example in all chemistry … to show how ONE molecular material can be found at same time in 3 different states. Its no wonder the Churches’ scientific advisors to the Pope like to use H20 to express the 3 in 1 concept of Trinity … using a material item we all know so well.

Thanks for the lesson (seriously, thanks. There’s no sarcasm in my expression of appreciation). But no matter how accurate the analogy is, the Trinity is still a mystery and you can’t use an incomplete analogy to completely explain something.

Again … we all know the Trinity is 3 persons in 1. However, in Old Testament times … the H.S. was often represented to mankind as the Vapor Cloud of H20. And even John B. saw the H.S. decend upon Jesus … in cloud / shaped like a peaceful dove.

Clouds, as we all know … are water vapor. So is the rainbow … for that matter.

The H.S. was represented as the Glory Cloud (the Shekina), but this was only for our feeble minds to grasp. The Triune God was doing the work, but the manifestation of the work was shown in the Person of the Holy Spirit. But make no bones about it, God the Father and God the Son were united with God the Holy Spirit as the Glory Cloud performed It’s work for the Israelites.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, inseparable now and forever more. But, only at the hour of the cross … did the Father allow the ‘once only’ sacrifice of Son.

The phrase is “once for all”, which means continuous. The Sacrifice, as explained in Revelation, continues even to this day.

 

[NotWorthy]

I deleted the rest of this post because it’s irrelevant. For the post is in answer to God “abandoning the Son”.

Yes, Christ hit a homerun for us … but, no one has ever experienced the emotional & physical torture that Christ felt. Christ was not protected of the pain and agony on Cross. Who else has ever sweated blood ? He alone bore our sins and experienced our sorrows. He was the sacrifice of the Father for mankind. No longer are sin sacrifices desired of us … only obedience to Christ.

To sacrifice means to ‘give up something’. Again … points to a brief period [hour(s)] of separation of Jesus from the Father. At moment of death … Jesus offered back His spirit, and rejoined the ONE in unity and victory.

Sorry, but what you are saying is simply wrong. God never abandoned Jesus, especially when Jesus is performing the greatest act in all mankind. Period.

 

[NotWorthy]

God didn’t wish to … but, sin requires penalty in payment. DEATH. As others have said above … sin = separation from God.

We say “Christ paid for our sins” don’t we ?? The death penalty for OUR sins. Christ was the only ‘perfect sacrifice’.

Yes, Christ paid for our sins, but it’s the sin that separates us from God, not the redemption.

The death penalty is a “Type” in the OT of what sin does to us in the New Covenant. But Christ did not Sin, for God and Sin cannot co-exist. Hence Christ paid the price of our sin, but He did not sin and He was not separated from that which He cannot be separated from.

 

[BRB]

Christ paid the price of our sin, but He did not sin.

This be true.

I never said Jesus sinned. I said Jesus died once for all times … as sacrifice for OUR sins.

Yes, each time we observe / partake of Eucharist … we received the Resurrected Christ. The sacrament is not a repeat sacrifice of Christ for us. It is not a recrucifixion of Christ. It is a rememberance of us for Him, but it is also a mystical work of Him for us.

Christ died only once. But, in taking cup and body of Christ … we both offer sacrifice of ourselves and gifts [to Chirst] & allow Him to provide mystical physical / spiritual healing to our bodies … via His resurrected body/spirit.

 

[BRB]

The Sacrifice, as explained in Revelation, continues even to this day.

The Church does not teach that Christ sacrifice on Cross is continuous. Christ’s dead occurred only once in history.

We are to remember His death in 30 AD … offer ourselves to Him as often as we meet, and allow Christ to come down from heaven [as He is invoked by prayers of Priest] … and mystically transform the host into His body/spirit … so we may receive physical and spiritual healing.

 

[BRB]

God never abandoned Jesus, especially when Jesus is performing the greatest act in all mankind. Period.

Sin sacrifices in O.T. required death of animal … and one to eat the roasted flesh/blood. Priest had to do the honors to invoke blessing of God.

Sin sacrifice for N.T. Christians is the once only death of Christ in 30 AD … and our receiving his flesh/blood via Eucharist.
Priest today, still must do the honors of invoking Christ into the host.

Words of Jesus do suggest He was briefy abandoned by the Father … while on the Cross bearing our Sins unto death. Our sins briefly separated Him from the Father. Sin requires a sacrifice by Death … Christ assumed our Sins – and the Father accepted His perfect sacrifice for us.

 

[NotWorthy]

The Church does not teach that Christ sacrifice on Cross is continuous. Christ’s dead occurred only once in history.

We are to remember His death in 30 AD … offer ourselves to Him as often as we meet, and allow Christ to come down from heaven [as He is invoked by prayers of Priest] … and mystically transform the host into His body/spirit … so we may receive physical and spiritual healing.

What is the Lamb doing in Revelation? What does “once for all” mean?

 

[NotWorthy]

Words of Jesus do suggest He was briefy abandoned by the Father … while on the Cross bearing our Sins unto death. Our sins briefly separated Him from the Father. Sin requires a sacrifice by Death … Christ assumed our Sins – and the Father accepted His perfect sacrifice for us.

Words of Jesus do suggest he was renewing our faith and confidence in God and His Promises. It has nothing to do with that which is impossible.

Christ assumed the curse of ours sins. Death. Christ did not separated from That which He cannot separate.

 

[BRB]

What is the Lamb doing in Revelation? What does “once for all” mean?

The Lamb depicts Christ our sacrifice on Cross, who has conquered death for Christians, … who is reigning as King in Heaven.

Also … recall the Church refers to the Eucharist as a Non-bloody sacrifice. This does not mean the blood is not mystically transformed into blood. It means we don’t visually see it as bloody.

Once for all … means at a point in history ‘kairos’ time], never to happen again. For all humanity … those living before,during, and after the passion event on the Cross.

Also, on another subject, a question for you. Mark 11:30.

“Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men ?” That question was never answered … but, what would you of said ?

 

[NotWorthy]

I’ll address the first part of your quote at a later time. But in the meantime

Also, on another subject, a question for you. Mark 11:30.

“Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men ?” That question was never answered … but, what would you of said ?

Sadly, if I were living back then, I’d probably acted like the Pharisees and sat around and plotted the death of this young upstart from (“ugh”) Galilee, for nothing good ever came from Nazareth.

But now I can tell you that the Baptism of John came from Heaven, for he was sent by God to Prepare the Way of the Lord!!!

 

[NotWorthy]

The Lamb depicts Christ our sacrifice on Cross, who has conquered death for Christians, … who is reigning as King in Heaven.

Also … recall the Church refers to the Eucharist as a Non-bloody sacrifice. This does not mean the blood is not mystically transformed into blood. It means we don’t visually see it as bloody.

Once for all … means at a point in history ‘kairos’ time], never to happen again. For all humanity … those living before,during, and after the passion event on the Cross.

I found what I was looking for on the Sacrifice.

The problem with the objection that is advocated with the support of Hebrews 7:27 is that it logically concludes that the sacrifice of Christ ceased to exist and that it was a one time event without continuation. The element of truth in this objection is that the sacrifice of Christ was a historical event that happened in the course of time. However, the only element of the sacrifice that is finished is the manner in which Christ offered Himself, that is in a bloody manner. This bloody aspect is not the only aspect of the one sacrifice of Christ. There is a transcendent aspect to the one true sacrifice of Christ and that is it is eternal. If the sacrifice is eternal, then it does not have an end as the objection proposes. The way in which we can demonstrate that the sacrifice is eternal is reflecting upon the everlasting priesthood of Christ. The writer of the letter to the Hebrews says in reference to Jesus, “but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever."

Because Jesus is an eternal priest, Jesus is able “for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” How does a priest intercede for the people of God? In Hebrews 5:1, the Scriptures say that the high priest is taken from among men and “appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.”[22] Therefore, the ministry of every priest is to intercede for the people of God by offering gifts and sacrifices. The author of the book of Hebrews reemphasizes this theme again in 8:3 for he says, “For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices.”

Therefore, it is necessary for Jesus, as our eternal high priest, to have gifts and sacrifices to offer. This is the very conclusion of the author of Hebrews in reference to Jesus in the second part of Hebrews 8:3: “hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer.”

One might think that Christ has already fulfilled His duty as the high priest by offering Himself on the cross on Calvary, but this does not explain his everlasting priestly ministry. The Scriptures say that Jesus is our high priest who is “seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the sanctuary and the true tent which is set up not by man but by the Lord.” Jesus has entered this heavenly sanctuary once and for all as our high priest “to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.”Therefore, the priestly ministry of Christ did not cease with the end of His earthly ministry, but it continues in Heaven. Further, He must eternally offer gifts and sacrifices in Heaven before God the Father as our high priest.

Now the question is, “what does Christ offer to the Father as our high priest?” The answer is simple, Himself. What did Christ offer to the Father here on earth as our high priest? He offered his body and blood in sacrifice both at the Last Supper and on the cross. This offering was the perfect way in which Jesus could intercede for the human race as our high priest. Never was there a sacrifice and never will there be another sacrifice that has the infinite value such as the one sacrifice of the God-man. Therefore, the only thing that Christ offers as a gift to His Father in fulfillment of His heavenly priestly ministry is Himself in that one sacrifice. That one sacrifice that occurred in a bloody manner 2000 years ago is for eternity r*e-presented *to the Father in an unbloody manner. It is the same sacrifice because it is the same priest, and the same victim.

 

[japhy]

BRB, Jesus could not have paid the full price of sin, because if he did, he would still be in Hell, eternally separated from God! And Jesus commended his spirit into the Father’s hands the moment before his death.

 

[NotWorthy]

The Lamb depicts Christ our sacrifice on Cross, who has conquered death for Christians, … who is reigning as King in Heaven.

“Depicts” is a poor choice of words, for it implies that Christ is only creating an image of His Sacrifice. If that is what you meant, I think you are wrong. If I misunderstood you, then I apologize. From the same site:

St. John the evangelist writes about this truth in the book of Revelation. In Revelation 5:6-8, St. John reveals to the readers what he saw in his heavenly vision:

And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain…And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb.

All Christians agree that the Lamb of God is Jesus Christ, for St. John would quote St. John the Baptizer who refers to Jesus as “the Lamb of God” in John1:29. Jesus is the lamb because He is the sacrificial victim for the whole of the human race. This is why St. John would record that he saw the lamb appearing as it were slain. Therefore, Jesus, who is priest, is also victim. This revelation suggests that John is witnessing to the reality of the one sacrifice of the true Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, re-presented to the Father in Heaven.

         The reality of Christ exercising His eternal priesthood by *re-presenting *Himself in that one sacrifice before the Father in Heaven is evidence against the objection that proposes that the sacrifice of Christ ceased in light of Hebrews 7:27.  If Christ is able to *re-present *His one perfect sacrifice that redeemed the human race to the Father in eternity in an unbloody manner, could He not make that one perfect sacrifice present in time in an unbloody manner for Christians 2000 years removed from that bloody historical event.  For the objector to say that the Catholic Church is re-crucifying Christ by teaching that the Mass is a sacrifice, then logically the conclusion is that the Scripture is teaching that Christ re-crucifies Himself in Heaven as He exercises His priesthood.  Therefore, to object to the Catholic Mass as a sacrifice with Hebrews 7:27, is to object to the heavenly priestly ministry of Christ.