Did I go to far?

[RastaPasta]

My wife says that since her and I cohabitated and had coitus prior to marriage (we didnt come home to the Catholic church until two years into our marriage) we have no right to tell others not to do it.

Well let’s just say the issue was something else… like illegal drug use. Let’s say you and wife engaged in that kind of behavior before you were married. Now the sister-in-law wants to come over for a visit (and plans to shoot up heroin in front of your children).

Would your wife tell you to keep your mouth shut if you objected to the planned activities of your sister-in-law, simply because you and your wife might have had previous experiences with controlled dangerous substances?

 

[Poof]

Not at all. What you’re doing is actually a standard practice in my country. “Leaving a boy and a girl outside of marriage in the same room to sleep is wrong. If they aren’t sleeping, the doors still have to be kept unlocked.” - as my mom says it…

I’m no adult but I see nothing wrong with what you just did!

 

[Kay_Cee]

Well let’s just say the issue was something else… like illegal drug use. Let’s say you and wife engaged in that kind of behavior before you were married. Now the sister-in-law wants to come over for a visit (and plans to shoot up heroin in front of your children).

Would your wife tell you to keep your mouth shut if you objected to the planned activities of your sister-in-law, simply because you and your wife might have had previous experiences with controlled dangerous substances?

Excellent point. Isn’t it strange how people think the rules change when it’s about sex?

To the OP: If I were you, I would ask my wife if it’s okay for you to demand that she go against her conscience, and in her own home no less. I’m sure she’ll say “no” to that. Then you can gently point out that’s exactly what she did to you. Whether or not she believes your conscience was telling you the right thing is beside the point. She did still demand you go against your conscience. She demanded you do something you consider sinful and then called you names for refusing to offend God by caving in to what you believe is a sin. Ask her, gently of course, if it would be all right for you to do that to her.

If you haven’t already, you need to forgive her and all others who have hurt you in this matter.

 

[wendy_w]

You are not alone. My son and his girlfriend live together, we do not approve. When they come to our house they have to sleep in seperate rooms. We still love our son but that doesn’t mean I have to cave on what I believe in. His sister is only 13 and we don’t what to send the message that we think what he is doing is o.k. If they think we are narrow minded then they are welcome to stay in a hotel.

 

[JRKH]

Excellent point. Isn’t it strange how people think the rules change when it’s about sex?

To the OP: If I were you, I would ask my wife if it’s okay for you to demand that she go against her conscience, and in her own home no less. I’m sure she’ll say “no” to that. Then you can gently point out that’s exactly what she did to you. Whether or not she believes your conscience was telling you the right thing is beside the point. She did still demand you go against your conscience. She demanded you do something you consider sinful and then called you names for refusing to offend God by caving in to what you believe is a sin. Ask her, gently of course, if it would be all right for you to do that to her.

If you haven’t already, you need to forgive her and all others who have hurt you in this matter.

This is a good point but then too this is a bit more complicated in that the couple here are of “two consciouses” on the matter. Perhaps not polar opposites but not on the same page either.

They may both agree (now) that sex outside marriage is wrong, but they differ on how to approach this as it relates to others and what boundaries are appropriate. He did not want this occurring in their home and she (apparently) had no problem with it.
This sort of thing is a microcosm of what we, as the Church, must deal with every day. What is appropriate admonishment and how to apply it in a loving way.

This will require some gentle discussion and perhaps over some time in order to sort it out.

Peace
James

 

[Kay_Cee]

My wife says that since her and I cohabitated and had coitus prior to marriage (we didnt come home to the Catholic church until two years into our marriage) we have no right to tell others not to do it.

By that logic, St. Peter had no right to tell others not to deny Christ, and St. Paul had no right to tell others not to persecute the Church.

 

[wendy_w]

My wife says that since her and I cohabitated and had coitus prior to marriage (we didnt come home to the Catholic church until two years into our marriage) we have no right to tell others not to do it.

The sister in-law is also Catholic, and she has a degree in Catholic apologetics/theology from a local Catholic University. The new boyfriend is a Protestant of some sort.

Considering that all involved parties are Catholic / Christian I was truly not expecting the backlash.

I would just like to add that we have all sinned in our past lives, that is really not the point. We are trying to live out our faith today. Unfortunely there usually is backlash.
I guess that is why Jesus said Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake. Really in my opinion your sister-in-law made way to big of a deal of this, she should have respected your beliefs.

 

[Kay_Cee]

This is a good point but then too this is a bit more complicated in that the couple here are of “two consciouses” on the matter. Perhaps not polar opposites but not on the same page either.

They may both agree (now) that sex outside marriage is wrong, but they differ on how to approach this as it relates to others and what boundaries are appropriate. He did not want this occurring in their home and she (apparently) had no problem with it.
This sort of thing is a microcosm of what we, as the Church, must deal with every day. What is appropriate admonishment and how to apply it in a loving way.

This will require some gentle discussion and perhaps over some time in order to sort it out.

Peace
James

I would agree with you, but I don’t see how anyone’s conscience can demand that two unmarried people (or even married people, for that matter) absolutely must sleep in the same bed when visiting from out of town. Would her conscience really have told her it is a sin to keep them in separate rooms? I just don’t see how, so she should have respected her husband’s conscience since hers could not have been telling her the exact opposite.

 

[Bookcat]

The end was correct (it is not too far to not let a couple share a room in your house)…one can always examine the means as to the way it was perhaps communicated (I do not know…I was not there ).

Pray…seek advice perhaps from your Priest as to how to discuss with your wife …hopefully with prayer and time etc things will be better and your wife et al will come to see that your decision at least --was the right one.

Remember too that Jesus said he did not come to bring peace…but the sword…that households will be divided on account of him…that would include husbands against wives… see Matthew 10:34 and following.

Hopefully your wife will come to see that your decision (maybe not the means (?) but at least the actual decision) was the one in conformity to Christ. Jesus can bring you both true peace in following him… (she is obviously in this situation influenced by the surrounding culture…even in her seeking to be a good Christian these influences have it seems entered into her emotions and thoughts and made them cloudy…)

Now of course it must be “truth with love”…but it still needs to be truth. For an “apparent” love without truth is not love.

This can be of some help too:

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
• by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
• by protecting evil-doers.

also these:

blog.adw.org/2010/06/correcting-the-sinner-is-not-being-judgmental-it-is-an-essential-work-of-charity/

blog.adw.org/2009/11/fraternal-correction-the-forgotten-virtue/

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I would agree with you, but I don’t see how anyone’s conscience can demand that two unmarried people (or even married people, for that matter) absolutely must sleep in the same bed when visiting from out of town. Would her conscience really have told her it is a sin to keep them in separate rooms? I just don’t see how, so she should have respected her husband’s conscience since hers could not have been telling her the exact opposite.

Of course she doesn’t feel like it would be wrong to sleep apart, but she may feel that its wrong to pass judgement on her sister’s relationship or make her feel uncomfortable during her visit. She could also feel that her sister has loved and accepted her her entire life and it would be wrong treat her romantic relationship like that and show make it clear to her that she can’t accept the way she lives.

Those are only a few of the reasons she could be upset.

The thing about being married is that even if you are 100% positive that you are right you still don’t get to make a unilateral decision. Not having the sole authority over your home is frustrating, but its part of sharing your life with someone.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by Adam_Michael
My wife says that since her and I cohabitated and had coitus prior to marriage (we didnt come home to the Catholic church until two years into our marriage) we have no right to tell others not to do it.

Perfect…

And what about St Augustine…

St Paul speaks of the old sinful self dying and putting on the new.

Peace
James

 

[Leon_Bloy]

OP, you did absolutely the right thing.

The only challenge is to make it clear that this is out of respect for God’s law (they should at least see this as you being faithful to your conscience and the values you wish to teach to your children), and not out of spite, etc. How you explain it to them - angrily or charitably - makes a big difference in how it plays out.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Of course she doesn’t feel like it would be wrong to sleep apart, but she may feel that its wrong to pass judgement on her sister’s relationship or make her feel uncomfortable during her visit. She could also feel that her sister has loved and accepted her her entire life and it would be wrong treat her romantic relationship like that and show make it clear to her that she can’t accept the way she lives.

Those are only a few of the reasons she could be upset.

The thing about being married is that even if you are 100% positive that you are right you still don’t get to make a unilateral decision. Not having the sole authority over your home is frustrating, but its part of sharing your life with someone.

I have to disagree. It is never okay for someone to demand that I violate my own conscience, whether I am married to that person or not and whether or not that person agrees that my conscience is reasonable.

Do you really think God believes it’s okay to allow others to fornicate in your home–and have that as an example to your children–because your spouse and guests get upset? Personally, I would rather offend them a billion billion billion times than offend God once.

We are to love God with our whole hearts, our whole minds, and our whole strength. That is the First and Greatest Commandment. Only after that are we to love our neighbors as ourselves. God comes first, and we are to give Him our all, not compromise it in order to pacify hurt feelings.

It is never okay to sin in order to please someone!!!

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I have to disagree. It is never okay for someone to demand that I violate my own conscience, whether I am married to that person or not and whether or not that person agrees that my conscience is reasonable.

Do you really think God believes it’s okay to allow others to fornicate in your home–and have that as an example to your children–because your spouse and guests get upset? Personally, I would rather offend them a billion billion billion times than offend God once.

We are to love God with our whole hearts, our whole minds, and our whole strength. That is the First and Greatest Commandment. Only after that are we to love our neighbors as ourselves. God comes first, and we are to give Him our all, not compromise it in order to pacify hurt feelings.

It is never okay to sin in order to please someone!!!

But that’s the problem, if the wife is convinced that it would be a sin to treat her sister like that then you have two people who are just as convinced that they are right in the eyes of god.

I didn’t say that the wife was right, but I am saying that there’s a good chance that she feels just as strongly as he does and will fight just as hard. That’s why I said that they need to talk and come to an understanding. It may well be that they don’t host anyone, married or not so that she doesn’t feel like she’s treating anyone like a second-class citizen and he doesn’t feel like he’s harboring mortal sin.

 

[Kay_Cee]

But that’s the problem, if the wife is convinced that it would be a sin to treat her sister like that then you have two people who are just as convinced that they are right in the eyes of god.

I didn’t say that the wife was right, but I am saying that there’s a good chance that she feels just as strongly as he does and will fight just as hard. That’s why I said that they need to talk and come to an understanding. It may well be that they don’t host anyone, married or not so that she doesn’t feel like she’s treating anyone like a second-class citizen and he doesn’t feel like he’s harboring mortal sin.

Oh, I agree they need to talk about it. But there is no way in the world the husband can harbor mortal sin, for that would be committing a sin himself. According to CCC 1868, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them, including by not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Oh, I agree they need to talk about it. But there is no way in the world the husband can harbor mortal sin, for that would be committing a sin himself. According to CCC 1868, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them, including by not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so.

And I understand that, but depending on her personal beliefs and how serious she is in the faith she may not, or she may and just not care.

He still doesn’t get to make the decision though, it is their house. Granted, she doesn’t get to make it either. That’s why its a stalemate.

The reason I chose to stick up for the wife was because while everyone was patting him on the back they seemed to forget that even though they think the wife is wrong, in her home she gets a say too. When you’re married it isn’t enough to be convinced that you’re right and steamroll your spouse to get your way. You have to talk, compromise, and respect each other’s point of view. It isn’t a one-way street.

 

[Kay_Cee]

And I understand that, but depending on her personal beliefs and how serious she is in the faith she may not, or she may and just not care.

He still doesn’t get to make the decision though, it is their house. Granted, she doesn’t get to make it either. That’s why its a stalemate.

The reason I chose to stick up for the wife was because while everyone was patting him on the back they seemed to forget that even though they think the wife is wrong, in her home she gets a say too. When you’re married it isn’t enough to be convinced that you’re right and steamroll your spouse to get your way. You have to talk, compromise, and respect each other’s point of view. It isn’t a one-way street.

It isn’t a matter of “steamrolling” your spouse to get your way. It isn’t ***your ***way at all. It’s God’s way. God’s Law cannot be compromised and no view but His should be respected. It is a “one-way street,” for Jesus is the only Way. If you’re going the opposite way from Him, you know where you’re headed.

Suppose these guests wanted to have a threesome in his house? Suppose it were an incestuous relationship? Suppose a guy wanted to bring several wives with him? Suppose beastiality were involved? Would you still say “You have to talk, compromise, and respect each other’s point of view”?

Sorry, but I wouldn’t.

 

[JRKH]

But that’s the problem, if the wife is convinced that it would be a sin to treat her sister like that then you have two people who are just as convinced that they are right in the eyes of god.

I didn’t say that the wife was right, but I am saying that there’s a good chance that she feels just as strongly as he does and will fight just as hard. That’s why I said that they need to talk and come to an understanding. It may well be that they don’t host anyone, married or not so that she doesn’t feel like she’s treating anyone like a second-class citizen and he doesn’t feel like he’s harboring mortal sin.

I agree with this.
In a Christian Marriage, neither spouse would wish for the other to violate their conscience.

However…It must be said too that in a Christian marriage, where there is disagreement, the thing to do is to agree on what is correct by Christian teaching - and in this case, by Catholic teaching.
It is by recourse to the Church’s teachings, That firm foundation that both claim to accept by virtue of their being Catholic, that it is determined which conscience is correct.

With that settled, the couple can move on to discussing what they feel is an appropriate stance to take under their roof - especially since their are children involved, AND the subject couple are also Christian…This gets into the matter of example to the children and the Christian duty to admonish the sinner.

SO -
In this situation, it is not as though the Husband and Wife are on their own. Church teaching needs to be a big factor and accepted arbiter in the discussions.

Peace
James

 

[wendy_w]

Blue eyed lady If I understand you are a atheist then you are not going to understand this gentlemans position. He is trying to live his faith, his sister in law should respect that. His position is based on his faith in God, not modern secular views.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I understand his view, and I have never said that he should cave. But if his faith demands that they sleep separate and here understanding of god calls her to be open and welcoming to her sister then they have a problem. Saying “my religion says I’m right so I get my way” is just not going to cut it with his wife on that or any issue.

Perhaps they shouldn’t host anyone and make that a blanket policy, then neither are going against what they believe is right. Or if she absolutely insists he can remove himself from the situation and make a pretty strong point by staying elsewhere with the kids. (That could cause more problems though.)

The point is that she gets a say in her home too, and when he married her he knew that she would have a say.