Did I miss something?

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catharina

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Yesterday’s Mass was so unusual - specifically, the “homily.”
A deacon was present to preach the homily but the first thing
he did was introduce a very young woman to “teach” about
stewardship. Her claim to fame: some years as an assistant
in the kindergarten classes and a few more years assisting in
the realm of parish stewardship. I was stunned - as soon as
she finished her speech and the deacon took over, I left the Mass.

Vatican II (and since then) rubrics demand that the homily be an
instrument of teaching based in the day’s Scriptures, and that it
be delivered by a priest or deacon. So what was this?

The pastor “prides himself” on being faithful to Vatican II. HUH???
Yet the pastor was not present at Mass to “ask” the folks for funds.
Going back to my childhood in the 40s and 50s, the pastor always
assigned that chore to himself for every Sunday Mass. I have no need
or desire to hear Miss Young Woman describe her understanding of
stewardship. I will be writing the pastor - and I doubt that I will attend
Mass at that parish again. So, did I miss something? Is this a usual
or even acceptable practice?

Comments?
 
This is not indicative of any of the parishes I’ve been. Is this normal behavior for this parish? We have rubrics so that liturgical abuse doesn’t run rampant within the Church. I’m not advocating rigid legalism but if liturgical abuse goes to far, it can impact the validity of sacraments. Writing to the deacon for clarification is a good idea as I share your concern.
 
catharina said:
Yesterday’s Mass was so unusual - specifically, the “homily.”
A deacon was present to preach the homily but the first thing
he did was introduce a very young woman to “teach” about
stewardship. Her claim to fame: some years as an assistant
in the kindergarten classes and a few more years assisting in
the realm of parish stewardship. I was stunned - as soon as
she finished her speech and the deacon took over, I left the Mass.

Vatican II (and since then) rubrics demand that the homily be an
instrument of teaching based in the day’s Scriptures, and that it
be delivered by a priest or deacon. So what was this?

The pastor “prides himself” on being faithful to Vatican II. HUH???
Yet the pastor was not present at Mass to “ask” the folks for funds.
Going back to my childhood in the 40s and 50s, the pastor always
assigned that chore to himself for every Sunday Mass. I have no need
or desire to hear Miss Young Woman describe her understanding of
stewardship. I will be writing the pastor - and I doubt that I will attend
Mass at that parish again. So, did I miss something? Is this a usual
or even acceptable practice?

Comments?
Click to expand...
Instructions and testimony are to be given at the time of announcements per R.S.
A talk, other than by a deacon or a priest is permitted after the homily, at the time of announcements and after the mass.
I would not walk out of mass over a minor abuse.
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
This is not indicative of any of the parishes I’ve been. Is this normal behavior for this parish? We have rubrics so that liturgical abuse doesn’t run rampant within the Church. I’m not advocating rigid legalism but if liturgical abuse goes to far, it can impact the validity of sacraments. Writing to the deacon for clarification is a good idea as I share your concern.
Click to expand...
Yes. In fact, I’m writing to the pastor.
 
thomas_jd said:
Instructions and testimony are to be given at the time of announcements per R.S.
A talk, other than by a deacon or a priest is permitted after the homily, at the time of announcements and after the mass.
I would not walk out of mass over a minor abuse.
Click to expand...
This was not “after the homily.”
It was in the midst of the homily.
Because the parish is so large, I had no
problem with walking out - and I’ll follow
up with a letter to the pastor. I think making
a “public objection/exit” is a good thing.

Playing fast and loose with the Liturgy
can only lead to more of the same.

The only other time I left a Mass midway
was a Christmas Eve Mass at the Oakland CA
cathedral when the organist struck up “Chestnuts
Roasting on an Open Fire” as the offertory procession
“hymn.” That was in 1973. I don’t exit the Mass
in protest as a matter of habit!

Re your bolded-above: to each his own.
 
TheMc said:
Yet somehow I doubt that he frequently offers the Mass in latin and promotes chant and polyphony…
Click to expand...
It makes me so sad. This is my alternate parish
and I’ve been attending for 10+ yrs - when I’m too
ill to attend the earlier Masses at my own parish.

Have seen no problems until yesterday.
 
catharina said:
Yesterday’s Mass was so unusual - specifically, the “homily.”
A deacon was present to preach the homily but the first thing
he did was introduce a very young woman to “teach” about
stewardship. Her claim to fame: some years as an assistant
in the kindergarten classes and a few more years assisting in
the realm of parish stewardship. I was stunned - as soon as
she finished her speech and the deacon took over, I left the Mass.

Vatican II (and since then) rubrics demand that the homily be an
instrument of teaching based in the day’s Scriptures, and that it
be delivered by a priest or deacon. So what was this?

The pastor “prides himself” on being faithful to Vatican II. HUH???
Yet the pastor was not present at Mass to “ask” the folks for funds.
Going back to my childhood in the 40s and 50s, the pastor always
assigned that chore to himself for every Sunday Mass. I have no need
or desire to hear Miss Young Woman describe her understanding of
stewardship. I will be writing the pastor - and I doubt that I will attend
Mass at that parish again. So, did I miss something? Is this a usual
or even acceptable practice?

Comments?
Click to expand...
Luckily we don’t have anything like this.

A priest or brother from somewhere else in the world to talk to us about that region or something like that but otherwise the priest or deacon says the homily.
 
catharina said:
Yesterday’s Mass was so unusual - specifically, the “homily.”
A deacon was present to preach the homily but the first thing
he did was introduce a very young woman to “teach” about
stewardship. Her claim to fame: some years as an assistant
in the kindergarten classes and a few more years assisting in
the realm of parish stewardship. I was stunned - as soon as
she finished her speech and the deacon took over, I left the Mass.

Vatican II (and since then) rubrics demand that the homily be an
instrument of teaching based in the day’s Scriptures, and that it
be delivered by a priest or deacon. So what was this?

The pastor “prides himself” on being faithful to Vatican II. HUH???
Yet the pastor was not present at Mass to “ask” the folks for funds.
Going back to my childhood in the 40s and 50s, the pastor always
assigned that chore to himself for every Sunday Mass. I have no need
or desire to hear Miss Young Woman describe her understanding of
stewardship. I will be writing the pastor - and I doubt that I will attend
Mass at that parish again. So, did I miss something? Is this a usual
or even acceptable practice?

Comments?
Click to expand...
Based on the reading, good stewardship could be considered the teaching of the Gospel. Since the deacon did preach before and after the “teaching” he was using the teacher to give a punctuation to his homily. If the parsish was in general doing a stewardship Sunday, then perhaps it would have been better for her to speak after mass.
I find this not much different that when the homilist ask for replies to questions. Instead of having her come up, he could have asked the question to the congregation “what is yours experiance in stewardship?” and had her stand up and answer.
I might have done it differntly, but the basis of the requirement of the rubics being met, was. The deacon was giving the homily.
Dcn FAB
 
catharina said:
Comments?
Click to expand...
the young lady did not give a homily, the deacon did, which is permissible if the bishop allows. The young lady was asked to give a testimony on her stewardship, which she did. It was NOT a homily both because she did not give a teaching based on the readings, and because she is not ordained, so by definition anything she said is not a homily. There probably was a valid homily, but you don’t know, because you left. I hope you made up for your Mass obligation later in the day. It is not the fault either of the lady or the deacon if the testimony came at the time and place for the homily, rather than from another location before Mass or after communion. So exactly to whom were you expressing your outrage by leaving?
 
puzzleannie said:
the young lady did not give a homily, the deacon did, which is permissible if the bishop allows. The young lady was asked to give a testimony on her stewardship, which she did. It was NOT a homily both because she did not give a teaching based on the readings, and because she is not ordained, so by definition anything she said is not a homily. There probably was a valid homily, but you don’t know, because you left. I hope you made up for your Mass obligation later in the day. It is not the fault either of the lady or the deacon if the testimony came at the time and place for the homily, rather than from another location before Mass or after communion. So exactly to whom were you expressing your outrage by leaving?
Click to expand...
No outrage, just an objection.
That objection is aimed at the pastor and he will hear it.

My departure was in defense of the Mass - as it should be offered.
It should not be built around the addition of a woman speaking, mid-homily.
I agree that the “fault” need not lay with the deacon or woman.
Yet, how did it happen? … and why?

I remained long enough to notice that the deacon returned to homily-mode.
It’s too sad when a parish decides it can be an exception to the rule -
in this case, that was quite likely the basis of her interference.

Also, I left knowing there were three more later Masses in my area.
It’s preposterous that a large parish should pull this.
We are talking very “common knowledge.” So, big oops?
Still a problem to me - not a big oops. Disheartening.
 
catharina said:
No outrage, just an objection.
That objection is aimed at the pastor and he will hear it.

My departure was in defense of the Mass - as it should be offered.
It should not be built around the addition of a woman speaking, mid-homily.
I agree that the “fault” need not lay with the deacon or woman.
Yet, how did it happen? … and why?

I remained long enough to notice that the deacon returned to homily-mode.
It’s too sad when a parish decides it can be an exception to the rule -
in this case, that was quite likely the basis of her interference.

Also, I left knowing there were three more later Masses in my area.
It’s preposterous that a large parish should pull this.
We are talking very “common knowledge.” So, big oops?
Still a problem to me - not a big oops. Disheartening.
Click to expand...
You are assuming that the deacon did something wrong. He did not. He only incorporated another person to give a personal testamony, he used her words as an example so he could tach on the gospel.
The deacon is given the facility to preach. Your actions will just cause trouble for a meber of clergy who is doing rightful job.
You may not like the way he decided to deliver his message. theres no problem here and no oops.

Dcn FAB
 
catharina said:
Yesterday’s Mass was so unusual - specifically, the “homily.”
A deacon was present to preach the homily but the first thing
he did was introduce a very young woman to “teach” about
stewardship. Her claim to fame: some years as an assistant
in the kindergarten classes and a few more years assisting in
the realm of parish stewardship. I was stunned - as soon as
she finished her speech and the deacon took over, I left the Mass.

Vatican II (and since then) rubrics demand that the homily be an
instrument of teaching based in the day’s Scriptures, and that it
be delivered by a priest or deacon. So what was this?

The pastor “prides himself” on being faithful to Vatican II. HUH???
Yet the pastor was not present at Mass to “ask” the folks for funds.
Going back to my childhood in the 40s and 50s, the pastor always
assigned that chore to himself for every Sunday Mass. I have no need
or desire to hear Miss Young Woman describe her understanding of
stewardship. I will be writing the pastor - and I doubt that I will attend
Mass at that parish again. So, did I miss something? Is this a usual
or even acceptable practice?

Comments?
Click to expand...
I don’t know what cause you believe you have for complaint in this matter taking into consideration your own precipitous actions. It appears to be a case of judging others by one set of standards while behaving by a different set. Did you go to or had you been to another Mass to fufil your obligation?
 
catharina said:
A deacon was present to preach the homily but the first thing
he did was introduce a very young woman to “teach” about
stewardship. Her claim to fame: some years as an assistant
in the kindergarten classes and a few more years assisting in
the realm of parish stewardship.
Click to expand...
There is really no need to denigrate her to make your point. You can be both charitable and critical at the same time. For all we know, her years assisting kindergarten classes might have been in lieu of applying an advanced technical degree. I’m “young” and if I volunteered assistance in a kindergarten for a few years I’d lose a considerable amount of wages in the process.
I was stunned - as soon as
she finished her speech and the deacon took over, I left the Mass.
Click to expand...
It appears that you make clear later that he spoke, then she spoke, then he resumed. Homilies are allowed to use interjection as a teaching aid, ergo this would, at best, be a very MINOR abuse of the homily, but most likely would not be an official abuse at all.

As for leaving the mass, I’m going to assume (following the charitable thing I mentioned earlier) that you:
  1. Left extremely quietly and not in a huff, so as not to scandalize the liturgy
  2. Attended another mass in order to satisfy your Sunday obligation.
We must remember, and this is directed generally, not to you, since I am assuming the above two things, that when we react with vitriol in mass to what we think are abuses, we can be very dangerously wrong in our behavior, especially if we scandalize the liturgy by causing a disruptive scene.
 
promethius said:
There is really no need to denigrate her to make your point. You can be both charitable and critical at the same time. For all we know, her years assisting kindergarten classes might have been in lieu of applying an advanced technical degree. I’m “young” and if I volunteered assistance in a kindergarten for a few years I’d lose a considerable amount of wages in the process.

It appears that you make clear later that he spoke, then she spoke, then he resumed. Homilies are allowed to use interjection as a teaching aid, ergo this would, at best, be a very MINOR abuse of the homily, but most likely would not be an official abuse at all.

As for leaving the mass, I’m going to assume (following the charitable thing I mentioned earlier) that you:
  1. Left extremely quietly and not in a huff, so as not to scandalize the liturgy
  2. Attended another mass in order to satisfy your Sunday obligation.
We must remember, and this is directed generally, not to you, since I am assuming the above two things, that when we react with vitriol in mass to what we think are abuses, we can be very dangerously wrong in our behavior, especially if we scandalize the liturgy by causing a disruptive scene.
Click to expand...
Interesting posts, lots of assumptions.

The deacon when introducing her, had already allowed that
he did not support the usual thought of “talents” as money.
Rather he believed we should ‘change the meaning’ to indicate
‘gifts’ or ‘experiences.’ Sure. So his view is not about stewardship -
but here comes someone to talk about stewardship. Sure.

His view of “talents” was new to me; I’m sure that he continued
to expand his thinking. Logic dictates that conclusion.

I have never been disruptive in leaving any Mass in all of my life;
nor would I ever do so. Funny that many assume the exact opposite.
 
catharina said:
Interesting posts, lots of assumptions.

The deacon when introducing her, had already allowed that
he did not support the usual thought of “talents” as money.
Rather he believed we should ‘change the meaning’ to indicate
‘gifts’ or ‘experiences.’ Sure. So his view is not about stewardship -
but here comes someone to talk about stewardship. Sure.

His view of “talents” was new to me; I’m sure that he continued
to expand his thinking. Logic dictates that conclusion.

I have never been disruptive in leaving any Mass in all of my life;
nor would I ever do so. Funny that many assume the exact opposite.
Click to expand...
To the part I put in red, this is why I specifically noted my assumption that you did leave in a respectful manner. Now I only wonder which person here posting about how someone left in the middle of the homily and didn’t come back is referring to you 😛 (and I mean that entirely jokingly!)

As to the view of talents, it’s a parable… the literal meaning is money, certainly. However, parables are metaphors, and the metaphor here (money) refers to so much more than money… in fact, generally speaking, the parable is refering to our time, talent, and treasure being used to (in terms of the parable) “grow the business” (just as the master in the story is asking his servants who manage his money to “grow his business”). I’m reasonably certain the deacon would have gotten to that point, but who knows? 🤷

At any rate, a homily can include dialogue from the people such as a question and answer (I know, that surprised me too) as long as it is reasonable and remains clear who is, in fact, giving the homily.
 
promethius said:
To the part I put in red, this is why I specifically noted my assumption that you did leave in a respectful manner. Now I only wonder which person here posting about how someone left in the middle of the homily and didn’t come back is referring to you 😛 (and I mean that entirely jokingly!)

As to the view of talents, it’s a parable… the literal meaning is money, certainly. However, parables are metaphors, and the metaphor here (money) refers to so much more than money… in fact, generally speaking, the parable is refering to our time, talent, and treasure being used to (in terms of the parable) “grow the business” (just as the master in the story is asking his servants who manage his money to “grow his business”). I’m reasonably certain the deacon would have gotten to that point, but who knows? 🤷

At any rate, a homily can include dialogue from the people such as a question and answer (I know, that surprised me too) as long as it is reasonable and remains clear who is, in fact, giving the homily.
Click to expand...
I observed that once and it was perfect - and perfectly beautiful.
The pastor was celebrating a First Communion Mass and my older
niece was among the communicants. He chose to discuss “bread,”
the staff of life with the children. No one left the pew to answer him
and the answers were awesome. Favorite among the many attending
was the answer to

“What bread do you eat the most often?”
Child said: “Generic.”

The pastor went on to explain how very special
the Holy Eucharist is for everyone.

That was the ONE time I witnessed an interactive homily.
The year was 1978 or 1979. No way do I believe that such
are regular events in most parishes in this nation.

As fall fox emphasized (Post # 16)
  • what I witnessed was unusual.
    He and I might have a similar frame of reference;
    he was born in 1944 and I was born in 1945.
We’re talking long years of memories.
 
catharina said:
I observed that once and it was perfect - and perfectly beautiful.
The pastor was celebrating a First Communion Mass and my older
niece was among the communicants. He chose to discuss “bread,”
the staff of life with the children. No one left the pew to answer him
and the answers were awesome. Favorite among the many attending
was the answer to

“What bread do you eat the most often?”
Child said: “Generic.”

The pastor went on to explain how very special
the Holy Eucharist is for everyone.

That was the ONE time I witnessed an interactive homily.
The year was 1978 or 1979. No way do I believe that such
are regular events in most parishes in this nation.

As fall fox emphasized (Post # 16)
  • what I witnessed was unusual.
    He and I might have a similar frame of reference;
    he was born in 1944 and I was born in 1945.
We’re talking long years of memories.
Click to expand...
I’m not denying that what you saw was unusual. I’m merely stating that it’s not unacceptable (granted I don’t know the specifics of EXACTLY what was said and when). What is usual is not always acceptable, and what is acceptable is not always usual… a prime example of this is holding hands during the “Our Father” … I remember being shocked that this very “usual” practice was not acceptable.

In other words, don’t rely on your memory as a determining factor in what is allowable vs. abusive at mass. There is documentation for that which can be used to objectively (and charitably) determine what is acceptable.
 
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