Did Jeff Sessions make illegal border crossings a sin?

[JourneyForTruth]

the Church sanctions acting against unjust laws.

I agree with OTJM your article did not say immigration, just some old cities and gov a long time ago. We now have America based on the bible and it’s law are the common good and should be respected. Here is a paragraph from your article.

When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the law of the gospel. (2242)

That’s right still not refuse what is demanded. Obey Caesar!

 

[JourneyForTruth]

Do you not remember that Jesus and His family were refugees?

No they were not they were obeying a census according to the laws of the land.

So says Father Rutler, “And it is close to blasphemy to invoke the Holy Family as antinomian refugees, for they went to Bethlehem in obedience to a civil decree requiring tax registration, and they violated no statutes when they sought protection in Egypt.”
https://www.lifezette.com/faithzette/illegal-immigration-not-religious-issue/

 

[blackforest]

I agree with OTJM your article did not say immigration, just some old cities and gov a long time ago.

Are you referring to Fr. Pavone’s article? Immigration may not have been a cited example, but the principles are certainly applicable to this issue. The USCCB agrees that our current status quo is unjust, or they wouldn’t be pressing to change it.

We now have America based on the bible

America’s based on the Bible? This is not a theocracy. And while our founders espoused some Judaeo-Christian principles, they were largely deist and not Christian. They certainly weren’t Roman Catholic. I’d say that currently, we have a lot of laws not based on the Bible, including an immigration law that violates our faith tenet of welcoming the stranger.

That’s right still not refuse what is demanded. Obey Caesar!

While I appreciate Fr. Pavone’s paraphrasing, let’s see what that portion of the Catechism actually says.

2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” “We must obey God rather than men”:

Or, rather, we must obey God rather than Jeff Sessions.

 

[blackforest]

So says Father Rutler, “And it is close to blasphemy to invoke the Holy Family as antinomian refugees, for they went to Bethlehem in obedience to a civil decree requiring tax registration, and they violated no statutes when they sought protection in Egypt.”

His Holiness was blaspheming?

Yikes.

You didn’t answer my questions above. If Egypt had the same restrictive immigration laws as the U.S., would Mary and Joseph had been sinners? Would God have commanded them to stay behind for his Son to be slaughtered?

 

[guanophore]

Most just come to be with illegal families that already crossed the border and take up benefits.

What benefits are those?

No they were not they were obeying a census according to the laws of the land.

Matthew 2:13 [ The Escape to Egypt ] Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there till I tell you; for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.”

If Herod wanted Jesus, and Jesus’ family ran from Herod, were they not disobeying the lawful authority?

Ridiculous comparison. This is a punitive measure designed to make undocumented immigrants suffer by splitting up the families upon arrest. You don’t take children into custody if their dad robs a bank.

On the contrary, this happens every day!

 

[otjm]

The clergy is not of one mind on the matters of immigration; and some are quick to speak as if there were open borders and only that would be moral. And I have yet to see a cohesive plan put forward

There are limits to how many people from any country we can take in - whether they become citizens or green card holders; and part of that limiting factor is job availability. We have had a skewed welfare system for decades, and I see no moral compunction to increase that. Further, the majority, if not the vast majority of those seeking to come to the US do so because they want work, not welfare. The job market has tightened up significantly, but what employers need are skilled and semi-skilled workers; those with no skills are going to be competing for the entry level jobs which do not and cannot provide, in many areas, a working wage.

The liberals think they can rectify that by simply jacking up minimum wage; but they for the largest part have never run a business, and perceive small business owners as “fat cats” - far from the truth. Europe has already moved through that and for many of the minimal skill jobs has moved to robotics; and the move is starting here - with the attendant job opening reductions.

I am all for comprehensive immigration reform too; but it is at best difficult to get that conversation going. We also need to clean up the “under the counter” employment of illegals; it not only skews business but it also impacts the legals who are often on a nearly equal footing for jobs.

And I find the Democratic Party to be hippocritcal, to be polite about the matter. I support the DACA change that Trump proposed - offering amnesty to better than twice as many as the Democrats allegedly wanted, and they walked - apparently on the border wall. I also firmly support the border wall - M18, MS 13, Los Zetas and the Latin Kings are not just a bunch of delinquent teenagers… Nor, as porous as our border is, do I want to see non-Hispanic individuals trying to sneak in, as has been the case.

 

[runningdude]

Fleeing persecution is not a sin. Seeking asylum is not sin. Crossing a national border is not a sin.

Taking someone you have no right to take is a sin. Crossing a border illegally and not presenting your case for asylum if so required by the host would be a sin. Again, severity can mitigate the guilt of the sin.

As I said, and you have conveniently not addressed, sin is caused by the nature of an act. Abortion is inheritantly evil. Screaming “abortion!” is not relevant to a discussion about illegal immigration.

 

[JourneyForTruth]

Again, severity can mitigate the guilt of the sin.

So I guess because your children are hungry you can rob a bank and then justify the sin by saying we had a need. True the judge will take that into consideration but he will first look at things like how did you get to that point, what other resources did you try, did you ask for help the right way.

 

[JourneyForTruth]

Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience

Immigration is not contrary to upright conscience even the Vatican has walls and Swiss guards. Try jumping that border is see what the Swiss guards do.

 

[JourneyForTruth]

If Egypt had the same restrictive immigration laws as the U.S., would Mary and Joseph had been sinners?

God would have not sent them or made sure there was some authority to grant them permission. God does not do evil. LIke when Jesus sent the apostles to prepare a room for the Passover he made sure there was someone there to show them that room. They did not bust into someone house and take over. Luke 22:8 “Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.””

 

[JourneyForTruth]

were they not disobeying the lawful authority?

no Egypt did not have immigration laws or Mary paid the fees or did the application but she went through legal ports of entry.

 

[JourneyForTruth]

be with illegal families that already crossed the border and take up benefits.

welfare, schools, health care etc

 

[runningdude]

If you break the law, you are still liable for any just temporal penalty. Mitigating the guilt of sin only applies to the impact of the sin on your eternal salvation.

 

[blackforest]

Attempting to compare the Vatican to, say, the entire state of Texas isn’t an analogy that’s going to hold. Let’s drop that one already.

I would argue that the corruption and labor exploitation making people desperate enough to risk their lives to leave Mexico borders on or perhaps is mortal sin. Why not focus your moral outrage in that direction, instead? Just World Theory should not have a place in this discussion.

 

[blackforest]

The clergy is not of one mind on the matters of immigration

This is more or less the point that I keep trying to make to @JourneyForTruth, who upthread admonished me for disagreeing with a priest who called undocumented immigrants sinners. Church clergy is, indeed, quite divided on this issue.

And I have yet to see a cohesive plan put forward

I linked to the USCCB’s proposal for just immigration reform. Where did you find it lacking?

There are limits to how many people from any country we can take in - whether they become citizens or green card holders; and part of that limiting factor is job availability.

Rest assured, there are plenty of unfilled jobs for low-skill workers. Georgia's Harsh Immigration Law Costs Millions in Unharvested Crops - The Atlantic

Further, the majority, if not the vast majority of those seeking to come to the US do so because they want work, not welfare.

Exactly. The Lazy Mexican narrative fails in so many ways. The working poor, including immigrants, unfortunately often end up with work AND welfare.

What I keep trying to explain to conservatives, (including my dear family members), is that people need money for shelter, food, and bills. This money has to come from somewhere. Say what you will about minimum wage. But if not enough money comes from the employer, it will necessarily come from the taxpayer. It’s as simple as that.

When is comes to welfare mooching, conservatives really need to be shifting the blame to its proper place. Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

but they for the largest part have never run a business, and perceive small business owners as “fat cats” - far from the truth.

I’m really sympathetic to small businesses. I consider them the backbone of a healthy economy and the archetype of the capitalism that Adam Smith had in mind.

As far as the large, tax-evading, welfare-mooching corporations, I have a lot less sympathy. They can afford to pay their employees a living wage.

We also need to clean up the “under the counter” employment of illegals; it not only skews business but it also impacts the legals who are often on a nearly equal footing for jobs.

First of all, you can obviously speak however you wish, but it isn’t kind, accurate, or or reflective of Catholic teachingto call someone an “illegal.” “Undocumented” is more specific to the civil statute being violated.

Second, I trust that a just path to citizenship will clear up the problem of under-the-counter wages. It will also guarantee better working conditions for immigrants.

 

[JourneyForTruth]

Attempting to compare the Vatican to, say, the entire state of Texas isn’t an analogy that’s going to hold.

Maybe this will help

Since none at all are accepted, one begins to see a bit of a credibility problem. Namely, why should the Catholic hierarchy ask the United States to do (i.e., accept huge numbers of immigrants and refugees) what its own little country will not?

Perhaps the Vatican would argue that even 8.7 persons a year would eventually overwhelm its resources. In 50 years, after all, that would amount to 435 additional citizens, plus all their offspring. Accounting for the relatively high birthrates of refugee families, 50 years might well see a doubling of Vatican City’s population.

Too much of a burden? Exactly. Vatican City will never have more acreage, but neither will New York.

How Many Immigrants Does Vatican City Take?

 

[blackforest]

No, this doesn’t help. At all. But it’s helpful to know where you’re getting your talking points. Does Vatican City have more open positions in agriculture than available workers? http://fortune.com/2017/08/08/immigration-worker-shortage-rotting-crops/

 

[BarreandBark]

I’m not for ILLEGAL immigration but I think saying it’s a sin is pushing it. If it is, then all the (white) American citizens overstaying in different countries, panhandling and or pushing their weight around locals are sinners. Boo-hoo.

 

[JourneyForTruth]

American citizens overstaying in different countries, panhandling and or pushing their weight around locals are sinners

True, in some cities you get arrested for panhandling, over staying your visa, and arrested for bribery.

 

[guanophore]

JourneyForTruth:

no Egypt did not have immigration laws or Mary paid the fees or did the application but she went through legal ports of entry.

I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about the Holy Family fleeing from the jurisdiction of Herod… He was the lawful authority, and was looking for them, and they hid, and fled.