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pauliztarza
Guest
I want opinion of Forum on this important fact.
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paidion
Guest
Because the Temple no longer exists, it is impossible to properly perform any sort of sacrifices - in terms of those prescribed in the Levitical code.
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sterryfamily
Guest
The Old Testament prefigures the new. The people of God are being prepared for the sacraments of the New Covenant. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament promises and sacrifices.
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pauliztarza
Guest
Why then, did the Roman Catholic Church copy Jewish service and exchange bread for animals in abolished tabernacle ?
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mercygate
Guest
Catholics believe that the Sacrifice of the Cross is the ultimate Sacrifice. Had Jews accepted Christ, Temple worshp and its animal sacrifices would have ended
But Jesus personally did not abolish the practice for the Jews. The Romans did that when they razed Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D.
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sterryfamily
Guest
They didn’t, silly. They were following Jesus’ commands as handed to us by the apostles.
“Eat my body” “Drink my blood”
“Abolished tabernacle”? …what on earth do you mean?
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puzzleannie
Guest
the Romans abolished Jewish sacrifice when they destroyed the Temple in 70 AD
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Antithesis
Guest
Yes Christians did borrow a lot from a jewish ceremony and tradition. Yet remember in the begging all the Christians were Jews so this makes perfect sense.
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pauliztarza
Guest
Well, what I mean is : After God sacrificed Jesus, all other sacrifices - including animals, flowers, chanting, bread - are not accepted by Him any more.
And people keep sacrifiicng - to no avail. LIke in the mass. You have the altar - sacrificial tool. Tabernacle - place where sacrifice is kept. That is not accepted by God anymore.
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mercygate
Guest
This is a common belief (often more like an accusation) of non-Catholics.
We do not “copy” Jewish sacrifices; Christ has fulfilled them in his One Perfect Sacrifice. Jesus gave us bread transformed into His Body by the power of the Holy Spirit.
The Sacrifice of the Mass is the mystical participation in the once-for-all sacrifice of Calvary.
Since the furnishings of the Tabernacle in the wilderness and the Temple at Jerusalem all point to aspects of the Person of Jesus Christ, we retain many of them to show that Christ is the fulfillment of all the Covenants between God and Israel.
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paidion
Guest
I cannot speak as to why RCs somewhat copied some of the Jewish practices other than that Christianity derives much from Judaism.
But as for Jews, they can no longer perform any sacrifices because there is no Temple. This is also why many Jews do not eat lamb for Passover anymore, because there is no way to properly slaughter the lamb.
(I say many Jews, because I cannot speak for every Jewish person. If they do have lamb, they cannot possibly be following the Levitical code.)
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mercygate
Guest
The Mass is not a multiplication of individual sacrifices. It is a participation in the One Perfect Sacrifice of Calvary. In the Mass we are united with Christ in his offering of Himself to the Father. His Sacrifice, limited in time and space at Calvary, is eternal and outside of time in Heaven (see Revelation and the Lamb “standing as though it had been slain”).
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Sacrificial laws were given before any Temples existed so they aren’t abolished, they just aren’t observed.
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ralphinal
Guest
You had me for a second. I actually thought this was a legitimate question and not an attempt to try to refute Catholic beliefs.
FoA is correct that the system predates the temple. After the Temple was destroyed, the Jewish faith moved into the rabinical system that they have today.
Even if you do not accept the Real Presence as the Catholic Church teaches, please do not deny that Jesus HIMSELF told us to perform this sacrifice in memory of him. If you have an issue with the Lord’s Supper, please discuss it with Jesus.
As others have posted, Christians were origionally a sect of the Jewish Faith. Why would we not have a similar service?
FoA is correct that the system predates the temple. After the Temple was destroyed, the Jewish faith moved into the rabinical system that they have today.
Even if you do not accept the Real Presence as the Catholic Church teaches, please do not deny that Jesus HIMSELF told us to perform this sacrifice in memory of him. If you have an issue with the Lord’s Supper, please discuss it with Jesus.
As others have posted, Christians were origionally a sect of the Jewish Faith. Why would we not have a similar service?
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The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
Our Eucharist(Greek for thanks-giving) is the fulfillment of the Jewish Todah(which in Hebrew also means thank offering).
Ask any Rabbi and they will tell you that in the coming Messianic age all other sacrifices will cease except the todah sacrifice.
It is an offering of thanksgiving for deliverance. Recall the offering of Melchizedek in Genesis 14:18 And Mel-chiz’edek king of Salem brought out bread and wine…)
The book of Hebrews makes it clear that this “King of Salem” (King of Peace) prefigured Jesus.
This offering of bread and wine continued when the Lord delivered Israel from Egypt and established the Old Covenant. "And you shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always.(Ex 25:30) This was the bread that “it was lawful only for the priests to eat.” (Mat 12:4)
The bread and wine at the end of the Last Supper was a todah meal. All the apostles, all of them faithful Jews, knew exactly what Christ was doing when He said the blessings over the bread and wine.
Once enlightened by the Holy Spirit the Apostles immediately recognized the connection between Jesus as the Lamb of God, the Passover, the todah, and the wedding feast imagery that Christ used to portray His Church.
See Acts 6:2-4: the apostles appoint men to “serve at tables.”
(1Cor 10:16-17, 1Cor 11:23-29, Rev 19:9)
It is the “one pure offering” foretold of by the prophet Malachi.
Mal 1:11 “For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.”
God the Father willed to identify the sacrifice of His Son with this meal of deliverance, also with the marriage feast in John’s Apocalypse.
This is what happens in the Mass: all times and all Christians, those in heaven and on earth, are brought to Jesus- His marriage feast, His throne, His sacrifice on Calvary. His is the one sacrifice for all times and for all people. In the Eucharist He invites us to unite ourselves to Him, to unite our sacrifice to His. In partaking in the Eucharist we become one Body and One Blood with Jesus. His offering of Himself makes our offering possible.
(See Gen 2:23; 2Sam 5:1 & 19:12-13)
God the Father offered His Son for us and for our salvation. In thanksgiving with the help of Christ-our one true High Priest-we are now capable of offering ourselves to the Father through Christ’s blood wholly and without blemish.
John 6:
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”
Ask any Rabbi and they will tell you that in the coming Messianic age all other sacrifices will cease except the todah sacrifice.
It is an offering of thanksgiving for deliverance. Recall the offering of Melchizedek in Genesis 14:18 And Mel-chiz’edek king of Salem brought out bread and wine…)
The book of Hebrews makes it clear that this “King of Salem” (King of Peace) prefigured Jesus.
This offering of bread and wine continued when the Lord delivered Israel from Egypt and established the Old Covenant. "And you shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always.(Ex 25:30) This was the bread that “it was lawful only for the priests to eat.” (Mat 12:4)
The bread and wine at the end of the Last Supper was a todah meal. All the apostles, all of them faithful Jews, knew exactly what Christ was doing when He said the blessings over the bread and wine.
Once enlightened by the Holy Spirit the Apostles immediately recognized the connection between Jesus as the Lamb of God, the Passover, the todah, and the wedding feast imagery that Christ used to portray His Church.
See Acts 6:2-4: the apostles appoint men to “serve at tables.”
(1Cor 10:16-17, 1Cor 11:23-29, Rev 19:9)
It is the “one pure offering” foretold of by the prophet Malachi.
Mal 1:11 “For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.”
God the Father willed to identify the sacrifice of His Son with this meal of deliverance, also with the marriage feast in John’s Apocalypse.
This is what happens in the Mass: all times and all Christians, those in heaven and on earth, are brought to Jesus- His marriage feast, His throne, His sacrifice on Calvary. His is the one sacrifice for all times and for all people. In the Eucharist He invites us to unite ourselves to Him, to unite our sacrifice to His. In partaking in the Eucharist we become one Body and One Blood with Jesus. His offering of Himself makes our offering possible.
(See Gen 2:23; 2Sam 5:1 & 19:12-13)
God the Father offered His Son for us and for our salvation. In thanksgiving with the help of Christ-our one true High Priest-we are now capable of offering ourselves to the Father through Christ’s blood wholly and without blemish.
John 6:
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”
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Valke2
Guest
In my opinion, no. Jesus didn’t have the authority nor inclincation to abolish sacrifices.
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Valke2
Guest
They were originally to be performed in the Tent of Meeting, but that was replaced by the Temple. The point being that there was only one place in which sacrifices were acceptable. After the destruction of the Temple, there has yet to be an acceptable place (a rebuilt Temple).
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Why not another tent? I think the point is, Jews say sacrifice and atonement through a priest is not abolished forever yet, so it’s just a guess that they are receiving atonement without it right now. You assume they are just through prayer, but you don’t really know, right?
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Fascinating, V2! Do you think there are enough Jewish people who are of the mindset to begin animal sacrifices again? I mean, do you think this would be a possibility if some treaty with Muslims allowed them to rebuild the Jewish Temple next to the Mosque that now stands where the Temple once stood?
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Valke2
Guest
There are certainly enough Jews willing and looking forward to continuing sacrifices. Some like me believe we are no longer obligated to continue sacrifices, even when the Temple is restored. What a lot of people don’t realize is that any time one wanted to eat meat, unless it was meat that they hunted, they had to bring the animal to be sacrificed. There was no concept of “butcher” in Leviticus and there’s an express prohibition against slaughtering animals anywhere than in front of the Tent of Meeting.
It seems to me that the ritual of sacrifice was meant to enforce the new revelation of monotheism/God. One God meant one place to offer sacrifices (factiod: the Hebrew word for place “Makor” is also one of God’s names). SInce we believe the TEmple will be rebuilt in Messianic times, a time in which the whole world will acknowledge and know God, the goal of sacrifices seems to be or will already have been achieved.
But I could be wrong.
It seems to me that the ritual of sacrifice was meant to enforce the new revelation of monotheism/God. One God meant one place to offer sacrifices (factiod: the Hebrew word for place “Makor” is also one of God’s names). SInce we believe the TEmple will be rebuilt in Messianic times, a time in which the whole world will acknowledge and know God, the goal of sacrifices seems to be or will already have been achieved.
But I could be wrong.
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