Did Jesus abolish Jewish sacrifice ?

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Paul,
You’re very well intentioned, but also quite wrong on many issues. The sacrafice of the mass is the exact same sacrafice Christ made on Calvary. Christ is not RE-SACRAFICED, rather, that sacrafice once and for all is made present. We do this because JESUS SAID TO DO IT! That’s pretty good authority for me. Christ said, THIS IS MY BODY…THIS IS MY BLOOD, and I believe him.

As to no longer sinning after accepting Christ, well, that’s just poppycock. It flies in the face of scriptures and Church doctrine.

Yes, one of us has believed the wrong authority…you seem to trust in the authority of your personal interpretation of scriptures.
 
mercygate said:
**“Versus?” **Jesus Himself took bread and said “this is my body.” In Christ, there is no versus. The form of bread remains, but the reality of Christ overtakes it, subsumes it. The entire Passion is present in it. There is no “versus” – there is only the promise of Christ.

Since Jesus said it, WE believe it. We absolutely “do this” in remembrance of Him.

Apparently, it is not “clear as a summer sunshine day” to you.

Only to a spiritually dead, post-“enlightenment”, totally rationalist, materialist, earth-bound world is the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist a false belief.

You have made that quite clear.

Now you’re headed toward some millennialist tangent that has nothing to do with this thread.
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Is necklace the boy ? Boy departing tells his girl :“Take this necklace. This is me.”

Is she to treat the NECKLACE as it is the real person ?

Of course not. And how can you possibly know what Jesus meant? You believed some authority, someone’s example.

Man, if you kneel towards the tabernacle - and you do each time you enter the church building - you are kneeling towards man-made idol.

That don’t even put you in the old testament, because even Jews knew Jahweh hates idols.

Moreover, if you believe bread is Christ Himself - which you do - you are denying His sacrifice on the cross. Not recognizing it, not worshipping it, but denying it.
 
Yerusalyim said:
Paul,
You’re very well intentioned, but also quite wrong on many issues. The sacrafice of the mass is the exact same sacrafice Christ made on Calvary. Christ is not RE-SACRAFICED, rather, that sacrafice once and for all is made present. We do this because JESUS SAID TO DO IT! That’s pretty good authority for me. Christ said, THIS IS MY BODY…THIS IS MY BLOOD, and I believe him.

As to no longer sinning after accepting Christ, well, that’s just poppycock. It flies in the face of scriptures and Church doctrine.

Yes, one of us has believed the wrong authority…you seem to trust in the authority of your personal interpretation of scriptures.
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“The sacrafice of the mass is the exact same sacrafice Christ made on Calvary”

Really ? Same blood ? Same body ?

Well if you can have the priest sacrifice “Jesus” why would He need to come down from Heaven and die ? He could have just told Israel to keep performing old sacrifices. BUT HE DID NOT. HE TOOK THE BODY AND NAILED IT TO THE CROSS.

And that is not the same thing. Those are two opposite and irreconcilable things. Bread sacrifice and sacrifice of Jesus.
 
MH84 said:
Why don’t you agree that St. Paul was talking about the Eucharist in 1 Corinthians 10? What is the one bread that the followers of Christ all partake of?
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Paul doesn’t mention bread in that verse :

1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there
be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined
together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Maybe you meant some other line from I Corinthians 10 :

10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice,
they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that
ye should have fellowship with devils.
10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of
devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the
table of devils.
 
pauliztarza said:
Paul doesn’t mention bread in that verse :

1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there
be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined
together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Maybe you meant some other line from I Corinthians 10 :

10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice,
they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that
ye should have fellowship with devils.
10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of
devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the
table of devils.
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Please don’t play games. You know what I meant. I have asked you about it many times already.

I was talking about 1 Corinthians 10:16-17.

Answer my points in #30

We are all still waiting. You said earlier that you were about to find the answer. That was about 8 hrs ago. 😃
 
Hi pauliztarza,

Suppose in the time of Moses and the first Passover, that the Israelites being held captive in Egypt thought that a real lamb didn’t have to be sacrificed. Suppose they were vegetarians and ate “lamb cookies” instead.

It’s not symbolism. And the last supper was not a romantic dinner.
 
pauliztarza said:
Paul doesn’t mention bread in that verse :

1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there
be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined
together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Maybe you meant some other line from I Corinthians 10 :

10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice,
they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that
ye should have fellowship with devils.
10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of
devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the
table of devils.
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Allright fellas, cards on the deck. Here is my authority :

26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed
it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take,
eat; this is my body.
26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to
them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is
shed for many for the remission of sins.
26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this
fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you
in my Father’s kingdom.
26:30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into
the mount of Olives.

(Matthew)

I also take the bread and wine, BUT NOT AS A SACRIFICE.

I respect your opinion, but it is just inconceivable how one event is interpreted differently.

God’s bless.
 
pauliztarza said:
… I also take the bread and wine, BUT NOT AS A SACRIFICE.

I respect your opinion, but it is just inconceivable how one event is interpreted differently.

God’s bless.
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I hope you recognise that in the first 1,500 years of the church, the one event was not interpreted differently - not even by Martin Luther.
 
MH84 said:
Please don’t play games. You know what I meant. I have asked you about it many times already.

I was talking about 1 Corinthians 10:16-17.

Answer my points in #30

We are all still waiting. You said earlier that you were about to find the answer. That was about 8 hrs ago. 😃
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Here is your line in full context and I wasn’t playing games:

10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion
of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is
it not the communion of the body of Christ?
10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for
we are all partakers of that one bread.
10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of
the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
10:19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that
which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice,
they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that
ye should have fellowship with devils.

And yes, Paul is affirming the communion. He is not saying bread is the body.
 
MH84 said:
Can you explain what you mean by this?
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Paul is affirming exactly the point I have hardships to explain :

Line 14 First Corinthians 10th chapter : “Flee from idolatry”
And then, lines 15 to 22 :

Bread of the Lord and wine of the Lord are not the same as sacrificed food !

That is exactly the point.

And that is what I mean : beware those who perform sacrifices and invite you to eat remnants from the altar.

Again :

10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
10:15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion
of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is
it not the communion of the body of Christ?
10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for
we are all partakers of that one bread.
10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of
the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
10:19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that
which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice,
they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that
ye should have fellowship with devils.
10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of
devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the
table of devils.

There can’t be altar in Lord’s supper because Jesus made cross the altar !

There can’t be tabernacle either.

All abolished and New Testament created.
 
pauliztarza said:
Is necklace the boy ? Boy departing tells his girl :“Take this necklace. This is me.”

Is she to treat the NECKLACE as it is the real person ?

Of course not.
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The analogy in no way relates to the Eucharist. I begin to understand your problem with this concept if this is how you express it.
And how can you possibly know what Jesus meant? You believed some authority, someone’s example.
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I can know what Jesus meant because I know from whom I have received this teaching, and from whom I have received His Word. So yes: I accept the authority of the Church on very solid grounds. The unified testimony of history, sacred Tradition and Scripture present a solid foundation for accepting the teaching of the Church.
Man, if you kneel towards the tabernacle - and you do each time you enter the church building - you are kneeling towards man-made idol.
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I’ll take my chances.
That don’t even put you in the old testament, because even Jews knew Jahweh hates idols.
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EVEN Jews? What do you mean “even”?
Moreover, if you believe bread is Christ Himself - which you do - you are denying His sacrifice on the cross. Not recognizing it, not worshipping it, but denying it.
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We have not said that the “bread” is Christ Himself. Let me repeat that. The bread is not Christ. Christ is present under the form of bread and wine but the bread is no longer substantially present. The only substance present in the elements after the consecration is Christ.

You may not understand the distinction but it IS a distinction and it is absolutely essential for belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

To say that Catholics deny Christ’s sacrifice on the cross and worship a “man made idol” is absurd. It also shows that you have not respectfully considered what has been posted on this thread.
 
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
How am I supposed to know? :confused: You obviously didn’t get that teaching from the early church.
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Well, your master Jesus did all brave things -entered Jewish synagogues for example.Can you do something less brave ? Be of courageous heart and ask disciples of Christ of other denominations, keep your current faith but ask and look them in the eyes : how come they wouldn’t take part at the altar and maybe you do ? Why ? Ask them.
 
MH84 said:
For Pauliztarza:

But why do you have communion then?
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In remembrance. God wants your heart, not outer religious rites. He actually punished Israel for that - Pharisees were all rituals and impure hearts.

Heart : “Love God with all your heart and all your might. That is the greatest of commandments”
 
mercygate said:
The analogy in no way relates to the Eucharist. I begin to understand your problem with this concept if this is how you express it.
I can know what Jesus meant because I know from whom I have received this teaching, and from whom I have received His Word. So yes: I accept the authority of the Church on very solid grounds. The unified testimony of history, sacred Tradition and Scripture present a solid foundation for accepting the teaching of the Church.

I’ll take my chances.
EVEN Jews? What do you mean “even”?

We have not said that the “bread” is Christ Himself. Let me repeat that. The bread is not Christ. Christ is present under the form of bread and wine but the bread is no longer substantially present. The only substance present in the elements after the consecration is Christ.

You may not understand the distinction but it IS a distinction and it is absolutely essential for belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

To say that Catholics deny Christ’s sacrifice on the cross and worship a “man made idol” is absurd. It also shows that you have not respectfully considered what has been posted on this thread.
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I am respectful. Why would I spend so much time at the forum? I never meant something like you said. Jesus forbade me to judge.I am also respectful of your knowledge. But I shall likewise not withold the truth either.
 
pauliztarza said:
In remembrance. God wants your heart, not outer religious rites. He actually punished Israel for that - Pharisees were all rituals and impure hearts.

Heart : “Love God with all your heart and all your might. That is the greatest of commandments”
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But why would God want you to eat ordinary bread and drink grape juice to remember Him and His Passion?
 
MH84 said:
But why would God want you to eat ordinary bread and drink grape juice to remember Him and His Passion?
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Wine and bread. Not grape juice. To remember second Pasha, where anger of the Lord skipped my door. That is why.
 
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