Did Jesus actually say that?

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in reply #11, Ignatius wrote
If you don’t accept the revealed Word of God, then that is really the place to start. Please start a thread on that subject so that we can address it without violating the off-topic rule.
Here we are. I think that’s fair to say that I don’t accept the revealed Word of God. I would put it this way, that when looking at a quote from the Scriptures (in this case Matt 16:18), we can’t really be sure if Jesus actually said it… apart from faith, choosing to believe He said it… here’s looking forward to a fruitful discussion!
 
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in reply #11, Ignatius wrote

Here we are. I think that’s fair to say that I don’t accept the revealed Word of God. I would put it this way, that when looking at a quote from the Scriptures (in this case Matt 16:18), we can’t really be sure if Jesus actually said it… apart from faith, choosing to believe He said it… here’s looking forward to a fruitful discussion!
Can you identify any other teachings by anyone that have been powerful enough to create a subculture that has lasted 2000 years? If Jesus did not say those things, how do you account for the phenomenon?
 
Of course those who accept it accept it on faith – faith that Jesus is God, faith that Matthew is a reliable author, faith that he recorded Jesus’ teaching accurately, etc.

That type of “faith” comes into play whenever reading factual information. Eg. school textbooks - math, history, whatever. You learn it, accept it because you have faith the author is reliable, have faith that the information imparted in his textbook is accurate,…
 
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in reply #11, Ignatius wrote

Here we are. I think that’s fair to say that I don’t accept the revealed Word of God. I would put it this way, that when looking at a quote from the Scriptures (in this case Matt 16:18), we can’t really be sure if Jesus actually said it… apart from faith, choosing to believe He said it… here’s looking forward to a fruitful discussion!
First, let’s look at the verse in question, but in context, rather than as one isolated line.
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Peter and Rock are the same word, more or less, which made it a pun. Remember, Peter was known as Simon early on. Why did his name change? Well…Abram became Abraham, Jacob became Israel, Sarai became Sarah, and later on Saul started using Paul. So there seems to be precedent that when God has picked someone out for a special mission, He renames them. There’s one point in favor of stating Peter was destined for something big. And in fact, he was given the Keys to the Kingdom. Meaning, he got to decide who went to Heaven. That’s some pretty potent stuff.

But we also should look at how the others regarded this saying - the people who would have heard it said. Nothing like an eyewitness. So, how did the other Apostles regard Peter? He was regarded as the Head - the first Pope. Acts 15:16-7 describes the Council of Jerusalem.There was a problem that needed discussion and they took it to Jerusalem, where Peter was at the time.
The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter. After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
This was within about 20 years of Jesus. They accepted Peter as Pope. Human nature being what it is - witness the arguments here about almost anything - if another Apostle thought Peter was full of himself, he would have called him out on it and quite possibly started a rival Christian church.
 
Here we are. I think that’s fair to say that I don’t accept the revealed Word of God. I would put it this way, that when looking at a quote from the Scriptures (in this case Matt 16:18), we can’t really be sure if Jesus actually said it… apart from faith, choosing to believe He said it… here’s looking forward to a fruitful discussion!
So, the question is: How can we be sure that the Bible is the Inspired word of God? Here’s your answer:

Proving Inspiration
catholic.com/library/Proving_Inspiration.asp

The Catholic method of proving the Bible to be inspired is this: The Bible is initially approached as any other ancient work. It is not, at first, presumed to be inspired. From textual criticism we are able to conclude that we have a text the accuracy of which is more certain than the accuracy of any other ancient work.

Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to be—God—or he was crazy. (The one thing we know he could not have been was merely a good man who was not God, since no merely good man would make the claims he made.)

We are able to eliminate the possibility of his being a madman not just from what he said but from what his followers did after his death. Many critics of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection claim that Christ did not truly rise, that his followers took his body from the tomb and then proclaimed him risen from the dead. According to these critics, the resurrection was nothing more than a hoax. Devising a hoax to glorify a friend and mentor is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a hoax, at least not one from which they derive no benefit. Certainly if Christ had not risen, his disciples would not have died horrible deaths affirming the reality and truth of the resurrection. The result of this line of reasoning is that we must conclude that Jesus indeed rose from the dead. Consequently, his claims concerning himself—including his claim to be God—have credibility. He meant what he said and did what he said he would do.

Further, Christ said he would found a Church. Both the Bible (still taken as *merely a historical *book, not yet as an inspired one) and other ancient works attest to the fact that Christ established a Church with the rudiments of what we see in the Catholic Church today—papacy, hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, and teaching authority.

We have thus taken the material and purely historically concluded that Jesus founded the Catholic Church. Because of his Resurrection we have reason to take seriously his claims concerning the Church, including its authority to teach in his name.

This Catholic Church tells us the Bible is inspired, and we can take the Church’s word for it precisely because the Church is infallible. Only after having been told by a properly constituted authority—that is, one established by God to assure us of the truth concerning matters of faith—that the Bible is inspired can we reasonably begin to use it as an inspired book.

A Spiral Argument

Note that this is not a circular argument. We are not basing the inspiration of the Bible on the Church’s infallibility and the Church’s infallibility on the word of an inspired Bible. That indeed would be a circular argument! What we have is really a spiral argument. On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history. From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded. And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired. This is not a circular argument because the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired) is not simply a restatement of its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable), and its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable) is in no way based on the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired). What we have demonstrated is that without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired.

The advantages of the Catholic approach are two: First, the inspiration is really proved, not just “felt.” Second, the main fact behind the proof—the reality of an infallible, teaching Church—leads one naturally to an answer to the problem that troubled the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:30-31): How is one to know which interpretations are correct? The same Church that authenticates the Bible, that attests to its inspiration, is the authority established by Christ to interpret his word.
 
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in reply #11, Ignatius wrote

Here we are. I think that’s fair to say that I don’t accept the revealed Word of God. I would put it this way, that when looking at a quote from the Scriptures (in this case Matt 16:18), we can’t really be sure if Jesus actually said it… apart from faith, choosing to believe He said it… here’s looking forward to a fruitful discussion!
I don’t believe you actually said that. I think someone hacked your site & posted this…😃

People have a **strong tendency to look for evidence that supports what they want **to believe. God asks us to, get over ourselves, and become like little children, willing to look up to God and believe what he has to teach us! His way, not ours!
 
I think his real issue is whether the Bible is historically accurate. My question in return is, Dan, have you read up on the history of where the Bible came from?
 
we can’t really be sure if Jesus actually said it… apart from faith, choosing to believe He said it
Ahh…I know that road…it goes through an ugly gate called Christ myth theory which leads to a very sad place…a place where only heretics dwell…I took a quick look and I’m not going there, thanks.
 
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in reply #11, Ignatius wrote

Here we are. I think that’s fair to say that I don’t accept the revealed Word of God. I would put it this way, that when looking at a quote from the Scriptures (in this case Matt 16:18), we can’t really be sure if Jesus actually said it… apart from faith, choosing to believe He said it… here’s looking forward to a fruitful discussion!
Hi Dan. Good topic! Please explain why you believe Jesus never said this:

"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
 
I think that’s fair to say that I don’t accept the revealed Word of God. I would put it this way, that when looking at a quote from the Scriptures (in this case Matt 16:18), we can’t really be sure if Jesus actually said it… apart from faith, choosing to believe He said it… here’s looking forward to a fruitful discussion!
Faith definitionally is

" confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." [Heb 11:1]

So yes, It’s true what you say, faith is a choice. But 1st it’s a gift from God. Then we choose to accept or reject it.

that’s why “believe” has the following dynamic based on one accepting or rejecting faith.

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible”. stuart chase

That’s not to say faith has no proof.

Jesus is a historical person. He lived died and rose from the dead. Josephus, a 1st century historian, NOT a Christian, so it could be said he had no partisan agenda, said the following in his work (btw I left the footnotes functional)
  1. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
From: Ch 3 V 3
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm

Josephus is not trying to prove anything. He just records people places and events that happened in history.

therefore,

look at the terms Josephus used in that short paragraph


  1. *]“the Christ” btw, that isn’t Jesus last name
    *]if it be lawful to call him a man due to the works he did
    *]taught men who received the truth with pleasure
    *]he was crucified.
    *]appeared again alive after 3 days as the prophets fortold
    *]and 10,000 other things concerning him

    If someone who has no skin in the game can say this about someone he doesn’t even know, isn’t a follower, is it such a stretch to think that his comment about 10,000 other things attributed to Jesus, which Josephus had no interest in writing about, did get written down by the followers of Jesus? And of course we have that record…the bible, which was written by, and for, the Church Jesus started.

    Just something to think about
 
Can you identify any other teachings by anyone that have been powerful enough to create a subculture that has lasted 2000 years?
Confucius comes to mind.
If Jesus did not say those things, how do you account for the phenomenon?
Well, possibly He said some of them… possibly He was a really powerful teacher, and even if the Gospels are, say, just 80% ‘right’, there’s still enough juice there to propel His philosophy forward…

I don’t think I quite understand your response… possibly we are not fully understanding each other yet…
 
Of course those who accept it accept it on faith – faith that Jesus is God, faith that Matthew is a reliable author, faith that he recorded Jesus’ teaching accurately, etc.
That type of “faith” comes into play whenever reading factual information. Eg. school textbooks - math, history, whatever. You learn it, accept it because you have faith the author is reliable, have faith that the information imparted in his textbook is accurate,…
Well, yes, one does use some amount of faith in all those endeavors… I think with a history book, one would want to keep in mind the author’s biases and motivations for writing… with math I think it’s a little different… hopefully the author is showing you how to do something, like a calculation… once you know how to do it, you can test the process out for yourself, so I think things like the author’s biases may not play as large a part…
 
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in reply #11, Ignatius wrote

Here we are. I think that’s fair to say that I don’t accept the revealed Word of God. I would put it this way, that when looking at a quote from the Scriptures (in this case Matt 16:18), we can’t really be sure if Jesus actually said it… apart from faith, choosing to believe He said it… here’s looking forward to a fruitful discussion!
Dan it matters little at all whether Jesus actually said exactly this or the Gospel writer exercised a little poetic freedom. What matters is that the believing community accepted such writings into the Biblical canon and over time continued to interpret/correct and develop such words/theology into the highly refined teachings we have today (and which is still linked to this verse).

We are not Protestants. The Bible is but one (important) expression of the faith of the Church. The “obvious” meaning of the text is only a starting point and the interpreted end point may be significantly different depending on the influence of other expressions of the Church’s faith (e.g. tradition as expressed in teachings of the Early Fathers or the Magisterium)
 
Confucius comes to mind.

Well, possibly He said some of them… possibly He was a really powerful teacher, and even if the Gospels are, say, just 80% ‘right’, there’s still enough juice there to propel His philosophy forward…

I don’t think I quite understand your response… possibly we are not fully understanding each other yet…
You sort of miss the point, here. Christ is not Confucius. Christ said: “I am the truth” and everyone understood, both those who followed Him (and who followed Him for the next 20 centuries) and those who hated Him and wanted Him put to death, that He claimed to be the Son of God, “and thus one with God”.

Either what He said is true, or not. There’s no 80% right, here. Either He resurrected and the fishermen saw Him and went on to change the world, or He did not, and I do not understand why would anyone pay attention to these people (who, according to what is said, even had power to heal people and do other wonderful things in the name of this Christ, and some still do so today, apparently).

Then your next question would be: assuming He said all of that, all right, what about those who wrote down what He said after many years? What about those who had to preserve those writings in the centuries?

Bear with me for a minute, now: I will try to show you how we reason (at least, how I reason). If Christ was who He said He was, namely God incarnate, and thus omnipotent, do you think He’d have allowed His words to be distorted or lost? Do you think He’d have allowed others to add words to His words? Would He not have, say, established a community to teach by words and deeds His teachings, to preserve His teachings in writing, and to discern and condemn any writing that was not authentic?

Finally, I don’t see the parallel between Christianity and Confucianism. The former is a religion, the latter a philosophical system. Those who study that philosophy (including many Christians) have found that it has good teachings that can lead to a better life, as well as errors that can lead to not so good life…as many philosophies of the past have. The gospels, on the other hand, don’t resent of such defect. And ultimately philosophy is one thing, religion another thing.
 
First, let’s look at the verse in question, but in context, rather than as one isolated line.
Sure thing
Quote:
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.* Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Peter and Rock are the same word, more or less, which made it a pun. Remember, Peter was known as Simon early on. Why did his name change? Well…Abram became Abraham, Jacob became Israel, Sarai became Sarah, and later on Saul started using Paul. So there seems to be precedent that when God has picked someone out for a special mission, He renames them. There’s one point in favor of stating Peter was destined for something big. And in fact, he was given the Keys to the Kingdom. Meaning, he got to decide who went to Heaven. That’s some pretty potent stuff.
But we also should look at how the others regarded this saying - the people who would have heard it said. Nothing like an eyewitness. So, how did the other Apostles regard Peter? He was regarded as the Head - the first Pope. Acts 15:16-7 describes the Council of Jerusalem.There was a problem that needed discussion and they took it to Jerusalem, where Peter was at the time.
Quote:
The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter. After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
This was within about 20 years of Jesus. They accepted Peter as Pope.
That’s interesting… I read it differently… Peter contributes, Barnabas and Paul contribute, then James makes the call ‘It is my judgment…’
Human nature being what it is - witness the arguments here about almost anything - if another Apostle thought Peter was full of himself, he would have called him out on it and quite possibly started a rival Christian church.
And perhaps there were rival groups… ‘I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to* Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.”’
 
Too bad there’s like 10 more parts in the Gospels (and I’m probably falling short of the real number) in which the Lord singles out Peter (or in which Peter, by his action, appears to be the leader of the group) 🤷

Anyways if the petrine primacy is confusing, there are a few centuries of studies out there, and at least I have only read like a few books on the topic, so you won’t find the answer you need until you start digging the library of sacred tradition 🙂 The Catholic Church does not base the papacy on one line of the Gospel 🙂
 
Page wouldn’t load for me… should I try again later?
The Catholic method of proving the Bible to be inspired is this: The Bible is initially approached as any other ancient work. It is not, at first, presumed to be inspired. From textual criticism we are able to conclude that we have a text the accuracy of which is more certain than the accuracy of any other ancient work.
Right, I’m with you there… the text we have today is pretty much what the authors wrote… the question in my mind is did the authors write what was accurate?
Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.
Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to be—God—or he was crazy. (The one thing we know he could not have been was merely a good man who was not God, since no merely good man would make the claims he made.)
Right, assuming that Jesus did make those claims… I think it’s interesting that the latest-written Gospel - John - contains (imo) the biggest claims… almost like as more time went by, people thought He made bigger and bigger claims
We are able to eliminate the possibility of his being a madman not just from what he said but from what his followers did after his death. Many critics of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection claim that Christ did not truly rise, that his followers took his body from the tomb and then proclaimed him risen from the dead. According to these critics, the resurrection was nothing more than a hoax. Devising a hoax to glorify a friend and mentor is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a hoax, at least not one from which they derive no benefit. Certainly if Christ had not risen, his disciples would not have died horrible deaths affirming the reality and truth of the resurrection. The result of this line of reasoning is that we must conclude that Jesus indeed rose from the dead.
Right, and I agree with that part
Consequently, his claims concerning himself—including his claim to be God—have credibility. He meant what he said and did what he said he would do.
Further, Christ said he would found a Church. Both the Bible (still taken as merely a historical book, not yet as an inspired one) and other ancient works attest to the fact that Christ established a Church with the rudiments of what we see in the Catholic Church today—papacy, hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, and teaching authority.
Not sure if I’m there with you on that part… but I think we should work on the earlier part (Did Jesus actually say that), then we can resolve what you just brought up
We have thus taken the material and purely historically concluded that Jesus founded the Catholic Church.
Great rest-of-post, I’m there with you as far as the logic goes and so on… we’d just have to get together on the above part
 
I don’t believe you actually said that. I think someone hacked your site & posted this…😃
It is possible… what is at stake if it is someone else? Actually, I had this happen on a blog… I was contributing for a while, then stopped… came back a few months later only to find out that “I” had been continuing to post long after I had stopped… 🙂
People have a **strong tendency to look for evidence that supports what they want **to believe. God asks us to, get over ourselves, and become like little children, willing to look up to God and believe what he has to teach us! His way, not ours!
Yes, very much… there are multiple ways claiming to be God’s way, so I think there’s benefit in trying to hash it out
 
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