Did Jesus ask us to worship Him?

[AlanFromWichita]

This is probably about the most difficult question I’ve asked myself, and after years of not mentioning it to anybody, I asked my pastor the other day, and now I’m bringing it to you.

It seems I read, but now can’t find, a scripture that says Jesus came as a servant, and not to be served – or something like that. I’m not sure about this, so don’t hold me to it.

When they called Jesus “good,” He said that only His Father in heaven is Good.
Mark 10:18:

Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? 3 No one is good but God alone.

Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

So He is divine, but why wouldn’t He let them call Him “good?”

Then we have Peter unworthy to have his feet washed by Jesus, but Jesus insists that Peter doesn’t understand. Seems to me Jesus did not want us to worship Him, possibly because He was showing us the way to be and we should not seek admiration from other humans.

Then we have John the Baptist, unworthy to untie Jesus’ sandals – but Jesus didn’t want to be treated above anyone else, and instructed John to proceed.

I got up the courage to ask my pastor, “does the Bible say anywhere that we are to worship Jesus?”

He referred to the desert scene:

At this, Jesus said to him, “Get away, Satan! It is written: ‘The Lord, your God, shall you worship and him alone shall you serve.’”

I had just enough courage to ask one follow up question, “but isn’t He referring to His Father?”

Pastor said, “since Jesus was God, he was in effect referring to Himself.”



I let it go, with “thank you, Father, something to think about I suppose.”

What I thought but didn’t state exactly, that I was hoping he would think about it more and find me a better example, because in one case I see that He is saying only the Father, not He, is to be called “good.” In the other case, He says “God” but now equates to God?

In a prayer, reading, book, somewhere I remember a sentence something like, “He was God, but didn’t consider Himself equal to God.”

I’m not trying to start a fight, and I ask we keep the utmost of respectful tone in this thread. I really want to know. I want to believe that the Church practices what Jesus teaches. I believe it in faith, but I don’t understand it with my mind, and I struggle sometimes with believing in my heart – because my head just won’t quite let this go.

Can anybody help shed some light on this?

Thanks in advance,
Alan

P.S. One other thing that caused me to think of this question in the first place, was when I heard a Presbyterian minister claim that as Jesus rode on the donkey with people praising Him and throwing flowers or whatever, He wept. The minister suggested that Jesus knew by the way they were worshiping Him, that they still hadn’t “gotten the point.” That was before I ever started reading the Bible myself, so I didn’t go study it. It seems I found that reference about Him weeping one time, but now I can’t find it again.

 

[patrick457]

It seems I read, but now can’t find, a scripture that says Jesus came as a servant, and not to be served – or something like that. I’m not sure about this, so don’t hold me to it.

You’re correct! There is a passage like that:

And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

• Mark 10:42-45

In a prayer, reading, book, somewhere I remember a sentence something like, “He was God, but didn’t consider Himself equal to God.”

I think that’s a paraphrase of Philippians 2.

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

P.S. One other thing that caused me to think of this question in the first place, was when I heard a Presbyterian minister claim that as Jesus rode on the donkey with people praising Him and throwing flowers or whatever, He wept. The minister suggested that Jesus knew by the way they were worshiping Him, that they still hadn’t “gotten the point.” That was before I ever started reading the Bible myself, so I didn’t go study it. It seems I found that reference about Him weeping one time, but now I can’t find it again.

And when he had said these things, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. When he drew near to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount that is called Olivet, he sent two of the disciples, saying, “Go into the village in front of you, where on entering you will find a colt tied, on which no one has ever yet sat. Untie it and bring it here. If anyone asks you, ‘Why are you untying it?’ you shall say this: ‘The Lord has need of it.’” So those who were sent went away and found it just as he had told them. And as they were untying the colt, its owners said to them, “Why are you untying the colt?” And they said, “The Lord has need of it.”

And they brought it to Jesus, and throwing their cloaks on the colt, they set Jesus on it. And as he rode along, they spread their cloaks on the road. As he was drawing near—already on the way down the Mount of Olives—the whole multitude of his disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen, saying, “Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” And some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples.” He answered, “I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out.”

And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, "Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation."

Luke 19:28-44

 

[puzzleannie]

read slowly and meditatively over several months the Gospel of John which is all about Jesus’ self manifestation as God and as Messiah. Over and over in his signs, preaching and actions he proclaims himself God, asserts authority belonging only to God, and is condemned to death for claiming to be God.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Patrick,

Thank you for the references. I can’t say how much I’ve wanted to discuss this with somebody, ever since 1985. :tiphat:

Wow.

:crying:

What? :whacky:







:dancing:
Ps 34:9:

Learn to savor how good the LORD is; happy are those who take refuge in him.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

read slowly and meditatively over several months the Gospel of John which is all about Jesus’ self manifestation as God and as Messiah. Over and over in his signs, preaching and actions he proclaims himself God, asserts authority belonging only to God, and is condemned to death for claiming to be God.

Thank you! The very first time I ever read the Bible as a book and not this verse and that, was the book of John. I remember the first impression I got is that Jesus would say things that seemed to make sense, then the disciples would say something and Jesus would “smack them down,” and show them how they had jumped to wrong conclusion, and set them straight in a way they would never have thought of on their own. Then it happened again, and again. I don’t know if it really reads like that, but so long ago when I read it that was my first impression.

Anyway, I will take your suggestions, and savor the words of the book of John both with active reflection and by “resting in God” with silent prayer. :heaven:

Alan

 

[puzzleannie]

did not get a chance to finish
read each account of the Last Supper
do this in memory of me
reads like a command to worship him specifically as well as a command to unite with him in worship of the Father

 

[AlanFromWichita]

And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, "Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation."

Gosh.

I’m not really sure I’m catching this. I can read what it says, and have a few ideas what it may mean, but so far it’s like … it’s doesn’t really resolve or confuse anything for me; it’s just there.

A bit ago when I was in the other room, I was thinking about this thread. My mind was racing around in its “unresolved issue and open guesses” compartment. It was trying all sorts of combinations to see what things it could connect. Kind of like Googling my memory or something.

Anyway, here’s one of the hits. Nobody ever told me this, but I have an idea why we don’t canonize saints until after they are dead. I think it has to do with the effect that being canonized would have on a human being.

For some reason, it feels to me like there is some common thread between the canonization process and worshiping Jesus after He died, as compared to while He was walking on the earth??

Just a thought. That’s about the best I can do for now; gotta go to work. I’ll check back in a few hours.

Alan

 

[JRKH]

Alan,
I think this is a very interesting topic and speaks to some very core things that have been discussed and debated from very early on in the Church.
That is the relationship between the human and divine natures of Christ. The Church has been able to reach certain necessary conclusions but unfortunately we are unable to fully understand how all of these things interact.

One thing that I have noted in the Gospels is Christ’s reference to himself as “The Son of Man”. While I have not really delved into it, this seems to be a rather vague reference that is not fully understood and explained in Church documents.

Anyway - My personal take on the “Son of Man” reference seems to point to his position in time and space, as the human “Jesus”. The Son of Man will suffer, the Son of man will be in the ground for 3 days, the Son of man came to serve not be served…

I may be way off base here but I thought I’d toss it out as something to consider.

Peace
James

 

[dmar198]

In Hebrews 1 it says that when Jesus came into the world, God said, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” And in John 20:28, after the Resurrection, Thomas fell prostrate before Jesus and said, “My Lord and my God!”

Jesus replied blessed are they who believe this without seeing me. To believe in Him in the way that Thomas did, though, is an act of worship.

 

[Liraco]

In Hebrews 1 it says that when Jesus came into the world, God said, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” And in John 20:28, after the Resurrection, Thomas fell prostrate before Jesus and said, “My Lord and my God!”

Jesus replied blessed are they who believe this without seeing me. To believe in Him in the way that Thomas did, though, is an act of worship.

That right there is what you need to meditate on the most.

Indeed, if you think Jesus was truthful and just He would have reprimanded Thomas on the spot when he uttered the words “My Lord and my God!” (remember Lord was also used to refer to God to avoid using His holy name).

Yet what did Jesus do? He accepted it. It would have been a sin on Thomas’ part and on Jesus’ if it wasn’t true.

Remember the transfiguration and especially the last supper. Here we see glimpses of Jesus’ divinity and how He showed us glimpses of what was to come. In the transfiguration we see His glory (yet He had not yet died and risen). In the Eucharist He presents His risen body and blood, yet He had not yet been crucified. Even with Mary, we see Jesus’ death and resurrection sparing her from original sin even though He wasn’t yet conceived so that she would be a fitting mother.

It’s all a great mistery so take it slowly. Don’t think you’ll have it all solved in just a few days of study.

As St. Augustine said, “Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand.”

 

[piejesu]

“Before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58

 

[dsmantz]

Sounds like you might want to invest in a good Catholic study bible, or pick up a decent commentary. I own the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible: New Testament with notes written by Dr. Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch. You simply can’t beat it for a great explanation of Scripture. The resources are out there, you just have to look. Be advised to stay with something you would find at a Catholic book store. While I own several study bibles with slants from Arminianism to Calvanism, if one is not strong in Church doctrine, they could be swayed.

I wish you well along your journey. I was there several years ago, and after serious study was able to figure a lot of it out. Also, there seem to be some pretty well schooled folks around here. I’m sure someone can help you out.

 

[John7]

I don’t think (?) Jesus himself ever asked anyone to worship him outright,
but they did anyway (ie his disciples and the women of Matt 28.9)
The three verses below all happened after the resurrection.
And this worship was given by those who surely knew Ex 20.5,
“You shall not worship them (other gods) or serve them”
they knew that worship was for God alone.

Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they (the women) came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they (some of the disciples) worshipped him: but some doubted.

Luke 24
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

 

[Lion_King_1]

It is our duty to worship the Lord and as the scriptures say, love the Lord with all your mind body and soul. He died so we could live even though we did not deserve it and humbled himself before man, is that not enough?

 

[Evan]

When they called Jesus “good,” He said that only His Father in heaven is Good.

**Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
**

Did Jesus refer to his Father, or to God? He had not yet revealed He was God. What would support your contention would be if the man’s response was “You are God and therefore worthy of praise and adoration” and Jesus denied that we should adore Him.

Look at the greatest prayer of the Church, the Mass. This prayer is directed to the Father. Most of our adoration is of the Father, but all prayer is through the Mediator; the Son.

 

[Curious_Seed]

This is probably about the most difficult question I’ve asked myself, and after years of not mentioning it to anybody, I asked my pastor the other day, and now I’m bringing it to you.

It seems I read, but now can’t find, a scripture that says Jesus came as a servant, and not to be served – or something like that. I’m not sure about this, so don’t hold me to it.

When they called Jesus “good,” He said that only His Father in heaven is Good.

So He is divine, but why wouldn’t He let them call Him “good?”

Then we have Peter unworthy to have his feet washed by Jesus, but Jesus insists that Peter doesn’t understand. Seems to me Jesus did not want us to worship Him, possibly because He was showing us the way to be and we should not seek admiration from other humans.

Then we have John the Baptist, unworthy to untie Jesus’ sandals – but Jesus didn’t want to be treated above anyone else, and instructed John to proceed.

I got up the courage to ask my pastor, “does the Bible say anywhere that we are to worship Jesus?”

He referred to the desert scene:

I had just enough courage to ask one follow up question, “but isn’t He referring to His Father?”

Pastor said, “since Jesus was God, he was in effect referring to Himself.”



I let it go, with “thank you, Father, something to think about I suppose.”

What I thought but didn’t state exactly, that I was hoping he would think about it more and find me a better example, because in one case I see that He is saying only the Father, not He, is to be called “good.” In the other case, He says “God” but now equates to God?

In a prayer, reading, book, somewhere I remember a sentence something like, “He was God, but didn’t consider Himself equal to God.”

I’m not trying to start a fight, and I ask we keep the utmost of respectful tone in this thread. I really want to know. I want to believe that the Church practices what Jesus teaches. I believe it in faith, but I don’t understand it with my mind, and I struggle sometimes with believing in my heart – because my head just won’t quite let this go.

Can anybody help shed some light on this?

Thanks in advance,
Alan

P.S. One other thing that caused me to think of this question in the first place, was when I heard a Presbyterian minister claim that as Jesus rode on the donkey with people praising Him and throwing flowers or whatever, He wept. The minister suggested that Jesus knew by the way they were worshiping Him, that they still hadn’t “gotten the point.” That was before I ever started reading the Bible myself, so I didn’t go study it. It seems I found that reference about Him weeping one time, but now I can’t find it again.

What a wonderful question.

Did Jesus ask us to worship Him?

The direct answer is yes, with Luke 4:8.

However, don’t we find that no command, or suggestion, or otherwise, is even remotely needed.

We love Him, at a place so sweet, that worship is inevitable.

 

[patrick457]

Thank you! The very first time I ever read the Bible as a book and not this verse and that, was the book of John. I remember the first impression I got is that Jesus would say things that seemed to make sense, then the disciples would say something and Jesus would “smack them down,” and show them how they had jumped to wrong conclusion, and set them straight in a way they would never have thought of on their own. Then it happened again, and again. I don’t know if it really reads like that, but so long ago when I read it that was my first impression.

To be frank, John’s Jesus has a rather nasty (?) knack of making His own followers leave Him (and even attempt to kill Him!) with His ‘provocative’ statements. He’s too honest. I mean, you have “I am the bread of life” and “I and the Father are one” and “Before Abraham was, I am”.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

To be frank, John’s Jesus has a rather nasty (?) knack of making His own followers leave Him (and even attempt to kill Him!) with His ‘provocative’ statements. He’s too honest. I mean, you have “I am the bread of life” and “I and the Father are one” and “Before Abraham was, I am”.

When He said “eat My flesh and drink My blood,” do you not think it would horrify people? I think Jesus was a master at shaking people out of their comfort zone, so while they are out he can come in and quick rearrange the furniture before the people get back.

Seriously, what could He have said that would have been that provocative to Catholics, as “eat and drink” was to the Jews? Then he exacerbates the injury when they ask Him to clarify it but He refuses, saying instead that He meant exactly what He said and that if you don’t do what sounds horrific to your religious convictions (even though it’s not – trust me) then you absolutely can’t be a part of me. He couldn’t have told people to sin, but it sure sounded to them like He was.

What if Jesus came into a Catholic Church, as a lay person and not a religious, and say, starting today, all are welcome to receive Communion regardless of mortal sin. Do make your confession, but if you have an honest intent to go soon, then come on to the table. I know your heart is in the right place. In fact, if you share My Body and Blood, it will nourish you even before you get to that confession.

Wouldn’t that be horrible – or at least have some shock value? Isn’t it true that it is considered destructive to knowingly consume the Eucharist when in mortal sin? If Jesus decided to help us “grow in understanding” of the worthiness requirement in this way, would it not throw a lot of people off? I’m guessing if someone says that, he would be seen as anything but Jesus – nobody would really think Jesus would say those things. Would they?

Alan

 

[brb3]

Yes … worship is commanded of us, is mandatory.

The 1st Commandment commands us to worship the Lord [Jesus]. … Matt 22:37 “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all you soul, and with all your mind.”

Also, Luke 17:12-19 And as he entered a village, he was met by ten lepers, who stood at a distance and lifted up their voices and said, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.” When he saw them he said to them, “Go and show yourselves to the priests.” And as they went they were cleansed. Then one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, PRAISING God with a loud voice; and he FELL ON HIS FACE AT JESUS’ FEET, AND GIVING HIM THANKS. Then said Jesus, “Were not ten cleansed? Where are the nine? Was no one found to return and give PRAISE TO GOD except this foreigner?” And he said to him, “Rise and go your way; YOUR FAITH has made you well.”

Also, Luke 7:37-38 And behold, a woman of the city, who was a sinner, when she learned that Jesus was sitting at table in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster flask of ointment, and standing behind him at his feet, WEEPING, SHE BEGAN TO WET HIS FEET WITH HER TEARS, AND WIPED THEM WITH THE HAIR OF HER HEAD, AND KISSED HIS FEET, AND ANOINTED THEM WITH THE OINTMENT. …then, verse 47-50 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for SHE LOVED MUCH; but he who is forgiven little, loves little." … And he said to the woman, “your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Rev 5:13-14 And I heard EVERY CREATURE in heaven AND ON EARTH and in the sea, and all therein, saying, “To him who sits upon the throne and to the LAMB be BLESSING and HONOR and GLORY and MIGHT for ever and ever !” And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the ELDERS FELL DOWN AND WORSHIPED.

So it seems the worship Jesus desires of us is FAITH that leads to OBEDIENCE, PRAISE, AND ACTIONS that flow from Love. Also, performance of our love to fellowman [Second great commandment] … is considered by Jesus as worship to Him.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

For now, I think I have enough examples that I’m catching the drift of what y’all are telling me. I see what you’re saying, and I can’t tell you that it doesn’t make sense.

Still, though, there is something that is still unresolved. I’m not quite sure what it is, but I can’t stop thinking of questions.

As far as whether Jesus asked/commanded us to worship him, at the moment I think I’ll try to put that to the side for a moment. Maybe I’ll raise the issue at a later time, but for now I’ll let all of your comments you took the time to give to me, “cook” a while.

Meanwhile I’m just thinking out loud … if someone tells us that we must love them, or worship them, and in so doing or not doing, we will receive reward or punishment, respectively, then I’m not sure how that works. Concerning our free will, how can we do something (love, worship) we are commanded to do, that only really works if we elect to do it out of our own free will, without bias – that is, threats or bribes. Maybe it’s a “fake it 'till you make it” sort of a thing?

If anyone wants to carry this discussion further, I’m game. For me, I consider the answers I’ve gotten as sufficient to answer my question at this particular time.

Thanks again, everyone… I may also look back on the thread and reread some of the posts, since it is a lot of information for me to take in at one time.

Alan