Did Jesus believe He was serving a greater Being (His Father) than Himself? I see conflicting messages in the Bible.

[MH84]

I look at the following passages and I can’t explain why if Jesus knew He was God the Son, He repeatedly said that He had a God. In the following verses, those words were written down as spoken by Jesus Himself. For some reason when Jesus prayed, the evangelists often say that He prayed to “God” (not “Father” which would support the Trinitarian belief).

Bible references from NIV; www.biblegateway.com I have bolded texts to emphasise the parts of my concern.

Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father

Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

John 4:22
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
He might have included Himself here as those who worship God

John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.
Is Jesus indicating that only His Father is the God of the Jews? Why did Jesus say that the Jews claimed only His Father as their God (even though they didnt believe Jesus was His Son)? After all isnt the Son and the Holy Spirit the Jews’ God as well?

John 14:28
"You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

**John 17:3 **
3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Also, He doesn’t include the Holy Spirit here.

John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

(debatable) Mark 10
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.
If Jesus was indirectly referring to Himself as “God”, it would be the first time in the Gospel of Mark. He does call Himself “I am” in John 8:58, but there is debate as what He meant.

1. What are the apologetics to use to explain these verses?

2. Did the evangelists misinterpret the meaning of Jesus’ words?

3. Is there any room in Catholic doctrine to say that although Jesus was God incarnate, during His ministry He was not fully aware of the extent of His divinity until a later time (e.g. the Ascension)?

Personal suggestion: I know about other verses which indicate Jesus’ divinity such as John 1 and John 8:58. But there is no denying that there are these other verses (listed above) as well. Please don’t start listing other verses which point to or indicate His divinity unless they are needed to explain something specific, because I have seen most of the commonly quoted scriptures and also the title of this thread is about what Jesus said and thought about Himself, not what the Church teaches.

 

[nkelly]

Hello MH84,

Personally, I think everything Jesus said was said in His humanity. He wanted to humble Himself in obedience to the Father. It’s like He supressed His divinity for a time.

 

[MH84]

Hello MH84,

Personally, I think everything Jesus said was said in His humanity. He wanted to humble Himself in obedience to the Father. It’s like He supressed His divinity for a time.

Thanks for your quick response.

The thing is though, the Church teaches that Jesus was fully God and fully man at the same time. She also teaches that Jesus had the Beatific vision while He was on earth as well.

Let’s assume as you say that Jesus “suppressed” His divinity. Firstly, as much as He would suppress it, God cannot stop being God. Secondly, how could God lessen His divinity without ceasing to be God?

However, I think the Church teaches that while Jesus lowered Himelf (taking on a human nature), it doesnt teach that He lowered Himself by “decreasing” His divinity?

Finally, even if Jesus did become less than fully divine, at the end of the day He was still God, and could therefore not have a God.

 

[MH84]

Personally, I think everything Jesus said was said in His humanity. He wanted to humble Himself in obedience to the Father. It’s like He supressed His divinity for a time.

Also I want to add something else based on your post.

Why does Jesus being humble and obedient to His Father mean that He decided to call His Father His “God”?

It would be like me introducing my friend or relative as “my human”.

 

[ForwardProgress]

What about the transfiguration? How many humans have the power to converse with Moses and Elijah? How many other people would God’s voice boom down on and say '“his is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”? How many humans have the power to heal a man born blind and get the whole town talking? How many humans can curse a fig tree, and have it wither up in a few days? Walk on water? Find loads of fish that burst the nets, etc…

 

[nkelly]

Thanks for your quick response.

The thing is though, the Church teaches that Jesus was fully God and fully man at the same time. She also teaches that Jesus had the Beatific vision while He was on earth as well.

Did He have a beatific vision? I didn’t know that.

Let’s assume as you say that Jesus “suppressed” His divinity. Firstly, as much as He would suppress it, God cannot stop being God. Secondly, how could God lessen His divinity without ceasing to be God?

No, it would be impossible for the Son to lessen His divinity. But he could certainly hide it from us and humble Himself humanly.

Phil 2:5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. 8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. 9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: 10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

However, I think the Church teaches that while Jesus lowered Himelf (taking on a human nature), it doesnt teach that He lowered Himself by “decreasing” His divinity?True

Finally, even if Jesus did become less than fully divine, at the end of the day He was still God, and could therefore not have a God.

I think it helps to think of the dual nature of Jesus. He if fully human and fully divine meaning that Jesus had a human soul along side His divine Spirit. So The Holy Trinity would be the God of His human soul.

That’s my understanding anyway.

God bless,
Noel.

 

[MH84]

What about the transfiguration? How many humans have the power to converse with Moses and Elijah? How many other people would God’s voice boom down on and say '“his is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”? How many humans have the power to heal a man born blind and get the whole town talking? How many humans can curse a fig tree, and have it wither up in a few days? Walk on water? Find loads of fish that burst the nets, etc…

1. Did Jesus ever say He had the power Himself to do all that He did, or was did He believe it was the Holy Spirit (God) working through Him?

This may in a way back up what Im saying:

John 5:17-20
18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.

a) This is Jesus talking, its not a narration from the evangelist or the Pharisees speaking.

b) If Jesus knew He was God, why would He have to be shown all He does?

c) The Pharisees were upset because they thought Jesus was claiming to be qual to the Father. But instead of confirming this, He says that “… the Son can do nothing by himself”. However, there He also may be hinting at His divinity when He says, “because whatever the Father does the Son also does.”

This is an example of why Im confused.

1. Elijah raised a child to life. But it was really God working through Elijah.

 

[MH84]

I think it helps to think of the dual nature of Jesus. He if fully human and fully divine meaning that Jesus had a human soul along side His divine Spirit.

You could be on to something here.

But then one has to ask, why was the divine nature present when it was never shown?

Assuming that the divine nature was always present, did Jesus ever show it? Or was all His miracles attributed to God the Father and the Holy Spirit?

Also, did Jesus express (not the best word choice) His human nature and His divine nature at will, alternating between them?

It also seems rather convenient to say that whenever Jesus says something which seems to lower His status, we say that it was the human nature of Jesus talking. But if it is the truth, it is marvellous hear.

Good point, nkelly.

So The Holy Trinity would be the God of His human soul.

Actually, something doesnt sound right with this suggestion. If His human nature was united to His divine in the one Person, doesnt that mean that the nature was fully Jesus’ nature. Why would any nature of Jesus have a God? Don’t both natures belong to the one divine Person?

It also seems strange to say that the humanity in Jesus would worship God.

 

[MH84]

I think it helps to think of the dual nature of Jesus. He if fully human and fully divine meaning that Jesus had a human soul along side His divine Spirit.

I thought of something else…

Does that mean Jesus intentionally withheld His divine powers? because I thought His human will submitted to His Divine will?

 

[nkelly]

But then one has to ask, why was the divine nature present when it was never shown?

The two natures are inseparable.

Assuming that the divine nature was always present, did Jesus ever show it? Or was all His miracles attributed to God the Father and the Holy Spirit?

I don’t think He ever did show His divine nature. How would He express it? I believe the miracles He performed were done in His humanity by the power of God - just like the miracles the apostles performed.

Also, did Jesus express (not the best word choice) His human nature and His divine nature at will, alternating between them?

He couldn’t have revlealed His spirit because it’s invisible but He revealed the power of God through Him.

Actually, something doesnt sound right with this suggestion. If His human nature was united to His divine in the one Person, doesnt that mean that the nature was fully Jesus’ nature. Why would any nature of Jesus have a God? Don’t the both natures belong to the one divine Person?

I’m not sure I understand your question. The second Person of the Holy Trinity didn’t change His divine nature but He took on an additional nature which didn’t affect His divine nature in any way. So Jesus is fully human and fully divine and neither nature is diminished by the union.

It also seems strange to say that the humanity in Jesus would worship God.

It is a bit of a mystery that we’ll never understand while on earth. But remember that Christ had a human soul after the incarnation which was created by God so why couldn’t He worship God?

That’s understandable. I don’t claim to fully understand it either.

 

[MH84]

Why did Jesus say that His Father is the “only true God”? When He said this, the apostles surely didn’t think Jesus was claiming to be God.

 

[nkelly]

Why did Jesus say that His Father is the “only true God”? When He said this, the apostles surely didn’t think Jesus was claiming to be God.

Can you quote the verse please?

 

[MH84]

Can you quote the verse please?

Its in the OP. John 17:3.

 

[nkelly]

Why did Jesus say that His Father is the “only true God”? When He said this, the apostles surely didn’t think Jesus was claiming to be God.

Again I think it goes back to the human side of Jesus praying to His God. There is only one true God composed of three Persons.

 

[ryanoneil]

Why did Jesus say that His Father is the “only true God”? When He said this, the apostles surely didn’t think Jesus was claiming to be God.

Jesus was referencing (Deut 6:4; 32:39) to build off the OT doctrine and explain how he fit into the Trinity. If the apostles didn’t know, Jesus explained it pretty well in the next verses.

Notice in verse 4 and 5 that Jesus asks the Father to glorify (to praise, honor, and give glory) his humanity that it may rise again to participate in the eternal glory that he already possesses in his divinity.

I glorified you on earth by accomplishing the work that you gave me to do. Now glorify me, Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[hilaryisaac]

I thought of something else…

Does that mean Jesus intentionally withheld His divine powers? because I thought His human will submitted to His Divine will?

If Jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time, then anything He says, goes, right? The purpose of His becoming man is to united Himself with humanity, to become one of us. It seems meaningful that God would give His divinity up - and for good reason:

“Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.” - Phil 2:5-7

I would say simply that He was God all that time, and He was human all the same. He simply ‘used’ (if that’s a good word) his human identity. Uniting Himself to us, then, it makes sense that He would pray to the Father, and say other things that put Him ‘in our shoes’ (We know who we worship … No one knows…), right?

 

[cascherman]

This verse is interesting when thinking about what you have brought up:

Philippians 2:6-8
Who (the Son), though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; 5 and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.

Christ gave up his equality with God when he came to earth. He was still God, but he made himself a slave by his own will.

He came here to be a perfect example and do the will of the Father. While he is and was fully God he chose to be a servant, while he was fully man he showed us his servitude by doing the will of our God the Father and his God the Father.

It all exemplifies Christ’s perfect humility.

edit- Oh yeah, the NIV is an imcomplete Bible, as Catholics we should use Catholic approved Bibles.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

This verse is interesting when thinking about what you have brought up:

Christ gave up his equality with God when he came to earth. He was still God, but he made himself a slave by his own will.

Why does Jesus even need to ever be a God if he gave it all up anyway to be fully human? Why not just a regular man to start with who gets all his power from Father God, then after his ascension was elevated to rule like God over us while still serving the God we all serve?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Father is not greater than the Son in power, eternity and greatness, but by the dignity of a grantor or source (click here for more info).

Jesus is God. It’s in His nature. He didn’t become God, nor did He stop being God. But He did become man. (Why Jesus - and not the Father or Holy Spirit - became man has been attributed to a theory called Appropriation. It was words that created the world, and I guess it was appropriate that the Word of God would become man to save the world.)

 

[hilaryisaac]

Why does Jesus even need to ever be a God if he gave it all up anyway to be fully human? Why not just a regular man to start with who gets all his power from Father God, then after his ascension was elevated to rule like God over us while still serving the God we all serve?

I don’t think we can ever ask “why even be a God?” - after all He is eternal God even before anything came in; the only question is “why be human?”. To think that it would have been ‘wasteful’ to give up all His divinity might be precisely the point. God - God! - would be willing to do such a ridiculous thing to show us how much He loves us. Our sins, at least collectively as a human race, had cumulated to such a point that the price was simply too heavy.

I think back to the Ark and the flood, where God renewed the race by flooding, and His promise to never do it again. In the first place, He sent the flood because “The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become” (Gn 6:5). I would think that something AT LEAST similar was at hand. But God kept His promise: “never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth” (Gn 8:11). But something had to be done for our sins. So in His ridiculous love, He decided to pay our debt for us, by becoming one of us.

I hope I make sense.