Did Jesus believe He was serving a greater Being (His Father) than Himself? I see conflicting messages in the Bible.

[FaithofAbraham]

So in His ridiculous love, He decided to pay our debt for us, by becoming one of us.

In my belief Jesus was a regular human who remained obedient to God to the death, and for his obedience he was rewarded with being made Messiah. This King can judge us not guilty if we repent of sin, and that is how Jesus really saves us.

So of course his death was a stepping stone to our salvation, but the real salvation is his righteous judgment over us after he is already risen and made King.

So none of that requires him to be a God to do it, he only had to be obedient the God of us all.

 

[hilaryisaac]

Why did God have to become a man to do that? Why not just forgive the debt.

He became like one of us, that we might believe. If right now, after all the Jesus has done for us, a large part of the world are still unbelievers, what more if He didn’t some down as man? God did not have to become man. But He did - so that we might believe.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

In my belief Jesus was a regular human who remained obedient to God to the death, and for his obedience he was rewarded with being made Messiah…

I’m glad you said “In my belief”, because it is not christian belief.

Jesus was not made Messiah as a reward for His obedience, but rather He was born to be the Messiah. To be Messiah was His mission and he accomplished this mission on the cross.

God became man to unite his divinity and our humanity. As we say in our Maronite Masses…

You have united, O Lord, your Divinity with our Humanity
and Our Humanity with your Divinity
Your Life with our mortality and our mortality with your Life
You have assumed what is ours and given what is yours
For the life and salvation of our souls
To you be glory forever

 

[FaithofAbraham]

He became like one of us, that we might believe. If right now, after all the Jesus has done for us, a large part of the world are still unbelievers, what more if He didn’t some down as man? God did not have to become man. But He did - so that we might believe.

Why couldn’t God just do miracles through Jesus the human so we might believe?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Jesus was not made Messiah as a reward for His obedience, but rather He was born to be the Messiah. To be Messiah was His mission and he accomplished this mission on the cross.

…the Messiah is actually the King who rules over us in a just kingdom free of sin and death and defeats all the enemies of God.

But he could only be Messiah if he first became a martyr who remained obedient to God despite persecution, which is what he accomplished on the cross.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So Jesus was obedient to God to the death, and being perfect in his obedience, he became Messiah who saves those who obey him as their king.

God became man to unite his divinity and our humanity.

Why did God have to do that?

 

[marlo]

if Jesus is not God Himself, he could never be a savior because salvation comes from God Alone, If he is man only, it is impossible for him to mediate with Man and God, as he do not understand what God really is. IF he is not God, what is his difference with other prophet?

Why couldn’t God just do miracles through Jesus the human so we might believe?

 

[hilaryisaac]

Why couldn’t God just do miracles through Jesus the human so we might believe?

It’s never about what God couldn’t do. He is God. There is nothing He “couldn’t” do. He could have saved us in any way He chose to. He chose to do it this way, so all thanks be to God.

I think back to a time when I as a young kid, and in defiance to my parents’ ideas, I always asked, “why can we do it this way” or “why can’t we do it that way”. I was arguing for the sake of arguing. Now, as a (slightly) older man, I can see that in fact, because of their natural position as parents over me, they could have done things differently. But they didn’t. It was their choice. When I become a parent, I will do what I think is best for my children, and I would not worry too much that my children won’t understand my actions - because one day, when they have all grown up, they will.

God is God. Let’s let Him have His say - He chose to become one of us, so be it. I cannot fully grasp why He did it too, mainly because if I were God, I probably wouldn’t have done that. But that’s why I’m not God. Our selfish nature will never fully understand His self-less nature. We are full of ourselves in our hearts; He is full of us in His heart.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Charlie Zeaiter;3471874:

God became man to unite his divinity and our humanity.

Why did God have to do that?

Wow, you ask hard questions. I’ll have a go at this one too.

God united our humanity with his divinity so that we could live forever (with him in heaven). And God had to become man because that is the only way God could offer himself as a sacrifice for our sins.

1 Corinthians 5:7 - … Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

 

[Angelos]

But he could only be Messiah if he first became a martyr who remained obedient to God despite persecution, which is what he accomplished on the cross.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So Jesus was obedient to God to the death, and being perfect in his obedience, he became Messiah who saves those who obey him as their king.

Nowhere in the NT (not even in many apocryphal writings) is Jesus stated to be made the Messiah after His resurrection. Jesus had always been the Son of God and the Messiah prior to His death; this is why His apostles - at their first meeting with Him - exclaimed:

John 1: 48-49 Nathanael saith to him: Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said to him: Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. Nathanael answered him and said: Rabbi: **Thou art the Son of God. Thou art the King of Israel. **

Jesus’ resurrection made Him neither the Son nor the Messiah, but only stood for God the Father’s seal of confirmation and the Messianic declaration to believers in Christ.

You misinterpret Hebrew 5: 8-9. The real concern of that passage is Christ’s comparison with Aaron in terms of priesthood.

The epistle to Hebrews refers to Jesus’ humanity in the light of His incarnation along with the reason for it:

2: 14-15 Therefore because the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner hath been partaker of the same: that, through death, he might destroy him who had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil: And might deliver them, who through the fear of death were all their lifetime subject to servitude.

Why did God have to do that?

The way you pose this question is misleading. We do not claim that God **had to **- or felt obliged - unite His divinity with human nature! God only **chose **to do so out of His love for mankind.

John 3: 16 For** God so loved the world**, as to give his only begotten Son: that whosoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

No one could reveal God to mankind as well as He Himself. This is why God finally chose to come to mankind as a human through the incarnation:

John 1: 18 No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the Bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Peace to all,
Angelos N.B.

 

[Angelos]

Why did Jesus say that His Father is the “only true God”? When He said this, the apostles surely didn’t think Jesus was claiming to be God.

Dear MH84,

Most of the verses you quote from the Gospels ironically imply Jesus’ divinity although at a first glance many readers comprehend and try to prove the opposite.

John 17: 3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus overtly states that belief in God AND in Him gives eternal life. The phrase “the only God” used by Jesus refers to the unity in the Trinity, not to the unity of God as a person.

Mark 13: 32 But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.

Although Jesus does not know that day or hour and the time is only determined by the Father, it is only Jesus the Son, who will come on that day! Nothing against Jesus’ divinity here since Jesus identifies Himself as the Lord of the house a few verses later in the same chapter:

13: 35 Watch ye therefore for you know not when the lord of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cock crowing, or in the morning.

14: 28 You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you. If you loved me you would indeed be glad, because I go to the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

This verse is always used by anti-Trinitarians as evidence for Jesus’ not being equal to God. However, this verse would make no sense if Jesus had not claimed to be God! As it is clear, Jesus says the Father is greater than He only to explain why He is going to the Father. His going to the Father glorifies Jesus and the human nature. Many theologians of old interpreted this verse as an indicator of the Son’s being subordinate to the Father, which has nothing to do with the equal divinity of persons.

Peace to all,
Angelos N.B.

 

[cascherman]

Why does Jesus even need to ever be a God if he gave it all up anyway to be fully human? Why not just a regular man to start with who gets all his power from Father God, then after his ascension was elevated to rule like God over us while still serving the God we all serve?

I’m sure many people would like to know why God wills what he does, that doesn’t give your argument any credit though.

 

[MH84]

Dear MH84,

Most of the verses you quote from the Gospels ironically imply Jesus’ divinity although at a first glance many readers comprehend and try to prove the opposite.

John 17: 3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus overtly states that belief in God AND in Him gives eternal life. The phrase “the only God” used by Jesus refers to the unity in the Trinity, not to the unity of God as a person.

But Jesus says "That they may know thee, the only true God…". Jesus does not say “us”, or even just “That they may know -]thee/-] the only true God”

Mark 13: 32 But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.

Although Jesus does not know that day or hour and the time is only determined by the Father, it is only Jesus the Son, who will come on that day! Nothing against Jesus’ divinity here since Jesus identifies Himself as the Lord of the house a few verses later in the same chapter:

13: 35 Watch ye therefore for you know not when the lord of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cock crowing, or in the morning.

As I have said in other threads, Peter says in Acts 2:36 that Jesus was made both Lord and Christ by God. Thus, it seems that “Lord” does not necessariliy mean “God”.

14: 28 You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you. If you loved me you would indeed be glad, because I go to the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

This verse is always used by anti-Trinitarians as evidence for Jesus’ not being equal to God. However, this verse would make no sense if Jesus had not claimed to be God! As it is clear, Jesus says the Father is greater than He only to explain why He is going to the Father. His going to the Father glorifies Jesus and the human nature. Many theologians of old interpreted this verse as an indicator of the Son’s being subordinate to the Father, which has nothing to do with the equal divinity of persons.

A Catholic cannot believe in subordination of the divine Persons apparently. One would be acknowledging subordinationism. That leaves explaining to still be done about this. Also, I don’t think that anywhere else in the Bible does it say that the after the resurrection and ascension, the Father and the Son were now equal again. In fact read this:

1 Corinthians 15:
27For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

www.biblegateway.com

Peace to all,
Angelos N.B.

 

[MH84]

if Jesus is not God Himself, he could never be a savior because salvation comes from God Alone, If he is man only, it is impossible for him to mediate with Man and God, as he do not understand what God really is. IF he is not God, what is his difference with other prophet?

I know what you are getting at here, but I think it is still inaccurate because:

1. Moses was considered to be a mediator of a covenant with God and the Israelites
2. Technically, one could argue that Jesus was a saviour appointed by God. So that Jesus was a saviour, but God was the ultimate saviour. That’s just an argument ot consider.

Jesus was called “apostle” in Hebrews, does that mean the 12 apostles were equal to Jesus.

When we recite the “Hail, Holy Queen” we say that Mary is our “life, our sweetness and our hope”. But isnt Jesus the Way, the Truth and the Life? My point is, is that two persosn can share the same title without being the same,or even equal to each other.

 

[MH84]

Why couldn’t God just do miracles through Jesus the human so we might believe?

I wonder if that is what the apostles thought as well.

This is what St. Peter says after the Ascension of Christ:

Acts 2:22
"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

It seems here that Jesus want able to perform miracles until He was anointed by the Holy Spirit:

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[hamba2han]

When examining and analysing scripture, it is very important indeed to always bear in mind that square pegs are simply not meant to fit into round holes.

Attempting to knock these mismatched pegs into the wrong holes with a sledgehammer is really not the correct way to go about it.

 

[inJESUS]

To the OP, what do you understand from these verse:

“I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve.” Jeremiah 17:20

Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds." Revelation 2:23

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I’m sure many people would like to know why God wills what he does, that doesn’t give your argument any credit though.

If there is one doctrine that makes sense and another that doesn’t I usually stick with the one that makes sense.

So I ask what sense does it make for Jesus to be God before he was born if he was just going to empty his deity to become a human who gets all his power from Father God anyway. What purpose does Jesus being a God prior to his birth serve in all this?

It’s like an extra layer of doctrine that isn’t blatantly taught in the NT and doesn’t need to be there.

 

[DL82]

The Athanasian Creed states that Jesus is:

“Equal to the Father as touching His divinity, and inferior to the Father as touching His humanity.”

The human substance of Christ is indeed in an attitude of worship, both of the Father and of the Son, because Jesus is fully and perfectly man, and one aspect of being a perfect man is being perfectly subject to God, so that Christ’s human nature is fully subject to His divine nature.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

if Jesus is not God Himself, he could never be a savior because salvation comes from God Alone, If he is man only, it is impossible for him to mediate with Man and God, as he do not understand what God really is. IF he is not God, what is his difference with other prophet?

Hebrews 5:7-9 says Jesus prayed to God to save his life, then being made perfect by his obedience to God he was able to save the lives of others.

So salvation can come from anyone, as long as God gives them that power to save. And God can reveal Himself to anyone so they understand Him.

So none of this is reason for Jesus to be God before he was born.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Wow, you ask hard questions. I’ll have a go at this one too.

God united our humanity with his divinity so that we could live forever (with him in heaven). And God had to become man because that is the only way God could offer himself as a sacrifice for our sins.

1 Corinthians 5:7 - … Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

What does God uniting humanity and divinity do? Adam had everlasting life and God didn’t need to unite anything.

Where does it say God sacrificed Himself? God is the one who had to be appeased, He makes the rules. How would sacrificing Himself satisfy the wrongs others have done?