Did Jesus believe He was serving a greater Being (His Father) than Himself? I see conflicting messages in the Bible.

[Gara3987]

John 14:28
"You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you. If you loved me, you would indeed be glad, because I go to the Father: for the Father is greater than I. [John 14, 28]

“For the Father is greater than I”… It is evident, that Christ our Lord speaks here of himself as he is made man: for as God he is equal to the Father. (See Phil. 2.) Any difficulty of understanding the meaning of these words will vanish, when the relative circumstances of the text here are considered: for Christ being at this time shortly to suffer death, signified to his apostles his human nature by these very words: for as God he could not die. And therefore as he was both God and man, it must follow that according to his humanity he was to die, which the apostles were soon to see and believe, as he expresses, ver. 29. And now I have told you before it come to pass: that when it shall come to pass, you may believe.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I don’t get this explanation. You seem to be saying that Jesus, the Messiah, was in Heaven because David, His ancestor was in Heaven. This doesnt make sense. If Jesus was only a man, he couldnt have existed in David. His existence wouldn’t arrive for 1000, or so, years.

If this is your logic, then you are saying that you and I have come down from Heaven as well to take on human form.

I’m saying Jesus was the literal son of David, older brother of Solomon. He died to pay for David’s sin. And Jesus died to pay for the sins of everyone. So they are the same person, Jesus is the dead child resurrected into Mary’s womb. That’s why there was a virgin birth. That’s why he was in heaven before he came. That’s how he gets his lineage from David. A lot of things.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Your misleading and twisted interpretation of the Trinity turns into a mockery of your pesonal opinion actually.

There’s nothing misleading about it. You say Jesus was God eternally, then gave up all that power to come to earth as a man only to receive a lot of the same power from another Father aspect of God in Heaven.

So that first layer there about being God eternally and giving up the power is unnecessary and also never stated in the NT, it’s fable. It’s better to just say he was a man and got a lot of power from God.

So for you there is a god that grants privileges to a human named Jesus and unnecessarily elevates Him to the level of divinity by giving him authority. A god that confuses everything by making Jesus equal to himself and later asking people to believe that Jesus is only a human.

God did the same with Moses too, Moses was made a God over his people:

Exodus 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou (MOSES) shalt be to him instead of God.

So there is precedent for my belief. Jesus is top guy over all humans, so in that position, he is like God to us.

But still not born a deity.

Let me tell you once more: our faith and the truth in the NT are by no means dependent on the choice or will of humans. No wishful thinking could be the criterion for the validity of Christian tenets.

I have no idea what you mean.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Look at Hebrews 1: 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,…;

now look at Hebrews 1: 7In speaking of the angels he (this is God) says,…;

now look at Hebrews 1: 8 But about the Son he says,…

now finally, look at Hebrews 1:10 He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

It is the Father speaking in each of these occasions. Look at v. 8, it says that God is addressing His Son, then in v. 10 it says “He also says”. This means the same Person is speaking.

My KJV doesn’t have HE ALSO SAYS:

Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

As I explained if you read the original verse in Psalms you will see that this fellow talking is the Messiah who doesn’t want to be cut off in the midst of life, and he is talking to God.

So when you run into these quotes in the NT you really need to go back to the OT where they are sourced from to understand what they are saying. People like Paul writing to Jews assumes you know what he means and are familiar with the Tanach.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

No, I don’t think it is. If God tells people to approach Him in the name of Jesus that would not be idolatry if Jesus was not almighty God.

Don’t we pray to Mary, or ask her to intercede for us (presumably in her name)? How is that different from praying in the name of Jesus for a non-Trinitarian?

How is praying to Mary different from praying in the name of Mary?

During Benediction we say “Blessed be the name of Mary, virgin and mother”. What about this prayer, Charlie? We are blessing the name of Mary with this prayer.

Mary has her own name, therefore her own nature. God names things for what they are.

At the very end of St Matthew’s Gospel, we see three people, but with one name and therefore with one nature; “… in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” Only one name. (Not names.) Therefore the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have the same nature - and that nature is the infinite divine nature - which means they are God.

So, to suggest that the Son has the same name as the Father, and to suggest that they both are not God, is idolatry. :twocents:

 

[David_Poem]

I look at the following passages and I can’t explain why if Jesus knew He was God the Son, He repeatedly said that He had a God. In the following verses, those words were written down as spoken by Jesus Himself. For some reason when Jesus prayed, the evangelists often say that He prayed to “God” (not “Father” which would support the Trinitarian belief).

Bible references from NIV; www.biblegateway.com I have bolded texts to emphasise the parts of my concern.

Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father

Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

John 4:22
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
He might have included Himself here as those who worship God

John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.
Is Jesus indicating that only His Father is the God of the Jews? Why did Jesus say that the Jews claimed only His Father as their God (even though they didnt believe Jesus was His Son)? After all isnt the Son and the Holy Spirit the Jews’ God as well?

John 14:28
"You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

**John 17:3 **
3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Also, He doesn’t include the Holy Spirit here.

John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

(debatable) Mark 10
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.
If Jesus was indirectly referring to Himself as “God”, it would be the first time in the Gospel of Mark. He does call Himself “I am” in John 8:58, but there is debate as what He meant.

1. What are the apologetics to use to explain these verses?

2. Did the evangelists misinterpret the meaning of Jesus’ words?

3. Is there any room in Catholic doctrine to say that although Jesus was God incarnate, during His ministry He was not fully aware of the extent of His divinity until a later time (e.g. the Ascension)?

Personal suggestion: I know about other verses which indicate Jesus’ divinity such as John 1 and John 8:58. But there is no denying that there are these other verses (listed above) as well. Please don’t start listing other verses which point to or indicate His divinity unless they are needed to explain something specific, because I have seen most of the commonly quoted scriptures and also the title of this thread is about what Jesus said and thought about Himself, not what the Church teaches.

Happy are those that see but still belive .Dont sweat the small stuff.pray serve God with all your soul and all might makes write and pray for others .WE all neede to pray to counter Evil in this world.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

No because Jesus said God gave him all power of judgment. I usually pray to God and Jesus, in my mind acknowledging God has ultimate power but He has given authority to Jesus.

So my belief doesn’t take away from his power, it only clarifies his nature as a man who is given that power by God.

Nature defines what a living being can do.

Christians believe that Jesus has two natures; Divine and Human. It’s a mystery of the Incarnation which Christians admit they do not fully understand.

If Jesus has the power of God, then you’re suggesting that Jesus’ man nature and my man nature are different. You can’t have two different natures with the same name. You must be implying that Jesus isn’t man. Or, you must be implying that Jesus was Incarnated with a second nature. Which is it? You can’t say that Jesus is a man yet with the power of God. That’s not sensible because it contradicts man’s nature.

No, since there is just a human and God dwells in him, shades of which are all through the Bible with David, prophets, etc.

I think I agree. God works through saints and angels. But none of them would claim to have the power of God. How can they? There natures wouldn’t allow it.

But Trinity has a God who stops being God to become a man who can do nothing of himself and has to receive judgment from another form of God in Heaven just so he can be elevated to be like God again.

That may be FaithofAbraham, but that’s not Christianity.

So there is an extra layer of the man Jesus existing eternally as God that is unnecessary and confuses everything, plus greatly turns off Muslims and Jews from believing the truth of the NT.

Jews deny the NT because they don’t believe Jesus rose from the dead.

Muslims deny the NT because they don’t even believe that Jesus died on the cross.

It has nothing to do with complicated doctrines; Jews, Christians, and Muslims just don’t have the same view of historical events.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

You can’t say that Jesus is a man yet with the power of God. That’s not sensible because it contradicts man’s nature.

Moses was a man who got the power of God. Samson. Elijah. Others. But Jesus got the most. So it all works.

Jews deny the NT because they don’t believe Jesus rose from the dead.

Muslims deny the NT because they don’t even believe that Jesus died on the cross.

It has nothing to do with complicated doctrines; Jews, Christians, and Muslims just don’t have the same view of historical events.

Well, the deity issue is also a big problem for them too.

 

[paarsurrey]

Did Jesus believe He was serving a greater Being (His Father) than Himself? I see conflicting messages in the Bible.

Hi

Jesus’ life accounts and sayings are written in Quran- the pristine and secure word of GodAllahYHWH, in my opinion; and also in the NTBible. Quran does mention in very unequivocal terms that Jesus served GodAllahYHWH and as also his mother Mary . NTBible has “conflicting messages in” it as you have rightly observed. It would be therefore wise to believe what Quran says so clearly.

Thanks

 

[MH84]

Happy are those that see but still belive .Dont sweat the small stuff.pray serve God with all your soul and all might makes write and pray for others .WE all neede to pray to counter Evil in this world.

Hi

Im aware that you havent intended to debate anything here. However, I must comment that this issue isnt “small stuff”. It goes to the core of our belief.

Also, when you say, “Happy are those that see but still believe”, you are just meaning that I should accept what you accept. What should I be seeing? I have been Catholic all my life, is that what I should be seeing? Are you saying I should just forget these concerns I have been having, and just ignore them?

 

[MH84]

My KJV doesn’t have HE ALSO SAYS:

Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

When it says “And”, that is the equivalent to “He also says” in this context. Further proof of this is that “And” is not in the original psalm, so it was added by the author of Hebrews to say that in effect, "And, (furthermore) "Thou, Lord…

You would be in denial regarding this issue, because if you look at the other translations they imply that God was speaking to His Son.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Hi

Jesus’ life accounts and sayings are written in Quran- the pristine and secure word of GodAllahYHWH, in my opinion; and also in the NTBible. Quran does mention in very unequivocal terms that Jesus served GodAllahYHWH and as also his mother Mary . NTBible has “conflicting messages in” it as you have rightly observed. It would be therefore wise to believe what Quran says so clearly.

Thanks

Really? I think there is only a little bit of Jesus in the Qur’an;

• He was born from the Virgin Mary
• He didn’t die on the Cross

What else about Jesus is the Qur’an?

 

[Angelos]

There’s nothing misleading about it. You say Jesus was God eternally, then gave up all that power to come to earth as a man only to receive a lot of the same power from another Father aspect of God in Heaven.

You still seem to have difficulty understanding the official Christian teaching about the incarnation. Jesus’ birth from the Virgin does not make Him a mere human, but combines humanity to His divine personality and nature. We Christians never believe and teach that Jesus the God left His divinity to become human until the resurrection and became God again. We rather believe and teach that Jesus had one personality and that personality was divine! Your comments are misleading because they are not compatible with the official teaching of the Church about Jesus’ single identity.

So that first layer there about being God eternally and giving up the power is unnecessary and also never stated in the NT, it’s fable. It’s better to just say he was a man and got a lot of power from God.

Jesus’ exaltation on the earth only serves to prove His divinity! People in Jesus’ time could not witness His miraculous birth and recognize His divine personality. The Father exalted Jesus so as to make people believe that Jesus, whom they mistakenly considered a mere human due to His ministry on the earth, was actually His eternal and uncreated Wisdom/Word.

God did the same with Moses too, Moses was made a God over his people:

Exodus 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou (MOSES) shalt be to him instead of God.

So there is precedent for my belief. Jesus is top guy over all humans, so in that position, he is like God to us.

But still not born a deity.

You cannot say that God did the same with Moses. Nowehere in the NT can we read that Jesus was sent in the same way as Moses was. Jesus is never called “a god” in the NT! Above all, your comparison fails because when Moses was sent to Pharaoh, he was made like a god to him because Pharaoh believed in many deities. There was no need for God to make Jesus a god to His own people. More, the teaching that Moses was a god was never endorsed by Jews as a basic tenet of Judaism.

I have no idea what you mean.

You earlier stated that Jews and Muslims were pushed away from the truth of the NT because of the Trinitarian doctrine. This is not true since they could believe in the NT and reject the Trinity like Jehovah’s Witnesses or Unitarians.

Peace to all,
Angelos N.B.

 

[paarsurrey]

Really? I think there is only a little bit of Jesus in the Qur’an;

• He was born from the Virgin Mary
• He didn’t die on the Cross

What else about Jesus is the Qur’an?

Hi

Quran is a very concise Book; you could read it yourself, if you have not read it already. If you need I will provide you some references.

Thanks

 

[FaithofAbraham]

When it says “And”, that is the equivalent to “He also says” in this context. Further proof of this is that “And” is not in the original psalm, so it was added by the author of Hebrews to say that in effect, "And, (furthermore) "Thou, Lord…

You would be in denial regarding this issue, because if you look at the other translations they imply that God was speaking to His Son.

Now why would the Father God be telling the Son not to let Him die in the midst of His days? This is Messiah who is going to die on the cross talking to God, you have it backwards.

Psalms 102:23-25 He weakened my strength in the way; he shortened my days. I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

We Christians never believe and teach that Jesus the God left His divinity to become human until the resurrection and became God again.

You Christians do, it’s called the KENOSIS.

Jesus’ exaltation on the earth only serves to prove His divinity! People in Jesus’ time could not witness His miraculous birth and recognize His divine personality. The Father exalted Jesus so as to make people believe that Jesus, whom they mistakenly considered a mere human due to His ministry on the earth, was actually His eternal and uncreated Wisdom/Word.

Well you just contradicted yourself since you said Jesus never left his divinity, now you are saying he did and was exalted. Unless you can explain how you can be any more exalted if you are already a God, how much higher can you go?

I’m saying he never needed to be God before he was born since he had to live as a human and was exalted in the end anyway.

If you want to say the Holy Spirit that dwelled in Jesus at his baptism was God eternally, and from there on in the human spirit of Jesus dwelled with the Spirit of God, you have my vote, but the human spirit of Jesus the man did not exist eternally as God with God before then.

You cannot say that God did the same with Moses. Nowehere in the NT can we read that Jesus was sent in the same way as Moses was. Jesus is never called “a god” in the NT! Above all, your comparison fails because when Moses was sent to Pharaoh, he was made like a god to him because Pharaoh believed in many deities. There was no need for God to make Jesus a god to His own people. More, the teaching that Moses was a god was never endorsed by Jews as a basic tenet of Judaism.

Both Jesus and Moses were given power to be like God over the people. Whatever they said, you better obey it as if God was talking. But that makes neither deities themselves.

You earlier stated that Jews and Muslims were pushed away from the truth of the NT because of the Trinitarian doctrine. This is not true since they could believe in the NT and reject the Trinity like Jehovah’s Witnesses or Unitarians.

They could believe it if they were like me, but I am rare. Like Muslims and Jews see Christians chanting John 1:1 over and over again like a magic spell and begin to actually believe it says something about Jesus there, when it really doesn’t. So they are turned off of the NT by that.

 

[inJESUS]

It means that God the Father will do for you as He would for Jesus, if you ask in the name of Jesus. It doesn’t say Jesus is God.

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[David_Poem]

You Christians do, it’s called the KENOSIS.

Well you just contradicted yourself since you said Jesus never left his divinity, now you are saying he did and was exalted. Unless you can explain how you can be any more exalted if you are already a God, how much higher can you go?

I’m saying he never needed to be God before he was born since he had to live as a human and was exalted in the end anyway.

If you want to say the Holy Spirit that dwelled in Jesus at his baptism was God eternally, and from there on in the human spirit of Jesus dwelled with the Spirit of God, you have my vote, but the human spirit of Jesus the man did not exist eternally as God with God before then.

Both Jesus and Moses were given power to be like God over the people. Whatever they said, you better obey it as if God was talking. But that makes neither deities themselves.

They could believe it if they were like me, but I am rare. Like Muslims and Jews see Christians chanting John 1:1 over and over again like a magic spell and begin to actually believe it says something about Jesus there, when it really doesn’t. So they are turned off of the NT by that.

There is a principle which is a bar against all information,which is proof against allarguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation. Herbert Spencer.

 

[inJESUS]

Both Jesus and Moses were given power to be like God over the people. Whatever they said, you better obey it as if God was talking. But that makes neither deities themselves.

 

[Angelos]

You Christians do, it’s called the KENOSIS.

I have read that article and seen that it rebuts your allegations. That article never states that Jesus’ divine personality was lost because of His incarnation. Although I am not Roman Catholic, I know that they never believe Jesus to possess or gain human personality. The article you refer to is about the details of Jesus’ abasement after the incarnation. There is nothing there to support your view that Jesus lost His divine personality when He was born as a human. Here I am quoting from that page:

According to Catholic theology, the abasement of the Word consists in the assumption of humanity and the simultaneous occultation of the Divinity.

Well you just contradicted yourself since you said Jesus never left his divinity, now you are saying he did and was exalted. Unless you can explain how you can be any more exalted if you are already a God, how much higher can you go?

I’m saying he never needed to be God before he was born since he had to live as a human and was exalted in the end anyway.

I have stated in none of my posts that Jesus left His divinity! Could you please stop putting into my mouth sentences that do not belong to me? When I talk of Jesus’ exaltation by the Father, that exaltation does not entail the loss of His divine personality. What the Father exalted was only Jesus’ human nature. Paul points out Jesus’ will to assume human nature when he uses the sentence “He emptied Himself”, not the replacement of His divine personality with a new human personality.

We never say that Jesus needed to do anything! He did because He wanted to.

Both Jesus and Moses were given power to be like God over the people. Whatever they said, you better obey it as if God was talking. But that makes neither deities themselves.

Continuity of your false analogy. You can never prove that Jesus was made a god to Israel as Moses was made to Pharaoh. There is no data in the NT to help you make that false analogy.

They could believe it if they were like me, but I am rare. Like Muslims and Jews see Christians chanting John 1:1 over and over again like a magic spell and begin to actually believe it says something about Jesus there, when it really doesn’t. So they are turned off of the NT by that.

Now blaming Christians for people’s failure to grasp the supposed truth? Try something better next time. Muslims and Jews reject the NT because they know well that the Trinitarian tenet is based on the Scripture, not on people’s wishful thinking and their repetitive misinterpretation. If you disagree with me, please guide your Jewish and Muslim friends to Unitarians and Jehovah’s witnesses.

Peace to all,
Angelos N.B.