Did Jesus commit a sin?

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kgmig - I find it, well let’s put it charitably, ‘quirky’, that in Islam it is claimed that Jesus although righteous and a ‘prophet’, is subordinate to Muhammad, who is proclaimed as being the ultimate and final prophet, a sinner, and the model for every ‘Muslim’ to live up to/emulate. What that to my mind appears to say is that a sinful ‘prophet’ holds moral pre-eminence/sway over a righteous one, and indeed despite Jesus being the ‘prophet’ [according to Islamic teaching], who will come at the final judgement to judge. This example appears to endorse sin and sinning. Logic and rationality do not appear to be a strong points in this particular case.
 
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Yes, I do not understand either, but I was never taught Muslim ways, all I know is what I have seen outside, nothing in-depth. So I cannot really give a well founded opinion.

If I am given a choice, I would of course choose Jesus as my guide over and above any other human who has walked this earth, but I’m Catholic, and therefore very very extremely biased. 😊
 
myLordandGod said:
Some Muslims accuse Jesus of committing a sin. ‘Jesus called the Canaanite woman a dog.’
He said in reply, “It is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs.” (Mtt 15:26)
How do we answer this?
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This isn’t a mainstream Muslim view. The traditional view in Islam is that all of the prophets were without sin.
 
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kgmig - Yes, but very biased, using reason supported by Holy Discernment, I pray. Bias should always be backed by solid reasons for such ‘bias’. Bias that skates on thin ice is dangerous, and usually doomed to being wrong/to floundering. I hold fast to Jesus’ teachings and works, to the traditions, and to the Magisterium, the Princes/Hierarchy of the Church may err, but the former do not.
 
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TK421 - Please distinguish ‘mainstream’ from ‘traditional’ they are often very different. In the Qur’an verses 40:55, 48:2 and 47:19 have or intimate Muhammad as being a sinner - traditionally Islam has Allah as being a very harsh judge when it comes to sin, even seemingly towards those who repent. It also appears that Allah endorses deception/lies, if done so in/on behalf of his name/agenda/purpose - that sounds very human {Muhammad?], and even Satanic to me. Which of Islam’s ‘prophets’ gets caught up in ‘Satanic Verses’ other than Muhammad?

The ‘isma’ - the idea that all prophets are sinless - is a latter day insertion/invention - there are many examples of ‘alterations’/deletions/over writings in Islamic texts, especially so it seems, the Qur’an. In Islam the concept of ‘abrogation’ allows contradictory ‘truths’ to exist, and that these can both be considered [according to circumstance] as being valid/more valid. Most Muslims believe/are taught that Muhammad lived in Mecca, and that it was a great city cum trading hub, surrounded by much greenery, between mountains and with adequate water supply, when any serious examination of the terrain and recorded history, shows this clearly not to be the case - that Muhammad and his tribe actually lived in a small township 27 miles away from Petra. Mecca is first recorded after/during the Second Islamic War, as part of a realigning of early mosque qiblas/direction of prayer - which was originally towards Petra, and most particularly towards the ‘Forbidden Place’ in which resided the original Ka’aba.
 
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MountCarmel said:
It also appears that Allah endorses deception/lies, if done so in/on behalf of his name/agenda/purpose -
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Could you qoute the verse? What I know is that Qur’an(God) always blame lies and deception.

I think you have a wrong interpretation!
 
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MountCarmel said:
Most Muslims believe/are taught that Muhammad lived in Mecca, and that it was a great city cum trading hub, surrounded by much greenery, between mountains and with adequate water supply, when any serious examination of the terrain and recorded history, shows this clearly not to be the case - that Muhammad and his tribe actually lived in a small township 27 miles away from Petra. Mecca is first recorded after/during the Second Islamic War, as part of a realigning of early mosque qiblas/direction of prayer - which was originally towards Petra.
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Ha. Ha. Ha…
 
Did any one qoute from that fellow Muslim who had said(?) Jesus commit sin? Because that is very contrary to Islam.
 
Ha, ha, ha, to which bits, and why? - I recommend you go to You Tube and Google ‘The Sacred City’.
 
I know. I had heard that but that is a very comic claim. Realy very comic. But just comic with no base. There is no need to answer.
 
I thought you might frame your answer in such a way. More a defensive mantra than a rational answer.

As for Taqiyya {lying/deceiving/illusion], the Qur’an has Allah as being the best/greatest of deceivers - yes, in more recent times it is sought to have the original word used as meaning planner/schemer/plotter, but it can be proven by those who are well versed in ancient languages, and original meaning, that when the verse was first penned, that the word meant ‘deception’. In any case, what kind of a God would need to plot, scheme, or plan - God just ‘knows’ and ‘does’ - plotting and scheming is a human thing - maybe emanating from Muhammad’s thoughts and plans?

p.s. Ever thought about the origins and meanings of the crescent moon and the stars, in Islam?
 
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MountCarmel said:
I thought you might frame your answer in such a way. More a defensive mantra than a rational answer.

As for Taqiyya {lying/deceiving/illusion], the Qur’an has Allah as being the best/greatest of deceivers - yes, in more recent times it is sought to have the original word used as meaning planner/schemer/plotter, but it can be proven by those who are well versed in ancient languages, and original meaning, that when the verse was first penned, that the word meant ‘deception’. In any case, what kind of a God would need to plot, scheme, or plan - God just ‘knows’ and ‘does’ - plotting and scheming is a human thing - maybe emanating from Muhammad’s thoughts and plans?
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Well I guess you will say that. The verses in which God use the word greatest/best plotter, schemer, planner do not mean that God deceive people. İll-willed people just like unbelievers and Pagans plot somethings to harm prophet and believers. And God prevent and baffled their plans. But in verse an eloquence is used. Otherwise God is not a plotter!

And for lies… There are hundreds of verses about not to lie and hundreds about being right. But there is no a verse which allow to lie. And that issue is argued through some Hdiths. Nowdays scholars say that there is no any permission for lie (anymore).

That Petra issue. I had dicussed with someone and indeed it is unworthy to argue and a very comic claim. Thousands people lived around and in Mecca and and Medina and someone assert that Islam prophet were not in the present Mecca. How such thing could be comic like that!
 
MountCarmel said:
As for Taqiyya {lying/deceiving/illusion], the Qur’an has Allah as being the best/greatest of deceivers
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  1. And [remember, O Muhammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners. Al-Anfal(8)
  2. And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.Al-Imran(3)
  3. Indeed, they are planning a plan,
  4. But I am planning a plan.
  5. So allow time for the disbelievers. Leave them awhile.At-Tariq(86)
  6. They said, "Take a mutual oath by Allah that we will kill him by night, he and his family. Then we will say to his executor, ‘We did not witness the destruction of his family, and indeed, we are truthful.’ "
  7. And they planned a plan, and We planned a plan, while they perceived not. An-Naml(27)
You see God plans are to baffle ill-willed plans.
 
weed, it was weed he cut, not wood. I have to correct myself here. Tov.
 
God is TRUTH, and all about TRUTH - man schemes, plans, deceives and plots - oh, so does Satan. Yes, folks can think, or be led by other men or Satan, into be fooled by plots, and lies, and indeed to pass those on down the generations, unless Discernment and the Holy Spirit of TRUTH, intervenes.

Allah the Best of Deceivers? - Well the Qur’an claims so:

From Answering Muslims:
According to the Qur’an, Allah is the “best of deceivers” (3:54; 8:30). The phrase is often translated into English as “best of planners,” “best of schemers,” or “best of plotters,” but the root word (makr) means “deception.” Hence, the following Qur’an verses should be rendered as follows:

Qur’an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers.

Qur’an 7:99—Are they then safe from Allah’s deception? No one feels safe from Allah’s deception except those that shall perish.

Qur’an 8:30—And (remember) when the unbelievers plotted deception against you (O Muhammad), to imprison you, or kill you, or expel you. They plotted deception, but Allah also plotted deception; and Allah is the best of deceivers.

Since the Bible declares that Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44), the question must be raised: Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?

God does not answer lies and deception with yet more lies and deception - God answers lies with TRUTH, BECAUSE truth ALWAYS TRUMPS LIES AND DECEPTION, BOTH, MORALLY AND ETHICALLY.
 
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Muslims also do not worship the God of Abraham, as they claim [Muslims don’t comprehend or choose to comprehend the 3 persons/aspects in ONE GOD deal - “I and the Father are ONE”] - also Mecca until recently could not supply enough water to support a large community. The land in and around Mecca has been found never to have been fertile - there is no pollen or seed record to be found - surely there would be sources from other than Muslim, of Mecca being a great city and a hub for trade? Surely Mecca would have been mentioned before Muhammad’s time? Surely Mecca would have been marked on maps before the 9th century, which is the earliest know date for it to be marked. Surely if on a main trade route it would not be positioned as it is, in an out of the way and arid place as it then was, and indeed, except for relatively recent installations still is. The Zam Zam well is not that big, and has been found to have high(ish) levels of arsenic contamination - check it out on the WEB. Where are the mountains? - there are a couple of hillocks that are both contained within/under a man made roof area. Petra fits all the descriptions, Mecca just does not. Medina did exist at that time as a township, but even that does not match the grandiose description of ‘Becca’, as Petra most certainly did, and in many ways still does - there are records of it being a place repleat with water and greenery, as recently as the Victorian times. Pollen and seeds can be found there - there is a man made canal/water channel that although dry now, used to feed plenty of water into Petra. There are mountain/cliffs on both sides, as described in Islamic writings, and so much more that fits - as I say, try watching and listening to ‘The Sacred City’ with open mind, ears and eyes.

p.s. Don’t you think it curious that Muhammad’s pagan father was named ‘Abdullah’/‘Slave/Servant of Allah’ even before Muhammad was ever born - that Abdullah was a name given to pagan Arabs even long before Islam. And, yes, his father’s name is so mentioned in Islamic writings. The story goes that Abdullah came back from farming the soil {the word used for the soil denotes a heavy rich fertile sort of soil, such as around Petra, and not found anywhere near Mecca, he approached his number one wife for sex, that she rejected him because he still had dirt on his hands and under his fingers, he then washed his hands and went to his second wife, who allowed him to have sex with her, and it was from that union that Muhammad was conceived.
 
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MountCarmel said:
Muslims also do not worship the God of Abraham, as they claim [Muslims don’t comprehend or choose to comprehend the 3 persons/aspects in ONE GOD deal - “I and the Father are ONE”] - also Mecca until recently could not supply enough water to support a large community. The land in and around Mecca has been found never to have been fertile - there is no pollen or seed record to be found - surely there would be sources from other than Muslim, of Mecca being a great city and a hub for trade? … - as I say, try watching and listening to ‘The Sacred City’ with open mind, ears and eyes.

p.s. Don’t you think it curious that Muhammad’s pagan father was named ‘Abdullah’/‘Slave/Servant of Allah’ even before Muhammad was ever born - that Abdullah was a name given to pagan Arabs even long before Islam. And, yes, his father’s name is so mentioned in Islamic writings. The story goes that Abdullah came back from farming the soil {the word used for the soil denotes a heavy rich fertile sort of soil, such as around Petra, and not found anywhere near Mecca, he approached is number one wife for sex, that she rejected him because he still had dirt on his hands and under his fingers, he then washed his hands and went to his second wife, who allowed him to have sex with her, and it was from that union that Muhammad was conceived.
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Petra. Petra. Petra…

Ha… Ha… Ha…Ha…

So people do not know country where their fathers lived. Safa and Marva… Kaaba… And Mecca was and is always waste and arid but were on trade way. Prophet Muhammad make trade. Pilgrims were used to come for fairs for Kaaba. Even Pagans believe in God but they assosiated their hand made sculptures as gods beside God. Well you also assosiate a man and an angel parts of divinity. So what is difference between you and Pagans?

We worship God but just God who had sent Adam, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Jesus and all prophets. But you do not whorship the unique God. You worship a man(Jesus) and an angel(Holy Spirit:Ruh-ul Kudus who is angel Gabriel). You cannot support your groundless thoughts so you asperse and assault to most great prophet.
 
Jharek - the crescent moon in Catholicism has no great part to play except as depicted along with the serpent/Satan, under the feet of Jesus’ mother Mary also her depiction as Queen of Heaven, with 12 stars around her head. The Cross/Crucifix is the central symbol for Christianity but Islam does not acknowledge Jesus as having ever been crucified of course - despite non-Christian sources claiming it to be so.
 
you persist in claiming my assertions to be groundless, and yet do not go into any detailed refuting - only the usual sweeping polemical and non-proven tired mantra.
 
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