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Charlie_Zeaiter
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What does it mean to be “in the heart of the earth”? Surely it doesn’t mean to be laid to rest in an above ground tomb?
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antonabe
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The phrase Heart of the Earth cannot be taken literally most of the parables and other teachings too of Jesus cannot be taken in the literal sense.Heart of the Earth taken metaphorically means a Significant or important place on earth
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inkaneer
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Well I just read through five pages of posts on this topic and found it all very interesting but I have to admit that there are some things that I would have to consider as being very suspect. First of all there are problems in dating things. The calendar in use in Roman times is different than what we have today. There is also the problem of using people like Josephus who wrote from memory rather than as things occurred. The astronomical events present a compelling argument. But I have seen astronomical events used by some to advance their own agenda. If there was any error induced into the “astronomical facts” to advance that agenda then how would we know? Unless we could run the facts for ourselves or get someone to do it that we could place absolute trust in we wouod still be left with a lingering question of doubt. The person behind the *Bethlehem Star *website is not an astronomer. He is a lawyer. I would prefer that he was an astronomer as that would elicit greater confidence in the alleged facts. Astronomy, as with all sciences, have technical publications for publishing individuals work and such work is then subject to criticism by other astronomers. But a website by a lawyer will not receive attention by any astronomer and thus the really big question of whether the astronomical “facts” as presented are indeed credible remains unanswered. I would prefer that the alleged facts of the Bethlehem Star website be validated by real astronomers. Maybe this has been done, I do not know as I could not find any such verification.
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richherleikson
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Stellarium is free open source planetarium software. In the book Jesus was 61, there is chapter explaining how to install and use Stellarium. The software is used by astronomers, but is easy enough to use by most anyone. Since the software is open source, anyone can look at the source code.
The Roman Julian calendar consisted of months and days. Most dates were dated in the year of the reigning Roman consul. The Anno Domini [A.D.] dating system was devised in 525 CE by Dionysius Exiguus, who used it to compute the date of the Christian Easter festival, and to identify the several Easters in his Easter table, but did not use it to date any historical event.
Stellarium converts a calendar date, as we use it today, to a Julian Date Number, which assigns a unique number to each year. The Julian Date Number is not part of the Julian calendar. Astronomy dates are precise and repeatable for any date in time, based upon the laws of physics, and what we know about the solar system and stars. There are many factors that go into computing the orbits and rotations of objects in our solar system. The software takes into account each of these factors.
I have two university degrees in engineering and applied science, and have worked as an engineer for three decades, having engineering experience in both software development and space technology. From what I can tell, Stellarium is just as good as any software that one might find in a planetarium used by professional astronomers. One does not have to be an astronomer, scientist or engineer to use the software. So most anyone who can use a computer can verify all the signs in the heavens that are described in either the movie “The Star of Bethlehem”, or the book “The Star of Bethlehem: The Star that Astonished the World”, by Earnest L. Martin, which is on-line at www.askelm.com, or the book Jesus was 61, which is also on-line.
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richherleikson
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The phrase should be taken literally. It was not a parable. Jesus was in a tomb carved out of rock in the earth, with a stone securing the entrance to the tomb. Likewise, Jonah was also literally in the belly of the sea monster for three days and nights.
Luke 23:50-53
And a man named Joseph, who was a member of the Council, a good and righteous man (he had not consented to their plan and action), a man from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who was waiting for the kingdom of God; this man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. And he took it down and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid Him in a tomb cut into the rock, where no one had ever lain.
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brb3
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Thank you
People should realize it was a Catholic who researched / worked up the Bethlehem Star video. The Church has put is imprimatur on the project … more or less 
Its a frequent EWTN staple now.I’ve reviewed it and done some research on it. It might have a few errors … but in the main it presents some powerful proofs that can’t be ignored or discarded lightly. Until man can trump laws of science … its the best I’ve come across to explain the annunciation, birth, and Calvary events.
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Ron_Conte
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I spent several years researching and writing a book on NT Biblical chronology. I’ve read what many different scholars have said about dating the Birth of Christ and about the star.Thank you
I’ve reviewed it and done some research on it. It might have a few errors … but in the main it presents some powerful proofs that can’t be ignored or discarded lightly. Until man can trump laws of science … its the best I’ve come across to explain the annunciation, birth, and Calvary events.
- There is no consensus among scholars as to the date of Christ’s birth. Dates suggested by Biblical chronologists range from 15 BC to 1 BC or even 1 AD
- There is no consensus as to the meaning of the Christmas star. Theories range from a comet, to a conjuction of stars and plants, to a supernatural sign.
- No scholar attempts to determine the date of Christ’s Birth mainly on the basis of identifying the star. Numerous other pieces of historical evidence must be considered.
greatly over-simplifies the evidence, and draws conclusions which do not follow from the premises. The error in manuscripts after 1544 pertains to the date of the death of one of Herod’s sons, and does not imply that Herod died in 1 BC. There are many other factors to consider.
Also, it is not certain how many years passed between the Birth of Christ and the death of Herod, but since Herod killed the holy Innocents who were two years old or younger, and since the holy family then spent a number of years in Egypt, the length of time would have to be at least several years. The theory in this video, that Jesus was born on Dec. 25 of 2 BC cannot be correct, even if Herod died in 1 BC. The scholars who believe that Herod died in 1 BC place his death in Jan. or Feb., only a month or two after Dec. 25 of 2 BC.
Basically, this video is very poor scholarship, presented with high production values, so as to appeal directly to the faithful who are uneducated on this subject, by-passing scholars and most of the scholarship in this field.
The idea that the Magi saw a conjunction of a planet and a star, and so they concluded that a king was born and started their journey is untenable. There are many conjuctions of stars and planets, and other notable celestial events. And they would have no way of knowing that subsequent celestial events would occur once they started this journey.
Too much weight is given in this theory to the interpretation of stars and planets. We do not know what the Magi’s interpretation of celestial events might have been, so this is baseless conjecture to say that they would have interpreted Jupiter and Regulus as having a particular meaning. Also, the theory ignores almost all scholarship in this field, selecting only a few points to use in the theory, and ignoring everything else.
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Ron_Conte
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Light from the sun is not ‘red shifted’ by passing close to the earth.
Lunar eclipses are very common, and so cannot be used to determine the date of the death of Jesus.
The reference by Peter to the old Testament prophecy of the moon turning to Blood, Acts 2:20, is subject to interpretation. It does not prove that there was a lunar eclipse associated with the Passover.
Your interpretation of Daniel’s 62 weeks of years to imply that Jesus was 62 years old when he died is untenable.
Jesus could not have been crucified after 36 AD at the latest, because Pilate was no longer in charge of Judea after that date.
If Pilate was in charge of Judea as late as 51 AD, then Tiberius would have to still have been emperor, since he died at the end of Pilate’s reign. This does not allow enough years from 51 to 70 for the various other emperors prior to the Fall of Jerusalem.
There is no evidence for a Wednesday Crucifixion date, other than an overly literal interpretation of the three days and three nights saying. The Synoptics unequivocally place the Crucifixion on Friday, and so does John (depending on interpretation). None indicates Wednesday as the day of the Crucifixion.
Your interpretation of Daniel 9:27 as refering to a literal week is contrary to the Church fathers, who interpreted that verse as referring to the Antichrist’s reign of a week of years, and you contradict your own interpretation of the word weeks in the expression 62 weeks of years.
Herod could not have died in early 11 BC. First, there is not enough time between your proposed date for Jesus’ Birth, and all the events (see my post above) that occurred. Second, your very early date for Herod’s reign contradicts your very late date for Pilate’s reign. There are a sequence of events, lasting a certain number of years, in Roman history, and they are all inter-related. You cannot have both a very early date for Herod’s death, and a very late date for Pilate’s reign. For example, if Herod died in 11 BC, then these dates could not be correct:
Pilate’s reign lasted about ten years, according to nearly all scholars, not 32 years as you contend.
There is no support for a ministry of Jesus lasting about 30 years. Luke says that Jesus began his ministry about about age 30, so that would be about 19 AD by your dates, making his ministry last over 30 years.
You have Tiberius dying 21 years before Pilate dies, which contradicts all the historical evidence. The other dates you give in Roman history are also unsupportable.
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inkaneer
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Since when does EWTN have imprimatur authority? Yes, I know you added the smiley face but the fact that the show may or may not be on EWTN in no way adds to its validity. After all EWTN shows cartoons also.Thank you
I’ve reviewed it and done some research on it. It might have a few errors … but in the main it presents some powerful proofs that can’t be ignored or discarded lightly. Until man can trump laws of science … its the best I’ve come across to explain the annunciation, birth, and Calvary events.
That being said, the Bethlehem Star story does have some things going for it. The foremost, I think, is the planet conjunction theory for the star. Anything spectacular occurring in the might sky would certainly attract the attention of other civilizations like the Chinese who kept rather sophisticated and accurate data on the celestial happenings such as comets, supoernovas, etc. But something subtle, such as a planetary conjunction, may not be noteworthy except if it occurred with objects that have some significane to those watching and those watching were aware of prophetic sayings that were due to occur. The Chinese were not aware of the Mesianic prophesies but those in Persia were aware due to the presence there of the Jews in the Babylonian Captivity. Also the very fact that the Magi in Jerusalem could still see the “star” but Herod and his advisors were not aware of it lends credence to the fact that it was not something spectacular.
However, I would still like to have real astronomers weigh in on this to verify the astronomical aspects. In fact, I find it somewhat surprising that the author, a lawyer by trade, did not have astronomers involved since lawyers in their trial work always have expert witnesses to buttress their case. Why not now?
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RWMorris
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This is an interesting thread and I have enjoyed reading it. I just want to point out that if BC/AD dating were 100% accurate, which of course it is not, Jesus would have been born on 0 AD, not 1 AD. On 1 AD he would have been 1 year old. Just a minor point.
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Evan
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Let’s see…
The proper way to write that is AD 1 or AD 0. AD means: In the year of our Lord. Since AD 0 would mean In the year of our Lord zero. That would be 1 BC (before Christ). So that works (the year before AD 1 is 1 BC).
But he was in the world from his conception (celebrated as the Annunciation on 25 March). So year AD 1 would be the year he was conceived.
Since we don’t know his birthday, (I suspect it is the same as mine Dec 28
) We would expect him to be 1 year old in AD 2 because we would start counting from the Annunciation.We make a person 1 year old AFTER he has lived 1 year, not as he is living that 1st year.
But AD 1 should be the first year of His life. We are not counting the years since he was conceived. AD 1 should be the first year Christ was humanly present on Earth and, if he was conceived on Jan 1, his day of birth would be Sept 1, 1 AD and his first birthday would be Sept 1, 2 AD. If he was conceived Dec 31 AD 1, his first birthday would be Aug 31, 3 AD
OR we could simplify all this by starting the year on the day of his conception instead of 1 week after Christmas, but we know neither the day or year of his birth.
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RWMorris
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So what you are saying is that there is not a two year span from 1 BC to 1 AD, it is only one year span? For argument’s sake that would mean he was crucified in the year 34 AD in his 33rd year of life (I understand that the BC/AD dating is not necessarily accurate and that we are not sure of his exact age at Crucifixion).Let’s see…
The proper way to write that is AD 1 or AD 0. AD means: In the year of our Lord. Since AD 0 would mean In the year of our Lord zero. That would be 1 BC (before Christ). So that works (the year before AD 1 is 1 BC).
But he was in the world from his conception (celebrated as the Annunciation on 25 March). So year AD 1 would be the year he was conceived.
Since we don’t know his birthday, (I suspect it is the same as mine Dec 28
We make a person 1 year old AFTER he has lived 1 year, not as he is living that 1st year.
But AD 1 should be the first year of His life. We are not counting the years since he was conceived. AD 1 should be the first year Christ was humanly present on Earth and, if he was conceived on Jan 1, his day of birth would be Sept 1, 1 AD and his first birthday would be Sept 1, 2 AD. If he was conceived Dec 31 AD 1, his first birthday would be Aug 31, 3 AD
OR we could simplify all this by starting the year on the day of his conception instead of 1 week after Christmas, but we know neither the day or year of his birth.
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richherleikson
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From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Eclipse
*"The Moon does not completely disappear as it passes through the umbra because of the refraction of sunlight by the Earth’s atmosphere into the shadow cone; if the Earth had no atmosphere, the Moon would be completely dark during an eclipse. The red coloring arises because sunlight reaching the Moon must pass through a long and dense layer of the Earth’s atmosphere, where it is scattered. Shorter wavelengths are more likely to be scattered by the small particles, and so by the time the light has passed through the atmosphere, the longer wavelengths dominate. This resulting light we perceive as red. This is the same effect that causes sunsets and sunrises to turn the sky a reddish color; an alternative way of considering the problem is to realize that, as viewed from the Moon, the Sun would appear to be setting (or rising) behind the Earth.
“The amount of refracted light depends on the amount of dust or clouds in the atmosphere; this also controls how much light is scattered. In general, the dustier the atmosphere, the more that other wavelengths of light will be removed (compared to red light), leaving the resulting light a deeper red color. This causes the resulting coppery-red hue of the Moon to vary from one eclipse to the next. Volcanoes are notable for expelling large quantities of dust into the atmosphere, and a large eruption shortly before an eclipse can have a large effect on the resulting color.”*
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richherleikson
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From Josephus, “Antiquities of the Jews”, Book XVIII, Chapter 4, Section 2:
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“But when this tumult was appeased, the Samaritan senate sent an embassy to Vitellius, a man that had been consul, and who was now president of Syria, and accused Pilate of the murder of those that were killed; for that they did not go to Tirathaba in order to revolt from the Romans, but to escape the violence of Pilate. So Vitellius sent Marcellus, a friend of his, to take care of the affairs of Judea, and ordered Pilate to go to Rome, to answer before the emperor to the accusations of the Jews. So Pilate, when he had tarried ten years in Judea, made haste to Rome, and this in obedience to the orders of Vitellius, which he durst not contradict; but before he could get to Rome Tiberius was dead.”*
All Josephus states is that Vitellius, president of Syria, ordered Pilate to go to Rome. But before Pilate gets to Rome, Tiberius is dead. After the death of Tiberius, Caius (Caligula) takes over as the Roman Emperor, and the government that was under Tiberius goes through changes in personnel. Josephus did not state that this was the end of Pilate’s career as Procurator of Judea.
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richherleikson
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From Daniel 9:27,
“u·egbir brith l·rbim shbuo achd u·chtzi e·shbuo ishbith zbch u·mnche” which traslates as “and·he-has-mastery covenant to·the·many-ones seven one and·half-of the·seven he-shall-cause-to-cease sacrifice and·present-offering”. Jesus Christ ended sacrifice with His final sacrifice as the Passover Lamb for the sins of the world, with His crucifixion. The Hebrew word used here is “shbuo”, not “shboim” used in the previous verses of Daniel.
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richherleikson
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Passover lunar eclipses (blood moons) are not very common. A Wednesday Passover lunar eclipse (blood moon) is even less common.
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Evan
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That is correct. It has been used many times by those who predict the rapture. The compute a year when it’s going to happen. It doesn’t happen, then they find that there is no year zero and so expect the rapture the next year.
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Evan
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And so it is not red shifted. A red shift is caused by an object moving rapidly away from the earth in such a way that light frequency is shifted toward the red end of the spectrum. What we have here is red colored light is refracted less than blue so more of the red color of light hits the moon and is reflected back to the earth.
This is why it is important to have an astronomer’s assistance. So the terms can be used as they are defined.
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richherleikson
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OK “red shift” is a poor choice of words. I will use the longer description in describing a blood moon as a “red moon” lunar eclipse due to the diffraction from the earth’s atmosphere.
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brb3
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You know lawyers think they ARE the experts
But, his software was designed by REAL astronomers. That is the beauty of his production. He let the scriptures guide his search … which he plugged into the software and out pops verification by science of scriptures.
The scientific method at work … at its finest ! Formulate a hypothesis … & test it from the scientific evidence, and calculate probabilities. Explaining the evidence [scripted in the stars] … is not credibly explainable by chance events alone. God has given all fence-sitters the proof you need …to fortify your weak faiths and abort your pregnant skepticism.
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