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amsjj
Guest
Prayers headed your way, Jonni!
I majored in history and the inaccuracies – not to mention ant-Christian biases – just make me shake my head. We had a long conversation in the library with several others and we were trying to help another fellow not to take History Channel, Discovery, TLC or whatever as truth.
Yes, there are some times when I have doubts and I go “well, what if?” – but my saints and patrons, who aimed at holiness, who were intelligent and practical men, they give me strength. I’ve studied their lives and read their works, and I’ll take their inspiring example to heart instead.
take care!
amsjj
+++
Jesus, God and man,
imprisoned by love in Thy most holy Sacrament,
have mercy upon us.
ese Cristo con su Cuerpo, con su Sangre, con su Alma, y con su Divinidad,
prisonero de amor.
by St. Justin the Martyr. He says ‘Jesus often said, “They who are near Me are near a fire”’.
I majored in history and the inaccuracies – not to mention ant-Christian biases – just make me shake my head. We had a long conversation in the library with several others and we were trying to help another fellow not to take History Channel, Discovery, TLC or whatever as truth.
Yes, there are some times when I have doubts and I go “well, what if?” – but my saints and patrons, who aimed at holiness, who were intelligent and practical men, they give me strength. I’ve studied their lives and read their works, and I’ll take their inspiring example to heart instead.
take care!
amsjj
+++
Jesus, God and man,
imprisoned by love in Thy most holy Sacrament,
have mercy upon us.
- Blessed John Henry Newman, December 22, 1851
ese Cristo con su Cuerpo, con su Sangre, con su Alma, y con su Divinidad,
prisonero de amor.
- San Josemaría Escrivá, 1 junio 1974
by St. Justin the Martyr. He says ‘Jesus often said, “They who are near Me are near a fire”’.
- Abp. W. B. Ullathorne, August 1st 1886
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Nigel7
Guest
Yes, and rose again from the dead.
“But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us…
… For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!”
Rom 5:8
“Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.”
Rom 8:34
“And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.”
Mat 27:50
“It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead”
Acts 4:10
“For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins”
1 Cor 8:11
“For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.”
Rom 14:9
Etc… etc… etc…
Scripture says it again and again. Christ died on the cross and resurrected on the third day.
Do not listen to the nonsense spoken by the Gnostic heretics or others who would have you believe anything other than what is clearly stated in scripture.
I have a Gnostic neighbor who recently told me that Jesus did not die on the cross, but rather only went into a self-induced coma. I then showed her all the scripture which clearly states that Jesus died on the cross. Then I asked her to show me where scripture says anything supporting her claim of this supposed “self-induced three-day coma”, but of course she could not find anything in scripture even remotely supporting her Gnostic belief, naturally, since it is utter nonsense and pure heresy.
J
Jonni
Guest
Thank you for your prayers and your comment amsjj it helps a lot.
E
Eufrosnia
Guest
Hi there,
First thing to understand is that one can always write stories about an event. Those, when logically consistent to some degree, we refer to as possibilities. But the likelihood that a possibility was what actually took place can be slim depending on what else we know.
So stories such as “Jesus may have married, had children and the Apostles covered it up”, or “Jesus didn’t die on the cross and the Apostles made the whole thing up”, or “Jesus never existed and the whole person was made up by Apostles/early Christians” are all possibilities. But what we know leads us to believe that these possibilities are false and its more likely that Jesus did indeed exist, die on the cross, and rise again on the third day.
Why?
The biggest and surest reason to think so is the fact that almost all Apostles (except John who suffered exiled) embraced martydom for the truth they proclaimed i.e. Jesus rose from the dead. So did early Christians who would have easily been able to verify if such a person called Jesus existed and if the Apostles were known as total psychos.
Add to this the improbability that all Apostles were indeed messed up in the head and made these stories up (how likely is it that all of them were mentally insane and if they were, and then decide on the same story to the point of suffering death?).
If Jesus did not die on the cross, just fainted, what about the fact that Jesus was pierced in the heart? Now the person who made the video you saw might say, that part was fake. But at this point, he is just picking and choosing what he wants to believe. He wants to hold that the vinegar being given part of the story was true but the part of Jesus’s heart being pierced by the lance is not. That should warn you that the man is just out to prove his own agenda.
Now one might argue about the martyrdom of Apostles that there were likes of David Koresh or Jim Jones who were famous cult leaders of the 20th century and their followers too were willing to die for them. BUT, what these people might not know is that once these cult leaders died, all of the followers stopped believing in them and were freed from their grip. The fact that Apostles were ready to give their lives for Jesus even after his death on the cross would then mean that the Apostles were indeed sure of his resurrection and that he was surely alive. So if anything, the evidence we have gathered from these cult leaders should lead us to believe that Jesus did indeed die and rise from the dead.
In short, if you had to believe and trust someone else regarding something you didn’t experience first hand, the ultimate thing that the other person could do to convince you that they are telling the truth is give their life for what they are saying. That is indeed what the Apostles did. They allowed their blood to be shed so that you may know with confidence that Jesus did indeed die and rise from the dead and they were not lying. They made the sacrifice so that you may know for sure that they were telling the truth. What more can we ask for from a person to do so that we can believe what they say?
Secular pieces on Christianity will always be based on a false view of Christ. If they believed in Christ, they’d be Christians.
I would not read or watch such “documentaries” by secular people unless you are strong and secure in what you know to be true. No secular production will say that Jesus rose from the dead.As time goes by, more and more supposed “evidence” will come up to prove Christ didn’t rise from the dead. Near the end of time, there will be a great falling away. Why would millions of Christians fall away except a great deception come first.
In Christ,
Zekariya
PS 2 Thessalonians 2:11-15 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
po18guy
Well-known member
Jonni, based on what you have said, it appears that you may be under spiritual attack. Now, this is rather common, so it’s nothing particularly scary - just concerning. First, you are struggling with your faith. There might be a single reason or multiple reasons. But, look at the sequence of events that have occurred since, as well as the types of those events. All of it is designed to cause doubt and to discouragement. These are the devil’s two main weapons, and you have expressed both in your post. The Church may not speak of the devil all that much these days, but he is very real and he seeks to weaken or destroy your relationship with God. He does not care if you believe in him, or fear him - only that you drift away from God.
But, as the Apostle James the Less said in his epistle: “Resist the devil and he will flee.” (James 4:7). Are you up on your sacraments? Confession and the Holy Eucharist are powerful spiritual weapons that the devil cannot overcome. If you are current on those, then I enthusiastically suggest that you spend an hour with the Lord at adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. To be in Christ’s true presence is to reject the devil, and will help to erase doubt and build encouragement. Consider looking at it this way: the world belongs to the devil and we are subject to it 24/7, during each of the 168 hours in a week. To counteract this, we spend a single hour at mass? By the numbers alone, that is not a good equation.
At adoration, you may simply ponder Him, pray, ask Him to reveal the truth to you or read scripture. There, you will receive encouragement to counter all of the discouragement, and faith to replace the doubt. There, the Holy Spirit will lead you toward what the devil has been trying to lead you away from.
But, as the Apostle James the Less said in his epistle: “Resist the devil and he will flee.” (James 4:7). Are you up on your sacraments? Confession and the Holy Eucharist are powerful spiritual weapons that the devil cannot overcome. If you are current on those, then I enthusiastically suggest that you spend an hour with the Lord at adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. To be in Christ’s true presence is to reject the devil, and will help to erase doubt and build encouragement. Consider looking at it this way: the world belongs to the devil and we are subject to it 24/7, during each of the 168 hours in a week. To counteract this, we spend a single hour at mass? By the numbers alone, that is not a good equation.
At adoration, you may simply ponder Him, pray, ask Him to reveal the truth to you or read scripture. There, you will receive encouragement to counter all of the discouragement, and faith to replace the doubt. There, the Holy Spirit will lead you toward what the devil has been trying to lead you away from.
M
Mike30
Guest
I never said it wasn t. I believe deeply but through faith not because I have verifiable proof…I pointed out that there is no verifiable proof one way or the other, It is and always has been a matter of faith If it was verifiable there would never have been an argument to begin with
Even in the earliest days of the Church most didn t accept the story.
G
gnosisofthomas
Guest
I’m Gnostic, and even I don’t believe Jesus and Mary Magdalene had a child. There’s nothing in Gnostic scripture that suggests that, nor anything that even specifically suggests that they were married. There’s one scripture that says she was His consort, but that word has so many different connotations that it’s impossible to say that it means they were married or even romantically involved.
The Knights Templar apparently found something in Jerusalem, but it has never been specified what that “something” was. Many people have suggested various different things – the head of John the Baptist, for instance. But truthfully, we’ll never know. The idea that it was Jesus’ body seems to be yet another speculation, although I’d never heard that until now.
I suppose it’s possible that whatever was on the sponge drugged Him, but getting nailed to a cross and stabbed in the ribs is likely to kill anyone! What evidence would that have that He wasn’t crucified, if they’re still going to buy into the rest of the story?
The Buddhist thing is just ridiculous – I mean, I wasn’t there, so I can’t say for sure what happened. But again, what evidence is there that He did that? It sounds made up to me.
The Knights Templar apparently found something in Jerusalem, but it has never been specified what that “something” was. Many people have suggested various different things – the head of John the Baptist, for instance. But truthfully, we’ll never know. The idea that it was Jesus’ body seems to be yet another speculation, although I’d never heard that until now.
I suppose it’s possible that whatever was on the sponge drugged Him, but getting nailed to a cross and stabbed in the ribs is likely to kill anyone! What evidence would that have that He wasn’t crucified, if they’re still going to buy into the rest of the story?
The Buddhist thing is just ridiculous – I mean, I wasn’t there, so I can’t say for sure what happened. But again, what evidence is there that He did that? It sounds made up to me.
P
perro_sarnoso
Guest
Let’s forget for a moment that this is doctrine of demons.
When was the last time someone went into a zombie state because they tasted old wine or wine that had gone vinegary|?
How is it that Jesus- who has been “in your face” preaching and teaching everywhere, suddenly feels that He has to run and hide to “make believe” that He was raised from the dead?
If the aforementioned is “accurate”- wouldn’t Jesus be considered a liar of all that He said? And, if so, wouldn’t this be a doctrine of devils to defame and defraud the Word of God?
Templars? Buddhas? really? Jesus needed to be taught by Buddhas and His remains to be recovered by Templars with ties to Masonic activity?
This is so full of holes…no, rediculous holes.
You, my friend, still need conversion of the intellect-afterwhich you need conversion of the will. Doubt what you will but, don’t doubt the words of Jesus Christ. And don’t let any average joe demon convince you of anything short of the Sound Doctrine.
K
katholikos12
Guest
I think that this is a distortion; however, there is some debate as to the original ending about the last verses of Mark (16:9-20).Many thanks for all your replies.
Thanks for the book you have recommended Rich, I shall buy a copy of that.
Someone recorded it, I think it was the discovery channel.
Hi Gus, I do believe, I have just gotten myself all confused and disheartened trying to gain faith and trying to understand. Maybe I am not ready to look at the negative stuff as I obviously don’t have true faith which by the way frustrates me as I want to fully open my heart to God. I do pray and ask him for his help
There was one more thing they said which I forgot to ask and that is that in the gospel of Mark, he ended it with Jesus death and the resurrection was added a couple of hundred years later. The same was with the other Gospels.
Many thanks again for all your time and help its very much appreciated.
From the RSV Catholic edition Bible: "Other ancient authorities omit verses 9-20. Some ancient authorities conclude Mark instead with the following: ‘But they reported briefly to Peter and those with with him all that they had been told. And after this , Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal life.’ "
But the Church canonized Mark and those last verses. Have faith that those verses are true and inspired.
po18guy
Well-known member
Very true! In fact, since not a single original bible manuscript exists anywhere in the world, and since all existing documents are copies of copies of copies of copies, we must trust and rely on the Church to know what is right. For this very reason, we break up the Lord’s prayer during mass. The final doxology "For thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory…) was not present in all ancient manuscripts. Thus, we do not join it together with that which it may not have been a part of, but include it in the prayer. As well, the written word is only a tiny fraction of God’s revelation. But, we live “on every word that flows from the mouth of God”, not just the tiny fraction that was written. So, we place our trust in the Church as protector of the deposit of faith.I think that this is a distortion; however, there is some debate as to the original ending about the last verses of Mark (16:9-20).
From the RSV Catholic edition Bible: "Other ancient authorities omit verses 9-20. Some ancient authorities conclude Mark instead with the following: ‘But they reported briefly to Peter and those with with him all that they had been told. And after this , Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal life.’ "
But the Church canonized Mark and those last verses. Have faith that those verses are true and inspired.
K
katholikos12
Guest
CAN I GET AN AMEN :extrahappy:?!?!?!?!
T
thistle
Guest
Why would anyone give credibility to such nonsense. Even Protestants do not believe this rubbish.
J
JerryZ
Guest
Jesus was dead on the Cross and the Centurion made sure of that.
When the earth started trembling at Jesus’s death, the Centurion ordered the soldiers to break the 2 thieves bones (the legs).
Crucifiction kills you by asphixiation, your lungs fill with water and you die. In order to stay alive the crucified victim needs to prop himself up pushing with his legs.
By breaking the legs the victim dies quickly (not what they aimed for)
So since Jesus was already dead he ordered the soldier to make sure and he obeyed by piercing Jesus heart with his lance. Where we read in scripture that:
Blood and Water flowed from the wound on the side of Jesus (the water was in his lungs)
“His bones would not be broken” Old Testament prophecy about Jesus death.
New forensic evidence on the crucifiction corroborates this.
Hope this help.
I
IesuMariaIoseph
Guest
I think JerryZ has finally closed whatever part of this case was open still.
C
CEM5
Guest
Don’t believe what you see/hear/read other than what is in Scripture and what the Fathers of the Church wrote. Those are the facts
Jesus had a spear driven into his lungs which pierced his heart. Fluid (blood and water from lungs) poured forth from this wound. The Roman soldiers were told to break the legs of those crucified so as to speed their demise. Since they found Jesus dead, they pierced his side to ensure that such a mortal wound “proved” He was dead - you can be sure. The Roman soldiers would not have been permitted to allow any of those crucified to remain alive.
He was placed in the tomb, and the entrance sealed with a huge boulder that weighed several tonnes. It was also guarded so as to ensure no one would enter. It took several strong men to place that boulder to seal the tomb. Jesus resurrected on the third day, and they mention his linens left there. No thief would take the time to steal a body and leave linens. No person, if not dead but leaving the tomb, would leave their linens, and impossible to remove the boulder.
Jesus is God incarnate, and He did not come to earth to marry, nor to beget any children. He came to redeem us and give us the gift of salvation and bridge the gap between us sinners and God in heaven.
blessings,
M
minkymurph
Guest
I too have heard this theory. Many theories have evolved concerning the person of Jesus. This is the latest one.
I suppose this theory is possible, but I would reject.
The first reason is if he was crucified it is much more probable he died than survived for the simple reason the Romans were exceptionally good at killing people, particularly by the method of crucifixion. If he had survived crucifixion, it highly likely he would have died from septicemia. This program says he may have been drugged, he may not have been clinically dead, he may have fled east…etc. It is equally possible if not more so he may have died. You don’t need me to tell you there are people who would say he may not have existed. It is equally possible he may have.
It’s possible Jesus may have lived some time in the east. We cannot ascertain for certain how long the Holy Family stayed in Egypt. We cannot know for certain they did not on any occasion live anywhere other than Egypt or Nazareth at any time. We cannot know for certain what age Jesus was when they arrived in Nazareth.
The bible doesn’t go into a lot of detail concerning Jesus childhood. In fact, I think Matthew is the only Gospel that says anything about his childhood? It has also been proposed Matthew, who I believe is the only Gospel writer that mentions the flight into Egypt, may be using ‘Egypt’ as a metaphor to make a theological point. I’m not saying this is right, but the purpose of the Gospels was to declare Jesus was the Messiah and the Savior of the entire human race. That is their significance. They were not written for the purpose of recounting accurate historical details concerning Jesus childhood.
To illustrate further, I grew up in Belfast but I have been living in Bangor, a town 14 miles from Belfast for 25 years. I would still claim to be a ‘Belfast’ person and a ‘foreigner’ in Bangor. I also spend a lot of time in County Fermanagh 100 miles from Bangor. We know he was not born on the 25th of December but does it matter we celebrate his birth on that day?
The other thing I would say is how do they know these bones they found were Jesus bones? They also say these bones were found in Jerusalem, he died in East yet settled in France. In which case he certainly got about, even after he was dead.
The thing to remember about theories is the most ridiculous theory can be made to sound feasible, and a feasible theory can be made to sound ridiculous.
P
patrick457
Guest
Slightly incorrect.
When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb. And they were saying to one another, “Who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance of the tomb?” And looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled back—it was very large. And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were alarmed. And he said to them, “Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.” And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.
(Mark 16:1-8)
It is now mostly undisputed that the original text finished at what is now verse 8, although it is hard to say whether the author originally stopped writing at 16:8 (and if he did so, if it was deliberate or not) or if the gospel had an ending which is now lost. Admittedly, this is a very cliffhanger-y type of conclusion - and more so in the original Greek, since it finishes with the conjunction gar (‘for’, ‘because’). Thus literally translated the text would run, “they were afraid for.” While we do have some examples from Greek literature where gar may end a sentence (it was not a common construction, but although gar is never the first word of a sentence, there is no rule against it being the last word), Mark’s gospel would be the only narrative in antiquity to do so, if Mark did intend to finish here.
As for the other gospels, no.
P
patrick457
Guest
You’re forgetting Luke.
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