Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

[Bill_Pick]

Jesus drank wine. That said, let’s look at the historical circumstances. Grapes are harvested in the fall, and Passover (the time of the Last Supper) is in the spring. Without refrigeration, grapes (and grape juice) do not keep very well. Within a few days after the harvest, grapes begin to ferment and/or rot. The only methods of preservation available to the 1st century citizen were to extract the juice and let it ferment under somewhat controlled conditions (this is called wine making) or to dry the grapes which resulted in raisins. At the Last Supper Jesus said “I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine” (Matthew 26:29, KJV). In those days they made wine from a number of different fruits but the wine of the grape, the “fruit of the vine,” was alone used at Passover. Since this was spring, and the Passover liturgy called for all participants to drink four cups of wine, grape juice preserved by fermentation (wine) was most certainly used or at least one of the Gospel writers would have remarked about the departure from the natural; as they did so often about all His other miracles. The prescriptions for celebrating the Passover called for the cups of wine to be diluted with water. This was necessary because the fermentation process made it rather strong and also because the vessels they kept the wine in were somewhat porous and the wine tended to become thick with age as moisture escaped. This is the historical background behind why the priest adds a drop of water to the chalice during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Wine not well protected from the air while it was stored became sour wine (vinegar).

 

[JonNC]

Jesus drank wine. That said, let’s look at the historical circumstances. Grapes are harvested in the fall, and Passover (the time of the Last Supper) is in the spring. Without refrigeration, grapes (and grape juice) do not keep very well. Within a few days after the harvest, grapes begin to ferment and/or rot. The only methods of preservation available to the 1st century citizen were to extract the juice and let it ferment under somewhat controlled conditions (this is called wine making) or to dry the grapes which resulted in raisins. At the Last Supper Jesus said “I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine” (Matthew 26:29, KJV). In those days they made wine from a number of different fruits but the wine of the grape, the “fruit of the vine,” was alone used at Passover. Since this was spring, and the Passover liturgy called for all participants to drink four cups of wine, grape juice preserved by fermentation (wine) was most certainly used or at least one of the Gospel writers would have remarked about the departure from the natural; as they did so often about all His other miracles. The prescriptions for celebrating the Passover called for the cups of wine to be diluted with water. This was necessary because the fermentation process made it rather strong and also because the vessels they kept the wine in were somewhat porous and the wine tended to become thick with age as moisture escaped. This is the historical background behind why the priest adds a drop of water to the chalice during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Wine not well protected from the air while it was stored became sour wine (vinegar).

Well said, Bill.
Jon

 

[rmcmullan]

I’m no expert but I have been told that unless it was specifically designated as new wine, it had been fermented, i.e. it was wine.

Mark 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

There are a few other references to new wine.

 

[Reuben_J]

What’s the idea of this thread, Bill? Just asking. The Bible says wine and I am curious if there is other meaning to it.

 

[LegoGE1947]

What’s the idea of this thread, Bill? Just asking. The Bible says wine and I am curious if there is other meaning to it.

It had to be wine because Welch’s process to preserve grape juice had not come along yet

 

[garth]

I appreciate your thoughtful answer. I was having a pleasant discussion about this very topic with a protestant friend just recently. He was taught that the drink was grape juice because the juice was from recently alive fruit representing life. Wine was from fermented dead grapes thus representing death. The point of the Lord’s Supper was to symbolize the new life in the new covenant. That was his argument that it must have been grape juice.

I’m glad to have more information to substantiate my belief. I told him that if you were having Christ, the Son of God, The King of Kings, over for a meal you would serve the best beverage you had which would have been a wine, not juice.

 

[Religio71]

What’s the idea of this thread, Bill? Just asking. The Bible says wine and I am curious if there is other meaning to it.

Well various Protestant churches use grape juice instead of wine, and the LDS Church (Mormon) uses water. So he is wondering why some use not-wine for Communion when Jesus used wine.

 

[pipper]

I’m no expert but I have been told that unless it was specifically designated as new wine, it had been fermented, i.e. it was wine.

There are a few other references to new wine.

Why do you think it was unfermented grape juice? It has been already explained to you that grape juice starts the process of fermentation immediatly (SP).

That is just one of the rules of God-created nature.

To explain further the naturally occuring yeasts on the skin of the grape start thier natural process of fermentation as soon as the grapes are pressed. The only ways of preventing fermentation are either refrigeration or Pastuerisation neither one of them existed until recently in the 2,000 years of Christianity.

Yes I know all about the “Word of Wisdom” but you don’t really have a dog in this fight anyway, for your church uses water in the sacrament and neither wine or grape juice.

 

[pipper]

I appreciate your thoughtful answer. I was having a pleasant discussion about this very topic with a protestant friend just recently. He was taught that the drink was grape juice because the juice was from recently alive fruit representing life. Wine was from fermented dead grapes thus representing death. The point of the Lord’s Supper was to symbolize the new life in the new covenant. That was his argument that it must have been grape juice.

I’m glad to have more information to substantiate my belief. I told him that if you were having Christ, the Son of God, The King of Kings, over for a meal you would serve the best beverage you had which would have been a wine, not juice.

Some Protestant fundamentalists consider wine to be taboo, nasty and forbidden. It came from the prohibition movement of the 19th century and culminated in the prohibition of any alcoholic drinks in 1920.

A lot of them still consider alcohol taboo. Witness the dry counties throughout the South where anyplace the fundamentalists gain a majority they sort of “ban” alcohol. But they make huge exceptions. I personally live in a dry county myself but if anyone wants a drink they can have it. For the moneyed there are the country clubs, Eagles, Moose Lodges, Shriners where any member can drink to their heart’s content. For those with less money they can just drive 30 miles to the county line. Of course the banning fundamentalists don’t consider the deaths from people driving to the next county and drinking all the way back home.

 

[wwolverine]

Well what about the first miracle Jesus performed by turning water into wine? Was that wine as fermented wine, or Juice?

 

[kalt]

Some Protestant fundamentalists consider wine to be taboo, nasty and forbidden. It came from the prohibition movement of the 19th century and culminated in the prohibition of any alcoholic drinks in 1920.

A lot of them still consider alcohol taboo. Witness the dry counties throughout the South where anyplace the fundamentalists gain a majority they sort of “ban” alcohol. But they make huge exceptions. I personally live in a dry county myself but if anyone wants a drink they can have it. For the moneyed there are the country clubs, Eagles, Moose Lodges, Shriners where any member can drink to their heart’s content. For those with less money they can just drive 30 miles to the county line. Of course the banning fundamentalists don’t consider the deaths from people driving to the next county and drinking all the way back home.

I know a few alcoholics who were drawn to these religions when they stopped drinking. It seems that they needed a religion that was strict on drinking–they needed the support of an institution that didn’t allow any drinking, since the rest of the world celebrates just about everything with a drink. Actually, everyone I know who has joined one of these strict churches had problems - drinking, drugs, and gambling. I know that there are members who didn’t have problems, but danged if I’ve met them.

It makes you wonder, though, if this is what is drawing them to the religion - not the theology, but the social constraints. They need the authority of the institution telling them not to party at all. No gambling at all. No drinking at all.

If it’s working for them…

 

[kalt]

Well what about the first miracle Jesus performed by turning water into wine? Was that wine as fermented wine, or Juice?

Wine.

I’ve heard some say that it couldn’t have been wine because there was no “time” for it to ferment. I wasn’t aware that miracles take “time”, though. I guess God can create grape juice from nothing, but can’t create wine from nothing. He has to make grape juice from nothing and then wait (in mortal time) for it to ferment, because, though God is great and all, it takes “time” to make wine.

That dead grapes argument? I guess if you can think of grapes as dead or alive, wouldn’t you have to say that grapes “die” when they’re no longer good? So, good grapes on the vine are alive. Good grapes in juice are alive. Good grapes in wine are alive. Raisins are alive. I’ve heard of fresh grapes, but not alive grapes.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Some Protestant fundamentalists consider wine to be taboo, nasty and forbidden. It came from the prohibition movement of the 19th century and culminated in the prohibition of any alcoholic drinks in 1920.

A lot of them still consider alcohol taboo. Witness the dry counties throughout the South where anyplace the fundamentalists gain a majority they sort of “ban” alcohol. But they make huge exceptions. I personally live in a dry county myself but if anyone wants a drink they can have it. For the moneyed there are the country clubs, Eagles, Moose Lodges, Shriners where any member can drink to their heart’s content. For those with less money they can just drive 30 miles to the county line. Of course the banning fundamentalists don’t consider the deaths from people driving to the next county and drinking all the way back home.

As the country group Alabama said once, many of those counties aren’t “dry” they’re just “damp”. Meaning there’s alcohol if you know where to look for it.

 

[bpbasilphx]

What do you get when you crush grapes?

If you answer “grape juice,” you gave the wrong answer.

You get wine.

Why do I say this?

Because fermentation starts immediately from the yeasts on the skins.

 

[cthulhubryan]

He was taught that the drink was grape juice because the juice was from recently alive fruit representing life. Wine was from fermented dead grapes thus representing death. The point of the Lord’s Supper was to symbolize the new life in the new covenant. That was his argument that it must have been grape juice.

Does this remind anyone else of “The Princess Bride” when they say that Wesley is not “fully dead” but only “mostly dead”

Recently alive is just another phrase for dead.

Now, if you take the argument seriously that it must be grape juice (I have fun with our minister about this) then because the grapes were only “mostly dead” then the juice should not be considered “alive” but rather “undead” Therefore if you believe that Jesus made grape juice instead of wine then instead of being raised from the dead (as wine is brought about from “fully dead” grapes) Jesus was only “mostly dead” and He arose as the “undead”.

Therefore if you believe it was grape juice you must also acknowledge that you are worshiping a zombie and not God.

 

[Bill_Pick]

What’s the idea of this thread, Bill? Just asking. The Bible says wine and I am curious if there is other meaning to it.

Well My daughter is a Baptist and she was telling my grandkids it was grape juice and it up set me because we all know it was wine,do you think Our Lord made grape juice at the wedding at cana

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Jesus drank wine. That said, let’s look at the historical circumstances. Grapes are harvested in the fall, and Passover (the time of the Last Supper) is in the spring. Without refrigeration, grapes (and grape juice) do not keep very well. Within a few days after the harvest, grapes begin to ferment and/or rot. The only methods of preservation available to the 1st century citizen were to extract the juice and let it ferment under somewhat controlled conditions (this is called wine making) or to dry the grapes which resulted in raisins. At the Last Supper Jesus said “I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine” (Matthew 26:29, KJV). In those days they made wine from a number of different fruits but the wine of the grape, the “fruit of the vine,” was alone used at Passover. Since this was spring, and the Passover liturgy called for all participants to drink four cups of wine, grape juice preserved by fermentation (wine) was most certainly used or at least one of the Gospel writers would have remarked about the departure from the natural; as they did so often about all His other miracles. The prescriptions for celebrating the Passover called for the cups of wine to be diluted with water. This was necessary because the fermentation process made it rather strong and also because the vessels they kept the wine in were somewhat porous and the wine tended to become thick with age as moisture escaped. This is the historical background behind why the priest adds a drop of water to the chalice during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Wine not well protected from the air while it was stored became sour wine (vinegar).

Cut and pasted directly from here:

scborromeo.org/glad/glad.pdf

Scroll down to the question Did Jesus drink wine or was it Grape Juice?

Word for word - Bill, why not reference the article and provide the link. Why Plagiarize? Fr. John Noone is the pastor who compiled the work it is from and it’s copyrighted Bill.

You need to respect copyright.

Well said, Bill.
Jon

It would have been, had it been his.

Why oh why do some people insist on copying other peoples work and passing it off as their own. Can these people not think up their own questions, or answers, or make a worthwhile contribution, of their own?

Im sure they can, so I just dont get why these same people continue to plagiarize other peoples works. It lacks integrity if nothing else. What can be so difficult about simply posting the link where you copied the stuff from and give the original author credit.

Shameful.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Cut and pasted directly from here:

scborromeo.org/glad/glad.pdf

Scroll down to the question Did Jesus drink wine or was it Grape Juice?

Word for word - Bill, why not reference the article and provide the link. Why Plagiarize? Fr. John Noone is the pastor who compiled the work it is from and it’s copyrighted Bill.

You need to respect copyright.

It would have been, had it been his.

Why oh why do some people insist on copying other peoples work and passing it off as their own. Can these people not think up their own questions, or answers, or make a worthwhile contribution, of their own?

Im sure they can, so I just dont get why these same people continue to plagiarize other peoples works. It lacks integrity if nothing else. What can be so difficult about simply posting the link where you copied the stuff from and give the original author credit.

Shameful.

Yes it is a copy and paste if you look at the date it was some on my first post and I did it, kill me.,its the truth are you mad because it is the copy or because its the truth, DO YOU THINK ITS THE FIRST COPY THAT HAS HIT THIS BOARD

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Yes it is a copy and paste

We Know.

if you look at the date it was some on my first post and I did it,

The fact that it is your first post is irrelevant. You plagiarized someone elses work and it’s wrong and lacks integrity.

However, why that is even less of an excuse is on the 28th August, 9 months later, you started this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=371295

which follows the same formula of a direct cut and paste from another copyrighted source, as I and others pointed out to you on that thread too. That was only a few days ago Bill.

So what’s the excuse for doing it nine months later, when there are, in the intervening times, numerous other examples of you doing exactly the same thing, and being corrected by other posters?

kill me.,

its the truth are you mad because it is the copy or because its the truth,

I’m not mad at all. I’m simply requesting that when you copy another persons work, you credit them and stop passing off other peoples work as though it were your own. Simple. It takes no effort whatsoever to do but it would show intergity on your part.

DO YOU THINK ITS THE FIRST COPY THAT HAS HIT THIS BOARD

No idea why your shouting Bill. No it’s not the first copy and it wont be the last, but at least why dont you do the right thing and give credit where credit is due and not worry about others plagiarizing. That’s their issue, not yours. You do the right thing eh?

In relation to the ‘‘other’’ I chose only to communicate with you via the online public board, so:

Point one - Thank you for your remark which I will take as a compliment - I’d rather be a good protestant than a bad catholic

Point two - Gentle correction delivered in charity, not bashing

Point three - I believe The Word of God and the historical narratives on the matter.

God Bless.

 

[LegoGE1947]

What do you get when you crush grapes?

If you answer “grape juice,” you gave the wrong answer.

You get wine.

Why do I say this?

Because fermentation starts immediately from the yeasts on the skins.

How do grape juice bottlers keep the fermentation process from happening? Just curious. As a former Protestant I was taught Jesus drank juice instead of wine, etc. It was taught this by a minister who ran a rescue mission and had to deal with drunks a lot. (We found out recently one of his sons who also was a minister had a drug habit and died in an auto accident while driving under the influence).