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Gospel_Man
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The original Greek For Matt 13: 55–56, meaning is, They were Mary’s children, Jesus’s brothers and sisters,Not His cousins.
Matt 1: 25 proves Mary had sexual relations with Joseph.
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Matt 1: 25 proves Mary had sexual relations with Joseph.
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1voice
Guest
Well:
…“if … you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead” … Then …
You have already…
come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)
declared with your mouth (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)
believed in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)
repented (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)
experienced the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)
experienced grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)
have received the benefit of the power of his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)
have received his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)
are blameless where the commandments are concerned (Matt 19:17)
have spoken words that please God (Matt 12:37)
Have acknowledged that baptism (or whatever else God requires) will be done ASAP (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)
Shown that you are willing to obey him by eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)
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grandfather
Guest
Is this then something you have to do?
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LittleSoldier
Guest
It does appear to at least strongly imply it but the early Greeks didn’t differentiate between siblings and cousins as we do. I believe that has been brought up before in this thread.
Regarding Matthew 1:25:
And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name JESUS. For he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying: Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
[25] Till she brought forth her firstborn son: From these words Helvidius and other heretics most impiously inferred that the blessed Virgin Mary had other children besides Christ; but St. Jerome shews, by divers examples, that this expression of the Evangelist was a manner of speaking usual among the Hebrews, to denote by the word until, only what is done, without any regard to the future. Thus it is said, Genesis 8. 6 and 7, that Noe sent forth a raven, which went forth, and did not return till the waters were dried up on the earth. That is, did not return any more. Also Isaias 46. 4, God says: I am till you grow old. Who dare infer that God should then cease to be: Also in the first book of Machabees 5. 54, And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain till they had returned in peace. That is, not one was slain before or after they had returned. God saith to his divine Son: Sit on my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool. Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued? Yea and for all eternity. St. Jerome also proves by Scripture examples, that an only begotten son, was also called firstborn, or first begotten: because according to the law, the firstborn males were to be consecrated to God; Sanctify unto me, saith the Lord, every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel, etc. Ex. 13. 2.
drbo.org/chapter/47001.htm
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grandfather
Guest
Are you referring to Luke 23:43?Jesus, while on the cross, confirmed Paul’s assertion in Romans 10:9…
What does it really mean to believe in your heart?
The Good Thief seems to ask Jesus for salvation. “Lord, remember me…”, after he confesses his guilt, or tells the other thief they deserve crucifixion. 1 John 1:9 says if you confess your sin the Lord is faithful to forgive…" Would you say the story of the Good Thief on the cross confirms this scripture, that confession is necessary?
Jesus says, “You call me lord, but if you do not obey my commands, what good am I to you?”
Do you think this establishes that in order to be saved obedience to the Lord is necessary, in addition to what Paul states in Romans? Or does believing in your heart imply obedience?
Is it ok to take a verse of scripture related to salvation and ignore all the others related to salvation? If believing in your heart means doing all those other things then none of them are stand alone. They do not exclude one another. They are all harmonized.
Jesus tells His apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel of repentance for forgiveness of sins. Based on this scripture is repentance necessary for salvation? Did Jesus on the cross contradict himself by promising the good thief paradise without repentance? Or, did the Good Thief repent?
Those who site Romans 10 say, this is ALL you need to do. First, they are saying it is something you need to do, a work. Are they preaching works salvation then? Second, Paul does not say this is ALL you need to do. If he did he would be contradicting scripture that says repentance, obedience, is necessary. It is a package deal. It all comes together.
Here is what we will agree on. Jesus knows our hearts. If our hearts are right we are saved. The Good Thief’s heart was right. Jesus knew it. The Good Thief did not know it. He did not know he would be saved. He asked of Jesus a humble request and Jesus promised Him paradise.
Let’s ask ourselves, what does it take to make our hearts right. Do we want to do all that Jesus asks of us, because we claim He is Lord, or do we want to skate by with the least possible? Are we looking for the easy pass, the minimalist approach, or do we want to surrender everything to His dominion and lordship? Do we need to?
Paul who said if you confess with your lips and believe in your heart, gave his entire life to the Lord. He was no minimalist. The Good Thief did not give his entire life to the Lord in one sense, but He gave himself entirely to the Lord in his last hour, harmonizing another scripture where Jesus says those who come in the last hour receive the same pay as those who come earlier.
The Thief acknowledged Jesus as Lord, but also acknowledged something about himself. “We deserve this just punishment”.
If our hearts are right we acknowledge more than who God is. We acknowledge who we are. I am a wretch. I am a fool. I am the prodigal who says I do not deserve to be called your creature. I have disgraced your name Father.
I do not have the power to make my heart right. Jesus does. If I did I would not need Him.
With the Good Thief I insist that I deserve just punishment. But I don’t decide what I get. Jesus does. Mercy would not be mercy if we deserved it.
Paul and the Good Thief are a great study. Juxtaposed, Paul served the Lord many years. The Thief came at the last hour. Both knew what they deserved.
Before we give a quick reply on whether we believe in our hearts that Jesus is Lord, we should really ask what that means, what it entails. How do we know if we have this heart faith? I confess with my mouth. That is easy. But do I believe in my heart?
Cor is Latin for heart. The heart was seen as the core of our being, our deepest inner self. Jesus says He will enter that place in us. What external evidence will we see of what we believe in our hearts?
We will forgive. We will confess. We will repent. We will love. We will show and know mercy. We will obey. All of these things come out of our hearts as evidence or signs or fruits of this belief in our hearts. If I examine myself and see these things I can say I believe in my heart.
If we see lies, ill will, lust, greed, vengance and envy we know our hearts are not right.
Which is it?
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GaryTaylor
Guest
1voice
Where in the Bible does it “specifically” state that Jesus stated “JUST PRAY TO ME AND YOU SINS ARE FORGIVEN”
Why take a verse of scripture related to salvation and ignore all the others related to salvation?
Or more important “why” misunderstand and misrepresent the entire NT? The entire NT is based on ONE COVENANT. The New and Everlasting Covenant is the NT. Matthew spoke on it and it is established immediately in Matthew from chapter one, Mark, Luke, John and Paul spoke on it.
How is it you seem to miss this?
Where in the Bible does it “specifically” state that Jesus stated “JUST PRAY TO ME AND YOU SINS ARE FORGIVEN”
Why take a verse of scripture related to salvation and ignore all the others related to salvation?
Or more important “why” misunderstand and misrepresent the entire NT? The entire NT is based on ONE COVENANT. The New and Everlasting Covenant is the NT. Matthew spoke on it and it is established immediately in Matthew from chapter one, Mark, Luke, John and Paul spoke on it.
How is it you seem to miss this?
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GaryTaylor
Guest
“Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . ‘brothers’ really means
‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.” Martin Luther, (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39).
Amazing even Martin Luther understood this truth.
‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.” Martin Luther, (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39).
Amazing even Martin Luther understood this truth.
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PRmerger
Guest
Can you tell me what verse in Scripture says this? One has to have been blameless (Matt 19:17) BEFORE one accepts Jesus into his heart,(using your citation)?
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Gospel_Man
Guest
This where people need to understand the Greek and the context.
For instance, The word save, [The Greek word is, Sozo] has many meanings and you have to knw what meaning goes with what scripture context.
In Matt 1: 21. It means saved from sins.
In Matt 8: 25, It means saved from the storm & sea.
In Lk 18: 42. it means healed.
As you say, The Greek for,Jesus’s brothers & sisters can mean siblings or Cousins
NOW As for Jesus’s brothers and sisters in Matt 13: 55-56.
The Greek meaning there is,
“Brothers and sisters from the same mother”.
Meaning Mary had other children, And Jesus had brothers and sister as the Bible says.
AS for Matt 1: 25.
The Greek word for, " Till", As is, "“Not til”, Is, “Heos”.
And the meaning is,
“Until”.
Meaning, Mary had no sexual relations UNTILL after Jesus was born.
Meaning Mary and Joseph had sexual relations after Jesus was born.
Forget what St Jerome said,
You can’t use the Old testament Hebrew and translate it to the New Testament Greek.
I noticed you did that in order to twist the Bible.
You cannot get away from the scriptures or the Greek unles you twist the Bible and the original Biblical texts.
SO, To answear the question, Did Jesus have brothers and sisters.
The answear is YES.
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Gospel_Man
Guest
For the truth, See my post, #128.
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Gospel Man,
The issue of “til” or “until” has been explained a long time ago.
This is one of the explanations from a link I posted earlier:
". . . . .1. There is the inference, that the mother of our Lord had other children than Jesus, derived from the word “till” and the word “first-born,’” in Matt. i. 25. This is shorn of all force by the fact, that learned critics are unanimously of opinion-an opinion sustained by abundant citations from writers, sacred and profane-that the words in question are not conclusive on the subject. The meaning of a word is determined by its use: “quem penes arbitrium est, et jus et norma loquendi.” But the use of “till” and “first-born,” according to the force of the Greek idiom, is not such as to imply, in the passage in question, a second or third born child. . . . .
. . . . .The second presumption drawn from Gal. i. 19, that James was the Lord’s brother, in the sense of his mother’s son, is weakened by the liberal way in which the word “brother” was used by the Jews**. It may mean “half-brother;” it may mean “adopted” or “foster brother;” it may simply mean “cousin” or “near relation.”** If in any particular case there is no reason to doubt the exact relationship, we of course interpret the word in the proper and strict sense. But if there is reason for doubt, we are perfectly free to look for another interpretation. Thus, when we read in Gen. xxix. 12, "Jacob told Rachel that he was her father’s brother," the fact that the Greek for “brother” means etymologically “mother’s son,” or other arguments based upon the word brother, we readily set aside as of no weight in the case whatever. To ascertain Jacob’s precise relationship to Rachel’s father, we go back to Gen. xxv. 20, and find that he was only his nephew. . . . ."
Link: anglicanhistory.org/usa/mahan/james.html
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Great comments everyone, but I think it might be a good idea for someone to start a “salvation” thread, since this one is about whether or not Jesus had brothers and sisters. Just a suggestion from the OP (that would be me 
.)
Peace and blessings,
Anna
.)Peace and blessings,
Anna
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1voice
Guest
Quote 1voice:
Well:
…“if … you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead” … Then …
You have already…
Well:
…“if … you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead” … Then …
You have already…
I dont understand the question. The wording is confusing.
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Gospel_Man
Guest
For the truth, See my post, #128.
If Joseph and Mary didn’t have sexual relations, Why would Matthew mention it, Why would God inspire Matthew to say it??.
The Greek reads like this,
“Joseph Didn’t have sexual relations with Mary until after Jesus was born”.
And Matt 13: 55–56 were Mary’s children.
You can’t get away from facts.
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1voice
Guest
Well …1voice
Where in the Bible does it “specifically” state that Jesus stated “JUST PRAY TO ME AND YOU SINS ARE FORGIVEN”
Why take a verse of scripture related to salvation and ignore all the others related to salvation?
Or more important “why” misunderstand and misrepresent the entire NT? The entire NT is based on ONE COVENANT. The New and Everlasting Covenant is the NT. Matthew spoke on it and it is established immediately in Matthew from chapter one, Mark, Luke, John and Paul spoke on it.
How is it you seem to miss this?
Paul, the Apostle, who was mentored by Jesus and the HS, said …
“the righteousness that is by faith says … “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Romans10:6-9
… And Jesus confirmed Paul’s assertion when he spoke to the man next to him when he was hanging on the cross.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Thank you. You’ve explained it much better than I ever could (as I said in another thread - it’s ALL Greek to me!).
I’m not sure if I read it in this thread but if interpreted one way, doesn’t the Bible say somewhere that Mary (our Blessed Mother) had a sister named Mary? I know there are lots of Marys in the NT but I would think her parents could have come up with another name for Mary’s sister!
Or was it her cousin?
When I was a kid my family lived close to my aunt and uncle’s family. Between the four parents there were nine kids. And we all went to the same school - the same school that my father and my uncle and my other aunts and uncles (blood-related) went to. I think there were seven of them. One of our teachers was my Dad’s teacher when he was in the fourth grade. I am positive that some of the priests couldn’t tell which family we belonged to - we all had the same name and eventually we were ALL addressed by our last name. Some of the priests didn’t know if we were siblings or cousins or what. We were generic.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
I don’t know why but this is a difficult thread to keep on-topic. There’s already one offshoot thread (and it’s very active).Great comments everyone, but I think it might be a good idea for someone to start a “salvation” thread, since this one is about whether or not Jesus had brothers and sisters. Just a suggestion from the OP (that would be me
Peace and blessings,
Anna
I’ll do my best to remain on-topic.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I hear ya, I have good story I’ll send you when I find it about the thief on the Cross. I digress back to Anna and the OP for now though.
Peace
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Me too
… Anna:thumbsup:
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onemangang
Guest
I think you have inferred this meaning.
Matthew 1:25 25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her first born son, and he called his name Jesus.
It could mean just till that moment, anything after would be inferring and speculation.
Great Work on “heos”
Since we are focusing on the Greek word for “until”, lets figure out how this should be interpreted using your same reasoning from scripture
KJV Strong’s G2193 matches the Greek ἕως (heōs).
“until*” AND “G2193”
Matthew 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Unti 2193 seven times: but, Until 2193 seventy times seven.
So I guess after 490 times we no longer need to forgive one another?
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you : and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto 2193 the end of the world. Amen.
So, Jesus isn’t going to be with us after the end of the world?
Didn’t Jesus speak Aramaic?
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