Did Jesus have Brothers?

[Mickey]

BrianH:

Burden of proof?!?!
So…I am to read all this and the logical conclusion was cousin?
No…you would have to have a reason to think otherwise.

The folowing article from the Orthodox Church should address most of your inquiries:

goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article9174.asp

 

[BrianH]

Mickey:

Consider that the poetically parallel incident of the Lord’s entry through the east gate of the Temple (in Ezekiel 43—44) prompts the call: “This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it, for the Lord God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut” (44:2).

Proves nothing, if I found a verse which spoke on an open gate? Lets not…

 

[BrianH]

Mickey:

The folowing article from the Orthodox Church should address most of your inquiries:

goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article9174.asp

Mickey, I have read all the arguments…and follow me on this…why the Bible does not really mean what it says…and that is my point…you can…try…to argue against it.

If you were just reading the Bible, you would not reach the conclusion ,independent of the bias that is taken into it, that these verses mean cousin. Would you read all of this and say…“yep, all that REALLY means cousin”. Disagree that is what it means but do not think the Bible proves otherwise! See what I mean?
BH

 

[Mickey]

BrianH:

If you were just reading the Bible, you would not reach the conclusion ,independent of the bias that is taken into it, that these verses mean cousin. BH

Bingo! That’s why we have a 2000 year old Sacred Tradition to tell us the True meaning. The deepest wells have the clearest water. Our discussions always boil down to interpretation. You read the Bible and see “brothers”. I read the Bible and I know that they are not other children of The Blessed Virgin. This has been the belief right through Luther and Calvin. When did it change? Who changed it? Pious intelligent men have read the Bible for hundreds of years. Why have they not gleaned the understanding that you have? Did you get your understanding from someone else perhaps? Maybe a pastor? Or perhaps you should gain a better understanding of the Greek Septuagint.

If you have read all the “arguments” (I prefer explanations), and you still don’t accept this, then there is not much that can be proposed to you. May the peace of our Lord be always with you.

Mickey

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

thistle:

Where is this traditional belief apart from in the Protoevangelium of James. Same goes for Joseph having children who would have been step brothers of Jesus. There is no other documented or oral tradition to support this. If there is please tell me what it is and I will stand corrected.
We know Mary was a perpetual virgin so Jesus has no siblings. As I mentioned in an earlier post it would not make sense to entrust Mary to a disciple if she had several step-children who would have taken care of her.

Mary’s perpetual virginity is an oral tradition from the time of the apostles. It is part of the constant teaching of the church. I take it on faith that the Holy Spirit is guiding the church in protecting that aspect of the Truth from corruption. I don’t physical evidence, as I walk by faith, and not by sight.

 

[Mickey]

BrianH:

Proves nothing, if I found a verse which spoke on an open gate? Lets not…

If you had the benefit of Holy Sacred Tradition, you would understand that it is just one piece of the explanation you so desparately seek.

 

[NonDenom]

Why does it say in the Bible that Jesus had brothers and sisters if we believe he did not?

Hi All
The truth of the matter is, is that we don’t know for sure for it is not specificaly said in scripture. I know the Catholic view on this.
The real question is, why would it matter? Wheather Mary had other children or not doesn’t diminish her greatness, it doesn’t make her less of a woman.
Thanks.

 

[BrianH]

Indeed Mickey, we will leave it at that. I think it is important to recognize the Bible CANNOT be used to PROVE he did not have brothers…that is all. I appreicate the rest of your comments and the spirit they were intended.

BUT for any others when is the first piece of evidence that Christ’s brothers…were not brothers and I still have no takers as to why Catholics date the Proto. of James at 120 CE.
BH

 

[BrianH]

Scott_Lafrance:

Mary’s perpetual virginity is an oral tradition from the time of the apostles. It is part of the constant teaching of the church.

when does this constant teaching first appear, I really just need some dates and proof. I understand your point BUT…

 

[Ortho]

Scott_Lafrance:

Yes, it is. It lends to the integrity of Mary as the God-Bearer (Theotokos). If Mary is reduced to a common woman and simply a vehicle of procreation, it by default reduces the importance of Christ Himself. Additionally, Joseph, whom Scripture identifies as a “righteous man”, wouldn’t dare lay a finger on Mary, as she had a son who’s father was still alive. This was a Hebrew custom, and for a man to lay with a woman who had a child from aother man was considered scandalous. Since God is the father of Mary’s child, Joseph would not have even considered carnal relations with Mary. This Hebrew custom, along with the traditional belief that Mary was a consecrated temple virgin, lends more credibility to the belief that Joseph was an older widower who was selected to be Mary’s guardian. Joseph probably had children of his own, and these would be called Jesus’ brothers, as Aramaic had no was of distinguishing between brothers, half-brothers, step-brothers, cousin, kinsmen, or even close friends.

Why denigrate a women for being a mother? Is that a lowly status? Do we look upon women as being “simply vehicles for procreation?” If a woman becomes a simple vehicle for procreation after giving birth, what is she before?

What’s the problem with laying a finger on your wife if someone else is the father of her child? I can see there might be a difficulty if she was currently married to someone else. But then she couldn’t be married to Joseph. Is it wrong for a husband to have sexual relations with his wife because she has perviously borne another’s child?

Hebrew widows never married again? Is that in Jewish law? Law of Moses?

How can God’s importance be reduced? Why would God be less important if Mary had another kid?

However, why do people find it important? Why do they passionately care?

 

[Ortho]

thistle:

Where is this traditional belief apart from in the Protoevangelium of James. Same goes for Joseph having children who would have been step brothers of Jesus. There is no other documented or oral tradition to support this. If there is please tell me what it is and I will stand corrected.
We know Mary was a perpetual virgin so Jesus has no siblings. As I mentioned in an earlier post it would not make sense to entrust Mary to a disciple if she had several step-children who would have taken care of her.

How do you know Mary was a perpertual virgin. Is it appropriate for folks to be delving into her sex life?

 

[Ortho]

Mickey:

Bingo! That’s why we have a 2000 year old Sacred Tradition to tell us the True meaning. The deepest wells have the clearest water. Our discussions always boil down to interpretation. You read the Bible and see “brothers”. I read the Bible and I know that they are not other children of The Blessed Virgin. This has been the belief right through Luther and Calvin. When did it change? Who changed it? Pious intelligent men have read the Bible for hundreds of years. Why have they not gleaned the understanding that you have? Did you get your understanding from someone else perhaps? Maybe a pastor? Or perhaps you should gain a better understanding of the Greek Septuagint.

If you have read all the “arguments” (I prefer explanations), and you still don’t accept this, then there is not much that can be proposed to you. May the peace of our Lord be always with you.

Mickey

Were those pious and intelligent men allowed to express contrary views?

 

[Mickey]

Ortho:

Were those pious and intelligent men allowed to express contrary views?

Do your research.

 

[BrianH]

Ortho:

How do you know Mary was a perpertual virgin. Is it appropriate for folks to be delving into her sex life?

I am so glad to see someone else thinks this way…HOW WOULD THEY HAVE KNOWN… did Mary tell anyone? Why?
and…for the upteenth time…when is the first documented evidence? I am just asking…and…no one is answering…
BH

 

[Ortho]

Mickey:

Do your research.

How about Galileo?

 

[Mickey]

Ortho:

How about Galileo?

Do your research, kiddo.

 

[Brendan]

Gal 1:18-19 shows a great example of how the term “Brethren” is used.

" Then, after three years, I went to Jerusalem to see Peter, and I tarried with him fifteen days - But other of the Apostles, I saw none, except for James, the brother of the Lord"

Now there were 2 Apostels named James,

James the son of Zebedee and James the son of Alphaeus. James of Zebedee was beheaded in AD 44, so the only James Paul could have met was James the son of Alphaeus.

So unless Mary was an adultress with Alphaeus (which no Christian can hold to); the title given James as “brother of the Lord” was meant to describe that of close companionship, or possibly a family relationship such as cousin.

 

[Tom]

Ortho:

How do you know Mary was a perpertual virgin. Is it appropriate for folks to be delving into her sex life?

There are several good references on the CA home page, some of the threads are:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=93007
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=11145
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=91766
Her perpetual virginity is Scriptural. There is NO Scriptural verse in which any other than Jesus is called the son of Mary.

 

[BrianH]

Tom:

There are several good references on the CA home page, some of the threads are:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=93007
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=11145
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=91766
Her perpetual virginity is Scriptural. There is NO Scriptural verse in which any other than Jesus is called the son of Mary.

How many times is he called the “son of Mary”? Well lets see.
Let me see… if it would fit in any of these verses?

Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers **(WHOSE MOM WAS ALSO MARY) ** were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers (SAME MOM)are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”

Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers (WHO HAD THE SAME MOM), James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”

Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary**(AND SHE WAS THE MOM OF THE OTHER PEOPLE WE ARE ABOUT TO MENTION**, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon. Are not His sisters here with us?”

John 2:12 - “After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers(WHO SHE GAVE BIRTH TO AS WELL), and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”
Acts 1:14 - “These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.”

1 Cor. 9:4-5 - “Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord(WHO ALL HAD THE SAME MOM, and Cephas?”

Gal. 1:19 - “But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother(WHO HAD THE SAME MOM AS JESUS).”

 

[Mickey]

BrianH:

How many times is he called the “son of Mary”? Well lets see.
Let me see… if it would fit in any of these verses?

Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers **(WHOSE MOM WAS ALSO MARY) **were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers (SAME MOM)are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”

Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers (WHO HAD THE SAME MOM), James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”

Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary**(AND SHE WAS THE MOM OF THE OTHER PEOPLE WE ARE ABOUT TO MENTION**, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon. Are not His sisters here with us?”

John 2:12 - “After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers(WHO SHE GAVE BIRTH TO AS WELL), and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”
Acts 1:14 - “These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.”

1 Cor. 9:4-5 - “Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord(WHO ALL HAD THE SAME MOM, and Cephas?”

Gal. 1:19 - “But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother(WHO HAD THE SAME MOM AS JESUS).”

Wow! My Bible doesn’t have all those bolded words. Where did you get that?