Did Jesus have Brothers?

[BrianH]

MysticRose:

Actually Yes I already did by recounting the same thing in Acts to you, when it was recounted in Acts

It was numbered at that point and it was made known too that he spoke to them in the Temple which is also a common belief not only in Catholic theology but also in Protestant theology as well and that his is where they then asked him those questions … The number was 120 and that would have had to mean that Mary had 120 children, which would statistically been impossible …

Given these factors that
!) Christ was without a doubt Mary’s first born
2) Christ’s age at the time
3) the number of children in succession that she would had to had in a row keeping her constantly prgnant and still it would not add up to anywhere near that number

Also, if it was just his brothers and sisters or natural siblings that called him out then why was not Mary with them? She was with Jesus …

This also would have meant a violation of Jewish Traditions and Laws to then NOT transfer custody over to one of his blood brothers, and therefore, if his mother had gone along with it then would have put her own life in jeapardy as well considering that they could have then also done the same to her as they did to her Son for defying the Jewish Laws …

Actually I think it was pretty much squarely proven to you, but you chose to ignore certain posts that would indeed prove your theory wrong because then it would mean that you are wrong to believe that way about the Mother of our Lord to begin with, and it might mean that we are right about other things too …

Mystic Rose
Don’t take this wrong, Im sure you are a very nice person, I cannot follow you???

One point you seem to hitting a lot is Jewish laws and traditions, not to get too far off topic…site the specific customs and laws…which is fine
BUT Jesus redefined Jewish tradition…uh…constantly, you would agree? I appreciate the rest of the conjecture…but no one is still answering my question.
thanks
BH

 

[BrianH]

TamaraS:

Honestly, I personally don’t rely on the Protoevangelum of James for me to believe anything about Mary or Jesus. It doesn’t sound like a lot of other Catholics here do either. Honestly, if there was a writing outside of the bible that gave proof to these things, would you accept it? Would it really change your view ? ( I feel like your just looking for a “magic bullet” here.) Probably not, since you rely on the bible only (please forgive me if I’m wrong in assuming this. It’s just that from reading some of your posts that was the conclusion I came to ). So, in my opinion, this question isn’t really relevent.

Im sorry you do not like my question…uh…I am not Sola Scripture…but that is another topic…uh… I tell you what, even though you think it is areally irrelevent question…I promise to do something nice for some person this weekend if you will answer it
seriously, like give money to the poor…besides me, help me out Tamara

 

[Axion]

BrianH:

Not there…I guess all I have is some guy that Mark and Matthew found so important they listed him first as being a brother of Jesus…and a guy who matches that same name…and who Paul describes as a brother also being listed as an apostle. So you obviously have no problem with there being more than twelve apostles…which is good…but you have a problem that we do not know when it happened…the main thing for you is that IT IS NOT the guy mentioned twice before by Mark and Matthew?
Interesting
…

Gal. 1:19 - “But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.”

The Third Apostle James?

In order to allege that the Apostle James, “brother” of Jesus was a Son of Mary, you have to invent a shadowy third Apostle called James. Is this credible?

James “Brother of Jesus” is referred to as one of the APOSTLES by Paul in Galatians 1.9. Yet we know from Matthew 10:2-4 that neither of the Apostles named James was actually a Son of the Virgin Mary! One of the Apostles James, is however, the Son of ALPHAEUS, who most bible scholars agree is the same person as Clopas - already identified in scripture as Father of James and Joseph.

So if James “brother of Jesus” was an Apostle, he cannot have been a son of Mary.

One can argue that a **third ** James, supposed blood brother of Jesus, was elevated to the Apostleship at some time after the resurrection. However this presents a number of difficulties.

a) Why is this “third James” **never ** mentioned in the gospel accounts?
b) Why would the Apostles take a non-apostle as their leader in Jerusalem?
c) Why is the 3rd James’s elevation to Apostle not mentioned in scripture?
d) Why did Jesus give Mary as Mother to John, if this “third James” existed?
e) What happened to the “second” James, son of Alphaeus after the resurrection? If we imagine a “third James”, then James the Apostle, son of Alphaeus disappears from history mysteriously at exactly the same time the supposed “third James”, just as mysteriously appears.

It is obvious that it is James the Apostle, Son of Alphaeus, Cousin of Jesus, who is the Apostle and “brother of the Lord” of the early church in Jerusalem?

The “Third James” hypothesis doesn’t hold water.

 

[tdandh26]

BrianH:

Not there…I guess all I have is some guy that Mark and Matthew found so important they listed him first as being a brother of Jesus…and a guy who matches that same name…and who Paul describes as a brother also being listed as an apostle. So you obviously have no problem with there being more than twelve apostles…which is good…but you have a problem that we do not know when it happened…the main thing for you is that IT IS NOT the guy mentioned twice before by Mark and Matthew?
Interesting

Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”

Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

Gal. 1:19 - “But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.”

Hello Brian,
Are you saying that God cannot keep His creatures from engrossing themselves in sexual pleasure? Would not that same God who had those who entered into the holy of holies killed, not been able to keep his (Daughter, Spouse, and Mother) pure? Would not that God who said to even touch the Arc was punishable by death, have kept the New Arc(Mary) unstained?

God does not Change! We need to get out of our sex driven fantasies and see truth. Not some truth that we want but that Truth which has been revealed to us.

 

[TamaraS]

BrianH:

Hey lots of great posts since I last read…when is the first mention that Mary was always a virgin? A lot of mention of Sacred Tradition.

That’s because we look at Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture equally. One is not greater than the other. They work harmoniously together and do not contradict each other.
Also, I’m not trying to sound mean or anything, but why do other Christians even care why it’s so important to Catholics?

 

[tdandh26]

BrianH:

Mystic Rose
Don’t take this wrong, Im sure you are a very nice person, I cannot follow you???

One point you seem to hitting a lot is Jewish laws and traditions, not to get too far off topic…site the specific customs and laws…which is fine
BUT Jesus redefined Jewish tradition…uh…constantly, you would agree? I appreciate the rest of the conjecture…but no one is still answering my question.
thanks
BH

Show me one place where Jesus changed Jewish law. He did not, although He did refute the incorrect useage of that law. Just look at how Jesus does refute them, doesn’t He use other quotes from scripture to do it? Why would He quote from scripture to refute bad practices if He was planning on invalidating it? Or, have you figured out that God suddenly realized that He made a huge mistake on His original designes of worship that He recreated them. WOW

 

[thistle]

Scott_Lafrance:

Mary’s perpetual virginity is an oral tradition from the time of the apostles. It is part of the constant teaching of the church. I take it on faith that the Holy Spirit is guiding the church in protecting that aspect of the Truth from corruption. I don’t physical evidence, as I walk by faith, and not by sight.

I wasn’t talking about the perpetual virginity of Mary. The Church teaches she was ever virgin and I believe it.
I was asking you about the tradition you stated about her being consecrated a virgin at the temple. There is nothing about that other than the Protoevangelium of James which is not accepted by the Church as inspired writing.

 

[BrianH]

tdandh26:

Show me one place where Jesus changed Jewish law. He did not, although He did refute the incorrect useage of that law. Just look at how Jesus does refute them, doesn’t He use other quotes from scripture to do it? Why would He quote from scripture to refute bad practices if He was planning on invalidating it? Or, have you figured out that God suddenly realized that He made a huge mistake on His original designes of worship that He recreated them. WOW

tdandh
Do I say he changed law? I said tradition…ie “useage of the law”
Read again please

 

[MysticRose]

BrianH:

Mystic Rose
Don’t take this wrong, Im sure you are a very nice person, I cannot follow you???

One point you seem to hitting a lot is Jewish laws and traditions, not to get too far off topic…site the specific customs and laws…which is fine
BUT Jesus redefined Jewish tradition…uh…constantly, you would agree? I appreciate the rest of the conjecture…but no one is still answering my question.
thanks
BH

He did not redefine anything sorry to tell you …

Christ came to fulfill the Law not do away with it

therefore, your conjecture, is incorrect …

What he did was correct the improper use of the Law by the then Pharisees that were using it to Glorify themselves instead of God…Jesus himself lived by the Law… He honored the Sabbath … He practiced and Worshipped as a Jew … Because he was a Jew …

This is why it is also written that those that Live by Grace shall be judged by Grace but those that are required to live by the Law will be judged by the Law … These were the same Pharisees that had Jesus put to Death using Herod to do so as well, because they feared losing their grip on the people … It seems you believe that just because Jesus reprimanded the pharisees for their false use of Tradition that it then means he chaged things… He changed nothing … He simply told them that they were false in application.

 

[MysticRose]

BrianH:

tdandh
Do I say he changed law? I said tradition…ie “useage of the law”
Read again please

The pharisees had done this not Christ all He did was to then remind them of it’s original application … remember why Christ was sent in the first place because not only did we need a New Adam and a New Eve but because God had becom displeased with His chosen people because of the breakdown

 

[tdandh26]

You are correct Brian.
In knowing the old testament we can see what the future Church that Christ would establish would look like then, right?
-Priests (from levitical priests)
-Sacrefice (from animal sacrefice)
-forgiveness of sin (from sin oblations)
-Infant baptism (from circumcision)
-feast days (from old feast observances)
-hierarchial structure(from Aaron the Highpriest and his sons)
-etc.

 

[BrianH]

a) Why is this “third James” never mentioned in the gospel accounts?
He is…twice in Matthew and Mark as his brother

b) Why would the Apostles take a non-apostle as their leader in Jerusalem?
he was his brother
**
c) Why is the 3rd James’s elevation to Apostle not mentioned in scripture?**
I dont know. Why is the Immaculate Conception not mentioned?
A lot of things are not mentioned…did you know if you were to read the words of Jesus aloud…it takes less than 4 hours…and he taught 3 years…

d) Why did Jesus give Mary as Mother to John, if this “third James” existed?
Dont know…for sure…he was not there…and he was not a follower.

e) What happened to the “second” James, son of Alphaeus after the resurrection? If we imagine a “third James”, then James the Apostle, son of Alphaeus disappears from history mysteriously at exactly the same time the supposed “third James”, just as mysteriously appears.

A lot of apostles “disappear”? YOu would agree…James was around all the time, he was metioned in Mark and Matthew…but not a follower…If Jesus had a brother, you would agree that he would shot up the ladder if he converted??

 

[thistle]

BrianH:

Is the first mention the Protoevangelium of James? On Catholic websites, they like to date this as early as 120 CE. Why? What is the evidence? 120 CE defenders??? Any takers?

Hypothetically, lets even take 150 years after the fact…that would be…1856 by todays standards…interesting…

BrianH

Why do you keep bugging people about proving the date of this writing?
Its irrelevant when it was written or even who wrote it (which is also in dispute). This is a writing that has NOT been accepted by the Catholic Church as inspired and none of the Church’s dogmas or doctrines is based on this paper so what difference does it make when it was written?

 

[MysticRose]

If you are truly interested in trying to undserstand the resoning used by the Church and the Scriptural basis for it then i would look here

udayton.edu/mary/resources/virofmary.htm

 

[tdandh26]

I really really hate these debates about Mary, and here is why.

In the beginning God said “I will put enmity between you and the woman.” Enmity is a word which implies exteme hatred, total opposites. Why then, if Satan is the one to hate Mary so much, is she attacked so violently by people? Why attack her virginity, as if she being the mother of God wasn’t enough for her? The word brother is a word throughout scripture which is used to describe any relative. God is the author of all and Im sure He would want “The Woman” to be even more spotless than anything else in all scripture.

 

[MysticRose]

a) Why is this “third James” never mentioned in the gospel accounts?
He is…twice in Matthew and Mark as his brother

Scriptural reference please

b) Why would the Apostles take a non-apostle as their leader in Jerusalem?
he was his brother
****Supposition not fact and you need to exegetically prove this

c) Why is the 3rd James’s elevation to Apostle not mentioned in scripture?

I dont know. Why is the Immaculate Conception not mentioned?

Yes but there is enough mention of things to then reason them out where is any mention of this to even come up with this reasoning and you are harping now so as to find some hole … you are reaching IOWs

A lot of things are not mentioned…did you know if you were to read the words of Jesus aloud…it takes less than 4 hours…and he taught 3 years.

Trinity is not mentioned but I certainly hope you believe that …

d) Why did Jesus give Mary as Mother to John, if this “third James” existed?
Dont know…for sure…he was not there…and he was not a follower.

This question has already been answered

e) What happened to the “second” James, son of Alphaeus after the resurrection? If we imagine a “third James”, then James the Apostle, son of Alphaeus disappears from history mysteriously at exactly the same time the supposed “third James”, just as mysteriously appears.

A lot of apostles “disappear”? YOu would agree…James was around all the time, he was metioned in Mark and Matthew…but not a follower…If Jesus had a brother, you would agree that he would shot up the ladder if he converted??

Now you are the one not making sense

 

[TamaraS]

BrianH:

yes Levi, that is what most people say…it is not what this very site says though:

“An important historical document which supports the teaching of Mary’s perpetual virginity is the Protoevangelium of James, which was written probably less than sixty years after the conclusion of Mary’s earthly life (around A.D. 120), when memories of her life were still vivid in the minds of many.”

I am, as an addition to the brothers argument, am wanting to know why anyone would support the 120 CE date. People can believe that Jesus did not have brothers I suppose, what is the first documented source for that belief though?
Thanks
BrianH

I have read the Protoevangelum of James. If you are wondering why different sites (such as this one) say it was probably written around 120 AD, then you probably should ask whoever is the person that would have claimed that. Different sources may say different dates. I am no authority on that. I’m not sure how they come to decide when a document must have been written and I don’t believe the Catholic Church says we have to accept that writing. I accept the Marian doctrines because the Church Tradition teaches them to be true, I don’t think that we are required to have any opinion whatsoever on that document. And what I’ve studied the scriptures, the Marian doctrines do not contradict the scriptures (or any Church doctrine for that matter), and I think that while not all doctrines are spelled right out (such as the Trinity for example), I believe that implicitly they are there. That is why your question is irrelevant (at least to me). Even if the document wasn’t written until last year, that would not change what we believe or make the Church’s Doctrines untrue. Hope that helps.
-Tamara

 

[Axion]

a) Why is this “third James” never mentioned in the gospel accounts?
He is…twice in Matthew and Mark as his brother

No. A James, Joses and Simon are mentioned as kinsmen of Jesus, that is all. No child of Mary is identified as an apostle. No Apostle is a child of Mary.

**

b) Why would the Apostles take a non-apostle as their leader in Jerusalem?

he was his brother
Why would the 12, chosen by Jesus, given the Spirit by Jesus, and witness to His deepest teachings, take someone who was not one of the 12 to be their leader in Jerusalem? That is very unlikely. Such a decision and Jesus’s blood brother’s raising to the Apostleship would surely have been detailed in Acts, especially since Acts mentions the Apostle james prominently.**

**

c) Why is the 3rd James’s elevation to Apostle not mentioned in scripture?

I dont know. Why is the Immaculate Conception not mentioned?
Mary’s conception is outside the timeframe of the Gospels and Acts. “Brother” James’s supposed elevation to the Apostleship and immediate rise to leadership is within the timeframe.**…

**

d) Why did Jesus give Mary as Mother to John, if this “third James” existed?

Dont know…for sure…he was not there…and he was not a follower.
So a blood brother, who was not a follower of Jesus, is suddenly converted, raised to the Apostleship, (raising the number above 12 without divine intervention - as in the case of Paul) , and immediately made leader, above the Apostles of Jesus who had been taught and guided by Him. And nothing of this is mentioned in Acts? **
**

e) What happened to the “second” James, son of Alphaeus after the resurrection? If we imagine a “third James”, then James the Apostle, son of Alphaeus disappears from history mysteriously at exactly the same time the supposed “third James”, just as mysteriously appears.

A lot of apostles “disappear”? YOu would agree…James was around all the time, he was metioned in Mark and Matthew…but not a follower…If Jesus had a brother, you would agree that he would shot up the ladder if he converted??** As I’ve already said, there’s no need to postulate a third Apostle James, because the James, “brother” (kinsman) of Jesus, recorded briefly in Mark and Matthew is the same James the Apostle, son of Alphaeus/Clophas, (not Joseph and Mary), who later becomes leader of the Apostles in Jerusalem. The Apostles are still called “the Twelve” in Acts, and there is no record of another james being raised up.

We are also told that James the Apostle, “brother” of Jesus has a house in Jerusalem, where all the disciples met. A big house for the younger son of a poor carpenter from Nazareth!

 

[Ortho]

MonicaC:

I am sure you can find your answer if you do a search this has been talked about so much. We as catholics and by the way this was believed by the founders of Protestantism also, believe that Our Lady is the spouse and only spouse of the Holy Spirit so there for she could not have had relationships with any one else.

And the only thing we Catholics think is better than virginity is not being an adulterer. Which what you keep claiming of Mary my Lords Mother.

Monica

Sure. I could find an answer. One way to find an answer is to ask Catholics. But, as you did, they obfiscate and avoid the question. Why?

Was Joseph Mary’s husband?

 

[Ortho]

BrianH:

Hey lots of great posts since I last read…when is the first mention that Mary was always a virgin? A lot of mention of Sacred Tradition. When is the first time this was written down that we know about? Or…that the brothers of Jesus…were not brothers? Is it the Proto of James? Why do the Catholics contend that was written in 120 CE? I know Im repeating myself…but…

I wonder how someone knows how long something has been a tradition if it was not written?