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BrianH
Guest
Origen. 200 years later. goodness.
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thistle
Guest
There is no secret. All of your questions have been answered by various posters!
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tdandh26
Guest
Sure we could answer the question but why? Since it is obviously not your intention to find truth but rather only to propose your own, which you seem to find more acceptable than the one who is Truth. Most of the people on this site are very charitable and they submit themselves to the truth not the truth to themselves. Many people find this offensive and ridicule it, but Catholics rejoice when ridiculed for the truth, for in that they receive the same treatment that Jesus did from the pharisees. Not to mention that Jesus told us to rejoice when we are ridiculed for righteousness sake.
Oh, and yes he was because God had ordained Joseph to be the guardian of Jesus and Mary. Also how would it have looked if she had not been married hmmmm think about it the Jews would have stoned her for being an adulterer. Gods ways are so far above our ways as the heavens are above the earth. (Fr. Corapi).
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tdandh26
Guest
This is not about Celebacy, Paul answers that question. Rather this is about God choosing a vessel through which He would come into the world. This sort of reasoning is ludicrous, so by your reasoning John the Baptist had to be a sex crazed zombie as well since no human has the capacity to remain a virgin. The most holy mother of God brought forth your redeemer and you find it desireable to believe that her first thought was to hop in bed and get pregnant. Wow, Im not sure but I would wager that a person who had had God dwell within them for 9 months probably was sanctified to the point that worldly concerns didnt much enter into her mind. Or, is it that you cant imagine remaining celebate for God so condemn everyone who does so?
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BrianH
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Lets try this. I will try to word these so everyone could agree.
We know there were four people who were significant enough to be associated with Jesus:
Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”
Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
Are these the same four people? Seems reasonable? Well how come they are there now? Where were they at the cross? I have no idea. But lets keep going.
1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
Same four? Seems reasonable.
**Gal. 1:19 ** - "But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother
Where is another James called the Lords brother? This James is an apostle for sure.
1Cr 15:4 *And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. *
Who is this James?
Some have argued that James, the brother of Jesus, cannot be an apostle…because the Bible does not give that account…
yet
Rom 16:7* Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. *
"Greet Andronicus and Junia . . . who are outstanding among the apostles” (Romans 16:7): To be an apostle is something great. But to be outstanding among the apostles—just think what a wonderful song of praise that is! They were outstanding on the basis of their works and virtuous actions. Indeed, how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle.
John Chrysostom (344/54-407)(2)
Also notable is the case of Junias or Junio, placed in the rank of the apostles (Rom. 16, 7), with regard to whom one or another [exegete] raises the question of whether it is a man.
Pontifical Biblical Commission (1976)(3) "
The Catholic church recognizes these two as apostles…where is their story.
Lets keep it at that for now…more to follow
We know there were four people who were significant enough to be associated with Jesus:
Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”
Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
Are these the same four people? Seems reasonable? Well how come they are there now? Where were they at the cross? I have no idea. But lets keep going.
1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
Same four? Seems reasonable.
**Gal. 1:19 ** - "But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother
Where is another James called the Lords brother? This James is an apostle for sure.
1Cr 15:4 *And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. *
Who is this James?
Some have argued that James, the brother of Jesus, cannot be an apostle…because the Bible does not give that account…
yet
Rom 16:7* Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. *
"Greet Andronicus and Junia . . . who are outstanding among the apostles” (Romans 16:7): To be an apostle is something great. But to be outstanding among the apostles—just think what a wonderful song of praise that is! They were outstanding on the basis of their works and virtuous actions. Indeed, how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle.
John Chrysostom (344/54-407)(2)
Also notable is the case of Junias or Junio, placed in the rank of the apostles (Rom. 16, 7), with regard to whom one or another [exegete] raises the question of whether it is a man.
Pontifical Biblical Commission (1976)(3) "
The Catholic church recognizes these two as apostles…where is their story.
Lets keep it at that for now…more to follow
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tdandh26
Guest
I have read the fathers of the Church and they emphatically agree that Mary was a perpetual virgin and for that matter they say that Joseph was as well. This is a fact, look it up, I would but it would take me a while and I may tomorrow for you.
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Ortho
Guest
Actually, they were avoided by everyone except Scott Waddell. I suspect many people have an emotional attachment to the notion that Mary was always a virgin, but don’t know why they feel that way.
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Ortho
Guest
Does all that say Joseph was Mary’s husband?
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NonDenom
Guest
WHAT?
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Ortho
Guest
So, you disagree with Pius XII when he said, "The doctrine of the excellence of virginity and of celibacy, and of their superiority over the married state, was…revealed by our Divine Redeemer…; so too, it was solemnly defined as a dogma of divine faith by the holy Council of Trent"
Not sure why you suggest John the Baptist was a sex crazed zombie? You think he was? Who else?
I said nothing about her first thought being to jump into bed and get pregnant. That idea comes from you. Interesting.
I wonder if Mary ate breakfast? Would she have abandoned that worldly concern since she carried God for nine months? Lunch? Sunny days?
Who did I condemn for being celebate?
So, why don’t you tell us why it is so important to many Catholics that Mary was always a virgin. You say it is not about celebacy, so what is it about?
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Ortho
Guest
How do they know?
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BrianH
Guest
It appears the first documented mention of this belief is 200 years after Jesus was conceived…uh…1806…
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BrianH
Guest
Tdandh
You answered all the questions, from your perspective, but the last…who is this James? So important of a person that the earliest tradition, prior the gospels most scholars would agree, that Jesus appeared to?
You answered all the questions, from your perspective, but the last…who is this James? So important of a person that the earliest tradition, prior the gospels most scholars would agree, that Jesus appeared to?
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thistle
Guest
In case I’ve missed it in the threads, what James are you talking about that appeared to Jesus?
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BrianH
Guest
Post 124 Thistle. Yes, VERY hard to keep up, if anyone actually answered all the questions…they would be guilty of ignoring their family!!
BH
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BrianH
Guest
We know that we have earlier tradition from Hegesippus(via Eusebius) calling him simply the brother of Jesus, as well as Jude I might add, that predates any verifiable tradition of Mary’s perpetual virginity…as far as anyone has shown me.
"James, the Lord’s brother, succeeds to the government of the Church, in conjunction with the apostles."
“There still survived of the kindred of the Lord the grandsons of Judas, who according to the flesh was called his brother.”
BH
"James, the Lord’s brother, succeeds to the government of the Church, in conjunction with the apostles."
“There still survived of the kindred of the Lord the grandsons of Judas, who according to the flesh was called his brother.”
BH
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thistle
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mosher
Guest
Through the “sensus fidei” and documentation from Apostolic Men or the Church Fathers.
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BrianH
Guest
thistle said:
Thistle,
Do you realize you just posted a link that supports what I am saying about James?!?!?
"James, the brother of the Lord – Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3; Galatians 1:19. Without a shadow of doubt, he must be identified with the James of Galatians 2:2 and 2:9; Acts 12:17, 15:13 sqq. and 21:18; and I Corinthians 15:7. "
So…I am right according to this Catholic site …
BH
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Ortho
Guest
Sensus fidei = sense of the faith? What’s that?
I’d agree that written documentation is a good source.
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