Did Jesus have Faith?

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Now again one can take “Faith” in the broader semantic way…and yes some propose other understandings of ways that Jesus could have had Faith …but I do not think that such are the case.

For Jesus spoke on his own authority …such as in the sermon on the Mount…and the New Testament never mentions him having Faith (as noted in the following book)

For anyone out there who wants to delve into Christology…this is good text:

scepterpublishers.org/product/index.php?FULL=564
 
zarthan said:
These are your philosophical and theological opinions. You have already admitted that Jesus Christ** trusted i**n God. Why do you waver like the sea?
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No wavering…trust does not per se = Faith

Faith contains “trust” but trust does not mean Faith in this sense per se.

Again always distinguish.

If I trust my lawyer it does not mean “I have faith in him”… like I have faith in Jesus
 
Jesus Christ trusted in the trustworthiness of his Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ believed in the faithfulness of his Heavenly Father.

If you were to do a word study of the Hebrew word, ‘faith’ as it appears in Habakkuk 2:4, you would find that many times it is translated as trustworthiness, faithful or faithfulness.
There is really no difference between trust and faith in scriptural terminology. The difference is in the definition we give to the words in our theological biases.
 
zarthan said:
Ever since the Nicene councils the power of the gospel has been decimated by the theology of the Son of God that would deny that he had faith, and trusted in his Heavenly Father.

Believe what you will, but I choose to believe in 'the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me" . “The traditions of men, have made the word of God of no effect”
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Thank God Nicea and the other Councils! They actually defended the truth against those who would deny the Divinity etc of Christ…they did not decimate theology…the were gifts.

I choose to* live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me*…in fact this is part of my prayer each day…this very verse. 🙂

Yes the traditions of men have made the word of God of no effect --quite often–just as in the time of Jesus walking the earth…and so I truly thank him for giving the Church the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach in his name in service of the Word of God…(CCC 85) …so that his teaching (etc) could preserved etc and be handed on down through the centuries so that* I may know him and have* life in his name I am truly thankful.

(I am thankful for everything of the Catholic Faith of course…)

I am also thankful for much of the work of many Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church…and for their example of Faith (there can be a great exchange of gifts among Christians…even though they are not in full communion yet…and even after!) They are my brothers in Christ…and together we “call upon the name”…
 
zarthan said:
Jesus Christ trusted in the trustworthiness of his Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ believed in the faithfulness of his Heavenly Father.

If you were to do a word study of the Hebrew word, ‘faith’ as it appears in Habakkuk 2:4, you would find that many times it is translated as trustworthiness, faithful or faithfulness.
There is really no difference between trust and faith in scriptural terminology. The difference is in the definition we give to the words in our theological biases.
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One must always distinguish…I refer you to past posts.

Give it a rest 🙂

We all need a break…
 
zarthan said:
Even so, the Son of God does not have perfect knowlege of God the Father. He did not have such knowlege while on earth, and he does not have such knowlege in heaven. Otherwise, he would know** everything **the Father knows.
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This would be in error considering HAURIETIS AQUAS ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII ON DEVOTION TO THE SACRED HEART MAY 15,1956
  1. It is, besides, the symbol of that burning love which, infused into His soul, enriches the human will of Christ and enlightens and governs its acts by the most perfect knowledge derived both from the beatific vision and that which is directly infused.
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and John 8:
[55] And you have not known him, but I know him. And if I shall say that I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar. But I do know him, and do keep his word.
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In reference to this knowledge, the most perfect knowledge from the Beatific Vision is directly related the union of Christ’s human soul with the Second Person of the Trinity which is expressed as Jesus being God.

In Jesus not expressing all knowledge: CCC
472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, “increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man”,101 and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience. This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking “the form of a slave”.
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473 But at the same time, this truly human knowledge of God’s Son expressed the divine life of his person. “The human nature of God’s Son, not by itself but by its union with the Word, knew and showed forth in itself everything that pertains to God.” Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father. The Son in his human knowledge also showed the divine penetration he had into the secret thoughts of human hearts.
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474 By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal. What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.
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It is in error to think that Jesus is lesser than the Father in His Divinity. It is also in error to think that Jesus must have had faith because He is lesser than the Father.
470 Because “human nature was assumed, not absorbed”, in the mysterious union of the Incarnation, the Church was led over the course of centuries to confess the full reality of Christ’s human soul, with its operations of intellect and will, and of his human body. In parallel fashion, she had to recall on each occasion that Christ’s human nature belongs, as his own, to the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it. Everything that Christ is and does in this nature derives from “one of the Trinity”. The Son of God therefore communicates to his humanity his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. In his soul as in his body, Christ thus expresses humanly the divine ways of the Trinity:
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It would also be in error to believe one’s own interpretation over and above the Magisterial Teachings of the Church. It is clear from the above that Jesus had all knowledge in reference to the Beatific Vision, He has all knowledge by being the Second Person of the Trinity, that Jesus’ Humanity was assumed by His Divinity and thus True God and True Man, and that to say that Jesus has faith is to imply a lack of divinity thus a merely human Jesus. Again from the Summa:
the object of faith is a Divine thing not seen. Now the habit of virtue, as every other habit, takes its species from the object. Hence, if we deny that the Divine thing was not seen, we exclude the very essence of faith. Now from the first moment of His conception Christ saw God’s Essence fully, as will be made clear (34, 1). Hence there could be no faith in Him.
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I don’t know if Jesus’ faith or lack of faith is dogma, but I am sure that His Divinity is, and if Jesus having faith is akin to denying divinity, then this insistence on Him having faith is heretical and is a serious matter to consider.
 
"But of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone

Matt.24:36 NAB
 
“Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. So what I say, I say as the Father told me.”

John12:48-50 NAB
 
“If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I”

John 14:28 NAB
 
“But go to my brothers and tell them, I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

John 20:17 NAB
 
Hebrews 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith, Who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (NASB: Lockman)
 
Zarthan,

Can you take the last 5 posts and summarize the relationship between Jesus and God the Father?

You’re beginning to worry me.
 
zarthan said:
Hebrews 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith, Who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (NASB: Lockman)
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What was the joy set before Him? Especially when you see that He endured the Cross for this “joy set before him”.

It would make me think that He had perfect knowledge of the coming Salvation that His death and Resurrection would secure.
 
‘Faith is the assurance of things hoped for’

And what is it that Jesus Christ hoped for? It was the joy that was set before him when he went to the cross, It was the joy that was set before him in Sheol when he said to God:

"You will not leave my soul in Sheol, neither will you allow your holy one to see
corruption’

This why the writer of Hebrews quotes Isaiah with regard to this trust (faith) that Jesus Christ had while he was in Sheol: “I will put my trust in him”

Indeed, Jesus is ‘the leader and perfecter of faith’
 
NotWorthy said:
Zarthan,

Can you take the last 5 posts and summarize the relationship between Jesus and God the Father?

You’re beginning to worry me.
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Just know that the word of God prevails over every attempt by man to explain the relationship that the Father has with His Son. So this attempt is feeble in comparison to the word of God.:

The only begotten of the Father, the Only-begotten is not a title given to Jesus who was born of the Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is the title of the Son of God who existed before time in relationship with God the Father. It is a subservient relationship among other things.
 
St. Thomas explained well in regards to this question…(see quote above) as have a great many Catholic Theologians over the ages…(Garigou-Lagrange stated in his time…that such was generally held by Theologians)

Christ “sees”…where as Faith is for those who do not see (Heb 11:1)

Now in some semantic understandings of the word “Faith”…such as trust…such can be said…(and other like ways…or perhaps analogically in some sense)

but it is not said in the Gospels nor I believe in the Catechism anywhere… that Jesus had Faith…

From the CDF a large quote which again sheds great light on the question…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7197785&postcount=67

For example: “The filial and messianic consciousness of Jesus is the direct consequence of his ontology as Son of God made man. If Jesus were a believer like ourselves, albeit in an exemplary manner, he would not be able to be the true Revealer showing us the face of the Father. …”

“…it is precisely the intimacy and the direct and immediate knowledge which he has of the Father that allows Jesus to reveal to men the mystery of divine love. Only in this way can Jesus bring us into divine love.”

He is the* witness* who has seen the Father…who knows him…who reveals him whom he knows…he is the witness* we* have Faith in!

And of course nowhere in the Gospels do we find Jesus being said to have Faith.or even in the New Testament as a whole…where surely if he had such would have been made very clear…just as was the case with so many persons in their pages…from Abraham to unnamed persons seeking the healing of Christ…

As to his knowledge:

Christ’s soul and his human knowledge

471 Apollinarius of Laodicaea asserted that in Christ the divine Word had replaced the soul or spirit. Against this error the Church confessed that the eternal Son also assumed a rational, human soul.100

472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, “increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man”,101 and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.102 This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking “the form of a slave”.103

473 But at the same time, this truly human knowledge of God’s Son expressed the divine life of his person.104 "The human nature of God’s Son, not by itself but by its union with the Word, knew and showed forth in itself everything that pertains to God."105 Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father.106 The Son in his human knowledge also showed the divine penetration he had into the secret thoughts of human hearts.107

474 By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal.108 What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.109

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm#III
 
I don’t know if Jesus Christ had a human soul.

I do know:

‘The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us’

John 1:14 NAB

I do know:

“I came down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of the one who sent me.”

John 6:38 NAB

I do know:

“ Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;

Isaiah 53:10-11 ESV

I do know:

‘You will not abandon my soul to the nether world, nor will you suffer your holy one to see corruption.’

Acts 2:27 NAB

Therefore, I believe it was the very soul of the Son of God who came down from heaven to do the will of His Father.

It was the very soul of the Son of God who learned obedience through the things which he suffered and being made perfect, became the leader and perfecter of faith’

It was the very soul of the Son of God that was made an offering for our sins.

It was the very soul of the Son of God who was in Sheol and became the ‘Firstborn from the dead’

This is my faith, for I do not have a human being who saved me from death and from sin, but the very Son of God who came down from heaven and tabernacled in the body like unto ours and overcame every temptation as us, yet without sin.
 
470 Because “human nature was assumed, not absorbed”,97 in the mysterious union of the Incarnation, the Church was led over the course of centuries to confess the full reality of Christ’s human soul, with its operations of intellect and will, and of his human body. In parallel fashion, she had to recall on each occasion that Christ’s human nature belongs, as his own, to the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it. Everything that Christ is and does in this nature derives from “one of the Trinity”. The Son of God therefore communicates to his humanity his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. In his soul as in his body, Christ thus expresses humanly the divine ways of the Trinity:98

The Son of God. . . worked with human hands; he thought with a human mind. He acted with a human will, and with a human heart he loved. Born of the Virgin Mary, he has truly been made one of us, like to us in all things except sin.99
Christ’s soul and his human knowledge.

471 Apollinarius of Laodicaea asserted that in Christ the divine Word had replaced the soul or spirit. **Against this error the Church confessed that the eternal Son also assumed a rational, human soul.100 **

472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, “increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man”,101 and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.102 This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking “the form of a slave”.103

I can not believe that Jesus Christ had two souls. This is not the teaching of the early church fathers. I think Appolinarius was nearer the truth.
 
This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, **“increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man”,**101 and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.102 This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking “the form of a slave”.103

In all due respect, if this is the reason the church uses to explain why the Son of God had a human soul, then maybe the church should go back to the drawing board. One does not create a doctrine out of one scripture. "By two or more witnesses, a thing is established.’
 
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