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zarthan
Guest
I don’t know which is worse, to say that the Son of God became flesh with a human soul only, or to assume (as I just did, that the Catholic Church teaches that the Son of God was a Divine soul who dwelt in a human body and a human soul)
Now at least, I know what the church teaches, and how she arrived at this conclusion. So, thanks for that information.
I do believe that when Jesus Christ said, “I came down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of the one who sent me.” that he was speaking of his own soul and will coming down from heaven as the Son of God and became flesh, and not taking on a human soul.
However, I would be unwise not to search the scriptures and see if what the church says about Jesus Christ having a human soul is true or not.
Now at least, I know what the church teaches, and how she arrived at this conclusion. So, thanks for that information.
I do believe that when Jesus Christ said, “I came down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of the one who sent me.” that he was speaking of his own soul and will coming down from heaven as the Son of God and became flesh, and not taking on a human soul.
However, I would be unwise not to search the scriptures and see if what the church says about Jesus Christ having a human soul is true or not.
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zarthan
Guest
Now the church teaches that Jesus Christ had two wills, but one soul?
c. Para. 475: Similarly, at the sixth ecumenical council, Constantinople III in 681, the Church confessed that Christ possesses two wills and two natural operations, divine and human. They are not opposed to each other, but cooperate in such a way that the Word made flesh willed humanly in obedience to his Father all that he had decided divinely with the Father and the Holy Spirit for our salvation (Cf. Council of Constantinople III [681]: DS 556-559). Christ’s human will “does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will” (Council of Constantinople III: DS 556).
c. Para. 475: Similarly, at the sixth ecumenical council, Constantinople III in 681, the Church confessed that Christ possesses two wills and two natural operations, divine and human. They are not opposed to each other, but cooperate in such a way that the Word made flesh willed humanly in obedience to his Father all that he had decided divinely with the Father and the Holy Spirit for our salvation (Cf. Council of Constantinople III [681]: DS 556-559). Christ’s human will “does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will” (Council of Constantinople III: DS 556).
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zarthan
Guest
“God is not the author of confusion”
1 Corinth. 4:33
1 Corinth. 4:33
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Earnest_Bunbury
Guest
LAMENTABILI SANE: condemns the following: 4. Even by dogmatic definitions the Church’s magisterium cannot determine the genuine sense of the Sacred Scriptures. and 23. Opposition may, and actually does, exist between the facts narrated in Sacred Scripture and the Church’s dogmas which rest on them. Thus the critic may reject as false facts the Church holds as most certain.
This seems the source of the confusion and error, Zarthan’s belief that the Church is wrong.
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zarthan
Guest
Lamentabli Sane does not apply to me in total.
I do not go beyond the limits of the Ante-Nicene church fathers nor the sacred scriptures:
"The fact that many Catholic writers also **go beyond the limits determined by the Fathers **and the Church herself is extremely regrettable. In the name of higher knowledge and historical research (they say), they are looking for that progress of dogmas which is, in reality, nothing but the corruption of dogmas. "
I was given a gift from our gracious heavenly Father almost 40 years ago. It was a gift that He gave me independent of any denomination or person. It was due to the sovereign intervention of God himself. It was the gift to search the scriptures,to meditate and to be instructed by His Holy Spirit concerning the truths of our Christian faith. I knew nothing of the scriptures at the time. Only the words from my Catholic upbringing, ‘this is my body, and this is my blood’. At the time God gave me this gift, He spoke into my heart, “man will no longer deceive you, but I will teach you.” Later, I realized that this scripture is the one God wants me to embrace for myself.
“I write you these things about those who would deceive you. As for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, so that you do not need anyone to teach you. But his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not false; just as it taught you, remain in him”
1 John 3:26-27 NAB
Oftentimes the Spirit of God awakens me in the night and instructs me with His word.
It is a gift from God, I have nothing to boast about. I do read the ante-Nicene fathers for validation or nonvalidation of what I am being taught or believe that I am being taught. I do listen to those who place the Word of God above philosophical reasoning.
I do not go beyond the limits of the Ante-Nicene church fathers nor the sacred scriptures:
"The fact that many Catholic writers also **go beyond the limits determined by the Fathers **and the Church herself is extremely regrettable. In the name of higher knowledge and historical research (they say), they are looking for that progress of dogmas which is, in reality, nothing but the corruption of dogmas. "
I was given a gift from our gracious heavenly Father almost 40 years ago. It was a gift that He gave me independent of any denomination or person. It was due to the sovereign intervention of God himself. It was the gift to search the scriptures,to meditate and to be instructed by His Holy Spirit concerning the truths of our Christian faith. I knew nothing of the scriptures at the time. Only the words from my Catholic upbringing, ‘this is my body, and this is my blood’. At the time God gave me this gift, He spoke into my heart, “man will no longer deceive you, but I will teach you.” Later, I realized that this scripture is the one God wants me to embrace for myself.
“I write you these things about those who would deceive you. As for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, so that you do not need anyone to teach you. But his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not false; just as it taught you, remain in him”
1 John 3:26-27 NAB
Oftentimes the Spirit of God awakens me in the night and instructs me with His word.
It is a gift from God, I have nothing to boast about. I do read the ante-Nicene fathers for validation or nonvalidation of what I am being taught or believe that I am being taught. I do listen to those who place the Word of God above philosophical reasoning.
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Ron_Conte
Guest
Here is my theological argument:
The Sacrament of Baptism is of water and the Spirit.
John baptized many persons only with water, so his baptism was not the Sacrament.
John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance.
However, when Jesus was baptized by John, the Holy Spirit was sent upon Him by the Father. So this one baptism of John was of water and the Spirit. The other requirement for a valid Baptism is a Trinitarian formula. Since the Father spoke and sent the Spirit uppon the Son, the requirement that a valid Baptism be Trinitarian is fulfilled. Nothing else is lacking. All that the Church teaches is necessary and sufficient for a valid Sacrament of Baptism was present, therefore, Christ received a valid Sacrament of Baptism.
Jesus did not need to repent, so He had no need of a baptism of repentance.
Jesus did not need to be Baptized with the Sacrament, since His human nature had sanctifying grace from the Incarnation. But it was fitting for Him to receive the Sacrament, so that His human soul would have the indelible character just as all His baptized followers have, and so that He would be an example to us all that we should follow, also receiving Baptism. Furthermore, Baptism is the sign of entrance into the Body of Christ, and so it is fitting for Christ Himself, as the head of the body, so also have receive the same Baptism.
Finally, it is absurd to claim that the baptism received by Jesus, was not the Baptism that is of Jesus. As our high priest, Jesus could not have receive the lesser non-Sacramental baptism of John, but only the full Sacrament that proceeds from His side on the Cross.
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Bookcat
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What the Church teaches is completely in line with the Scriptures…not worries there
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Bookcat
Guest
It is not absurd to claim that the “Baptism of John” that Jesus received was the Baptism of John…for such is what it was.
Jesus did not receive the Sacrament of Baptism …
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Earnest_Bunbury
Guest
St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa states the Baptism of Jesus was not a sacrament at that time.
ST. 3: 38, A1
In relation to Jesus needing baptism, the Catholic Encyclopedia states:
); nor did He ever increase in these gifts or this sanctifying grace. For so to increase would be to become more pleasing to the Divine Majesty; and this were impossible in Christ. Hence St. Luke meant (ii, 52) that Christ showed more and more day after day the effects of grace in His outward bearing.
I really don’t know what effect it has on someone to be in error on these points, but the Church has gone to great lengths over the centuries to be very accurate in the theological definitions of Jesus. It is important in that who Jesus is directly relates to what we should do in imitation of Him in that Jesus came to show us God. Getting Jesus wrong means we get God wrong.
[/quote]
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Bookcat
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Jesus said …“those who hear you hear me”…and “the gates of hell will not prevail against it (the Church he founded)” etc --he did not then add… “until the 4th century”…
Turning to the 1 Letter of John
John assumes that those whom is writing the words quoted above to are remaining within the Church…as opposed to those he warned against in this letter…who “went out from us”…instead of “continuing with us” (see 1 John 2:19).
His words were written for those who remained in the Church. He presumes the community of the Church…
…as did too the Anti-Nicene Fathers…such as Ignatius of Antioch for example: “Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop.”(Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]) and “Indeed, when you submit to the bishop as you would to Jesus Christ, it is clear to me that you are living not in the manner of men but as Jesus Christ, who died for us, that through faith in his death you might escape dying.” (Epistle to the Trallians [A.D. 110]). “Be subject to the bishop…”(Epistle to the Magnesians AD 110)
Or Irenaeus who wrote such as, “It is necessary to obey those who are the presbyters in the Church, those who, as we have shown, have succession from the apostles; those who have received, with the succession of the episcopate, the sure charism of truth according to the good pleasure of the Father. But the rest, who have no part in the primitive succession and assemble wheresoever they will, must be held in suspicion” (Against Heresies 4:26 [A.D. 180]).
Or Cyprian in the next century who wrote: . . “There [in John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. The people joined to the priest, and the flock clinging to their shepherd in the Church. You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishops; and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priest of God, believing that they are secretly in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and catholic, is not split or divided, but is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere to one another” (Letters 66[67]:8 [A.D. 253]).
Again may I wish you blessing from Jesus Christ the Lord…and in no way intend any offense…I am simply responding to the post and only intend the best!
All is meant with Christian love. (not “fighting words” as they say) Offering things from Gospels and the context of 1 John and some of the earliest Fathers of the Church on the matter that was posted here in this thread.(also I do not intend to say here that he can not work today outside the visible bounds of the Church…say in Protestant communities etc…rather I am referring to Johns letter…to what he wrote there… )
(Now…does any of this mean that Catholics do not recognize Protestants as fellow Christians…no …we recognize them as such (one can read the various documents on ecumenism etc)…and even those other Christians validly Baptized who are seeking God in other ways…they have often inherited the sad situation where Christians are not in full communion …but still what units us is still of great source of joy…above all Jesus Christ our Lord…we pray for full communion among Christians…and call them our brothers… My point was in the direction of referring to what John meant and what the anti-Nicene writers wrote… )
(Quotes from the Fathers quoted from Catholic Answers Fathers Know Best series etc on this site)
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zarthan
Guest
Everything you say is true as long as the community of believers is 'built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the the capstone’.
I can not force myself to believe something that is not taught by the early church fathers nor by the Word of God. On the other hand we all know this:
“If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if Ihand my body over so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.”
And, “If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him.”
My discussions regarding the faith of Jesus Christ is my conviction. It is my conviction that without his faith I will not be obedient to the will of his heavenly Father. My conviction is that the obedient faith of Jesus Christ will carry me into the bosom of our heavenly Father. Once in the abiding presence of the Father, I will then abide in the love of God himself, which is the only way of holiness.
As it is written in the Shepherd of Hermas in Book II, ninth commandment,
"You see, then says he, 'that faith is from above…from the Lord…has great power; but doubt is an earthly spirit, coming from the devil, and no power. Serve, then, that which has power, namely faith, and keep away from doubt, which has no power, and you will live to God."
And as Clement, the Bishop of Rome says, "Let His faith therefore be stirred up again within us"
And as Cyprian says as he quotes Habakkuk: 'the just shall live by the faith of me"
For myself, **the leader and perfecter of faith **will bring about the love that works through faith.
May the love of our Lord Jesus Christ bring us into true unity.
I can not force myself to believe something that is not taught by the early church fathers nor by the Word of God. On the other hand we all know this:
“If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if Ihand my body over so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.”
And, “If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him.”
My discussions regarding the faith of Jesus Christ is my conviction. It is my conviction that without his faith I will not be obedient to the will of his heavenly Father. My conviction is that the obedient faith of Jesus Christ will carry me into the bosom of our heavenly Father. Once in the abiding presence of the Father, I will then abide in the love of God himself, which is the only way of holiness.
As it is written in the Shepherd of Hermas in Book II, ninth commandment,
"You see, then says he, 'that faith is from above…from the Lord…has great power; but doubt is an earthly spirit, coming from the devil, and no power. Serve, then, that which has power, namely faith, and keep away from doubt, which has no power, and you will live to God."
And as Clement, the Bishop of Rome says, "Let His faith therefore be stirred up again within us"
And as Cyprian says as he quotes Habakkuk: 'the just shall live by the faith of me"
For myself, **the leader and perfecter of faith **will bring about the love that works through faith.
May the love of our Lord Jesus Christ bring us into true unity.
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wangboot
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Bookcat
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traillius
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faith is believing in the face of less than 100% knowledge. At least that is what I understand. Since Jesus was one with the Father, he had 100% knowledge of the Father. Thus faith was unnecessary, and also by definition ‘impossible.’ Jesus could not possess faith, since he would first have needed to be without complete knowledge.
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zarthan
Guest
Even if one were to accept your premise that knowlege precludes faith. Jesus Christ does not have 100% knowlege of the Father.
He says in the gospel of John that whatever His Father tells him to speak, he speaks. I take that to mean that everything that Jesus ever spoke on earth was initiated by the Father first speaking to him. Jesus had to have faith in the words of his Father to speak the Father’s words to his disciples, to the scribes, the Pharisees, to Herod, to Pontius Pilate, to the crowds and so on.
He also said in the gospel of John that whatever the Father shows him he does. I take that to mean at the time His Father showed him to heal the blind, the leper, the lame, to cast out demons, to raise Lazurus from the dead, Jesus Christ had to have faith in his Father before he accomplished these miracles.
Finally, Jesus says that no one knows the day or the hour when the Son of Man will return, not he, nor the angels, but only the Father in heaven.
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traillius
Guest
I didn’t mean Jesus had infinite omniscience while on earth. What I meant was that jesus had complete knowledge of the Father’s love and power, so that Jesus was able to trust the Father 100%. The only exception was that brief and horrible moment when Jesus felt abandonment by God " MY GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME? "
At any other time, Jesus had 100% trust, because no doubt existed, due to the unique relationship Jesus had with the Father.
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zarthan
Guest
Maybe this is where we are misunderstanding each other. If one was to do a Hebrew word study on faith, one would find that the word is also translated trust, trustworthy and so on. Most dictionaries will interchange the two words as being the same…
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JesuisSean
Guest
Jesus had faith in himself.
If you know yourself 100%, then your consciousness comes to a halt because the self catches up with the self. Therefore, it is a must that not all of the self be conscious all at once.
outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm
If you know yourself 100%, then your consciousness comes to a halt because the self catches up with the self. Therefore, it is a must that not all of the self be conscious all at once.
outersecrets.com/real/biblecode2.htm
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jovis
Guest
Hello gentlemen from a new user. I was having an interesting conversation at church today which wasn’t resolved and I came accross this very relevent discussion. But there is an extremely interesting element to the question which wasn’t clearly answered. Did Jesus do his miracles by faith? I am reminded of Peter walking on water and of another place in scripture john 14:12 ‘He will do even greater things.’ I appreciate the Deity of Christ in as much as I can comprehend such a mystery, so, did the Lord do his miracles in faith as a man?
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