Did Jesus have Faith?

[zarthan]

My thoughts on this subject is that when we die and go to heaven (God Willing!), then our Faith in Jesus Christ becomes knowledge of Jesus Christ.

I say this because I think it helps to illustrate that Jesus didn’t have “Faith”, but “Knowledge”. He is the source of our Faith, but that doesn’t mean he had to have Faith.

Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, is more than the source of our faith, He is faith, hope and love. When we abide in Jesus, we are abiding in his faith, his hope, and his love.
He doesn’t pull these ‘theological virtues out of a hat’, or wave a wand over us and sprinkle these ‘virtues’ on us.

When are we going to leave off the theological mumbo jumbo and return to living Word of God? “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.” “He is the leader and perfecter of faith”.

Believe what you will, but Jesus Christ said, “I came down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of Him who sent me”. Jesus Christ had tremendous faith in the will of His Father. If we are ever going to do the will of our heavenly Father, we better have the faith of Him who did the will of His Father.

 

[Bookcat]

Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, is more than the source of our faith, He is faith, hope and love. When we abide in Jesus, we are abiding in his faith, his hope, and his love.
He doesn’t pull these ‘theological virtues out of a hat’, or wave a wand over us and sprinkle these ‘virtues’ on us.

When are we going to leave off the theological mumbo jumbo and return to living Word of God? “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.” “He is the leader and perfecter of faith”.

Believe what you will, but Jesus Christ said, “I came down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of Him who sent me”. Jesus Christ had tremendous faith in the will of His Father. If we are ever going to do the will of our heavenly Father, we better have the faith of Him who did the will of His Father.

Theological mumbo jumbo??? …come on… are you serious???

(such is decidedly out of place…)

anyhow…

The written Word of God actually no-where says Jesus had Faith! …

and…in addition to this …the other things asserted have nothing to do with the Bible…(“abiding in his faith and hope”??? where is that??)

Jesus knew the will of his Father…Jesus did not have to walk by faith (not seeing as Sacred Scripture says) but knew him…and his will…

Yes he is the leader and the perfecter of our Faith …he sees and we have Faith in him. He perfects our Faith…

But yes let us all have Faith in Jesus Christ the Lord who is the Son of God

 

[NotWorthy]

Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, is more than the source of our faith, He is faith, hope and love. When we abide in Jesus, we are abiding in his faith, his hope, and his love.

I can go with that. Very well said.

He doesn’t pull these ‘theological virtues out of a hat’, or wave a wand over us and sprinkle these ‘virtues’ on us.

When are we going to leave off the theological mumbo jumbo and return to living Word of God? “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.” “He is the leader and perfecter of faith”.

Believe what you will, but Jesus Christ said, “I came down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of Him who sent me”. Jesus Christ had tremendous faith in the will of His Father. If we are ever going to do the will of our heavenly Father, we better have the faith of Him who did the will of His Father.

But then you had to go there. C’mon, man!

I simply wanted to open up a discussion, and that doesn’t mean it needs to lead to an argument.

 

[zarthan]

I can go with that. Very well said.
But then you had to go there. C’mon, man!

I simply wanted to open up a discussion, and that doesn’t mean it needs to lead to an argument.

I apologize if I have offended anyone with the theological mumbo jumbo talk. You see, I really do believe that the Word of God is sharper than a two-edged sword. Yet, so much of modern theology seems to me to be legalistic , philisophical word scrambling. There is much truth in the Catechism, but oftentimes the Word of God is lost in the multitude of the words of man.The early church fathers quoted scriptures when defending their faith, and I mean quoted. The further in time that the church developed from the apostles, and their disciples the further they left off from scriptures and adopted philisophical thought. Sure, the catechism cites scriptures, but there seems to be more words of man, than there are Words of God. I just feel the power of God’s word is lost the more we put our own words into the defense of our faith.

“May the words of my mouth, and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in thy sight O Lord”. “Every word that man shall speak he shall give account of in the day of judgment, by your words you shall be condemned and by your words you shall be justified.”

 

[zarthan]

Theological mumbo jumbo??? …come on… are you serious???

(such is decidedly out of place…)

anyhow…

The written Word of God actually no-where says Jesus had Faith! …

and…in addition to this …the other things asserted have nothing to do with the Bible…(“abiding in his faith and hope”??? where is that??)

Jesus knew the will of his Father…Jesus did not have to walk by faith (not seeing as Sacred Scripture says) but knew him…and his will…

Yes he is the leader and the perfecter of our Faith …he sees and we have Faith in him. He perfects our Faith…

But yes let us all have Faith in Jesus Christ the Lord who is the Son of God

My apologies go to you, and the explanation of my feelings are found in post #44.
To say that Jesus Christ did not have faith because he knew the will of God does not explain away anything. Why do you think He prayed to His Heavenly Father? He prayed with faith, with trust to His Heavenly Father. The theology of words that developed out of the Nicene Councils diminished the reality of the Son of God, the scope of his salvation, and his relationship to our Heavenly Father. The church has never been the same since then.

 

[Bookcat]

My apologies go to you, and the explanation of my feelings are found in post #44.
To say that Jesus Christ did not have faith because he knew the will of God does not explain away anything. Why do you think He prayed to His Heavenly Father? He prayed with faith, with trust to His Heavenly Father. The theology of words that developed out of the Nicene Councils diminished the reality of the Son of God, the scope of his salvation, and his relationship to our Heavenly Father. The church has never been the same since then.

Accepted…

(Yes of course he trusted his Father…but this does not mean he needed or had “Faith”)

Well I very much disagree…and I do this as a great lover of the Early Church…(Early writings were one of the reasons I came into full Communion with the Catholic Church) …Nicea etc did not diminish things etc…and the Catechism is a rich document…full of Scripture…and Theology is a great gift (though your* miliage will vary*-- from theologian to theologian and period to period). Jesus founded his Church…and has been with it as promised …and he continues to be the perfecter of our Faith…and of course the Holy Spirit has been working…leading often into deeper and deeper understanding and truth…just has he said in the Gospel of John…

I really hope you read those links from Pope Benedict XVI …and also his various other homilies and audiences…very rich…

PS: Catechism

132 "Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology.

 

[zarthan]

Accepted…

(Yes of course he trusted his Father…but this does not mean he needed or had “Faith”)

Well I very much disagree…and I do this as a great lover of the Early Church…(Early writings were one of the reasons I came into full Communion with the Catholic Church) …Nicea etc did not diminish things etc…and the Catechism is a rich document…full of Scripture…and Theology is a great gift (though your* miliage will vary*-- from theologian to theologian and period to period). Jesus founded his Church…and has been with it as promised …and he continues to be the perfecter of our Faith…and of course the Holy Spirit has been working…leading often into deeper and deeper understanding and truth…just has he said in the Gospel of John…

I really hope you read those links from Pope Benedict XVI …and also his various other homilies and audiences…very rich…

PS: Catechism

132 "Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology.

Your resistance to Jesus Christ, the Son of God having faith is either because of our different understandings of the meaning of faith, or of our different understandings of the Son of God.

Catechism 132 “Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology”

Amen to that.

Now if every priest would preach that to their congregations, the Catholic church would have the best of two worlds, the holy Eucharist and the Word of God. Most Catholics I have known over the years have scant knowledge of the sacred page.

 

[Bookcat]

Your resistance to Jesus Christ, the Son of God having faith is either because of our different understandings of the meaning of faith, or of our different understandings of the Son of God.

Catechism 132 “Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology”

Amen to that.

Now if every priest would preach that to their congregations, the Catholic church would have the best of two worlds, the holy Eucharist and the Word of God. Most Catholics I have known over the years have scant knowledge of the sacred page.

Tis rather perhaps your personal interpretation… and yes perhaps cause you take a wider idea of faith more here as trust etc…but even then Jesus’ trust is not like ours…he sees. (not that trust is not included in faith…but in the theological sense…Jesus can be said to not “walk by Faith” (in the fuller theological sense…and scriptural sense) for Scripture says such is when one does not see…and Jesus sees…)

The Church DOES have the best of worlds but yes as with all profession…your miliage will vary from Homily to Homily…each person is more or less gifted…

As for Scripture and the adv. Catholic…there are millions of Catholics…and varying backgrounds…

But yes the Catholic Church urges and exhorts them to read Sacred Scripture etc…some however do not…as one knows…when you get a real big class…only a certain number do their homework…

Catechism:

133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.112

more: vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm#V

I can not wait til the next document come out…the Apostolic Exhortation of Pope Benedict VXI on Divine Revelation…should be a rich text…

also a great read: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20071114_en.html

(and it is supposed that he will do an Encylical on Faith…since he did hope and Charity…so that will be great too…)

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism:

I. CHRIST - THE UNIQUE WORD OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

101 In order to reveal himself to men, in the condescension of his goodness God speaks to them in human words: "Indeed the words of God, expressed in the words of men, are in every way like human language, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when he took on himself the flesh of human weakness, became like men."63

102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:64

You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.65

103 For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord’s Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God’s Word and Christ’s Body.66

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”.67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68

 

[Bookcat]

And this is wonderful…

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2008/october/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20081006_sinodo_en.html

a must read…

 

[zarthan]

Tis rather perhaps your personal interpretation… and yes perhaps cause you take a wider idea of faith more here as trust etc…but even then Jesus’ trust is not like ours…he sees. (not that trust is not included in faith…but in the theological sense…Jesus can be said to not “walk by Faith” (in the fuller theological sense…and scriptural sense) for Scripture says such is when one does not see…and Jesus sees…)

The Church DOES have the best of worlds but yes as with all profession…your miliage will vary from Homily to Homily…each person is more or less gifted…

As for Scripture and the adv. Catholic…there are millions of Catholics…and varying backgrounds…

But yes the Catholic Church urges and exhorts them to read Sacred Scripture etc…some however do not…as one knows…when you get a real big class…only a certain number do their homework…

Catechism:

133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.112

more: vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm#V

I can not wait til the next document come out…the Apostolic Exhortation of Pope Benedict VXI on Divine Revelation…should be a rich text…

also a great read: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20071114_en.html

(and it is supposed that he will do an Encylical on Faith…since he did hope and Charity…so that will be great too…)

My frustration began when you quoted the Catechism. "Theological virtues of faith, hope and love’ sound like something for theologians and not us plebs. Even the term ‘virtue’ has meant sometimes that which is generated by a saint. But what really irritates me is saying that they are ‘infused’. That sounds like something one receives intravenously, or through drinking some sort of herbal tree. Why can not they use biblical terms?

If something is infused how is it infused and who is infusing it? No, if we are united to Jesus Christ we are united to all that He is, including faith, hope and love. “Love bears all things, believes all things,** hopes all things**, endures all things.”

 

[Bookcat]

My frustration began when you quoted the Catechism. "Theological virtues of faith, hope and love’ sound like something for theologians and not us plebs. Even the term ‘virtue’ has meant sometimes that which is generated by a saint. But what really irritates me is saying that they are ‘infused’. That sounds like something one receives intravenously, or through drinking some sort of herbal tree. Why can not they use biblical terms?

If something is infused how is it infused and who is infusing it? No, if we are united to Jesus Christ we are united to all that He is, including faith, hope and love. “Love bears all things, believes all things,** hopes all things**, endures all things.”

Well…I would suggest honestly just reading it is a rich text…it is not for just Theologians…(though I do count myself as a theologian of sorts……)

The three are infused – by the Holy Spirit–starting normally at Baptism…of the littlest persons…

Ya…lets get rid of words like Trinity…etc…which are not in the Bible…

of course not!..one need not restrict oneself to Biblical terms…

“No, if we are united to Jesus Christ we are united to all that He is, including faith, hope and love.”

oh…there again you go adding a personal interpretation…a “personal theology” to the Scriptures…tisk tisk…to keep with your your own trajectory

sorry such is not there in the Sacred Scriptures…

But yes a Christian is united to Christ…and is given the three theological virtues by the Holy Spirit…

Lets not be “contra-theology” one second and engage personally in it the next

of course all said with charity

 

[Bookcat]

Really hope you read the links I posted…like the last one…very rich.

 

[Bookcat]

From the Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI

It breaks it down in q & a…which can shed other light on things in a different way.

THE VIRTUES

1. What is a virtue?

1803
1833

A virtue is an habitual and firm disposition to do the good. “The goal of a virtuous life is to become like God” (Saint Gregory of Nyssa). There are human virtues and theological virtues.

1. What are the human virtues?

1804
1810-1811
1834
1839

The human virtues are habitual and stable perfections of the intellect and will that govern our actions, order our passions and guide our conduct according to reason and faith. They are acquired and strengthened by the repetition of morally good acts and they are purified and elevated by divine grace.

1. What are the principal human virtues?

1805
1834

The principal human virtues are called the cardinal virtues, under which all the other virtues are grouped and which are the hinges of a virtuous life. The cardinal virtues are: prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance.

1. What is prudence?

1806
1835

Prudence disposes reason to discern in every circumstance our true good and to choose the right means for achieving it. Prudence guides the other virtues by pointing out their rule and measure.

1. What is justice?

1807
1836

Justice consists in the firm and constant will to give to others their due. Justice toward God is called “the virtue of religion.”

1. What is fortitude?

1808
1837

Fortitude assures firmness in difficulties and constancy in the pursuit of the good. It reaches even to the ability of possibly sacrificing one’s own life for a just cause.

1. What is temperance?

1809
1838

Temperance moderates the attraction of pleasures, assures the mastery of the will over instincts and provides balance in the use of created goods.

1. What are the theological virtues?

1812-1813
1840-1841

The theological virtues have God himself as their origin, motive and direct object. Infused with sanctifying grace, they bestow on one the capacity to live in a relationship with the Trinity. They are the foundation and the energizing force of the Christian’s moral activity and they give life to the human virtues. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being.

1. What are the theological virtues?

1813

The theological virtues are faith, hope, and charity.

1. What is the virtue of faith?

1814-1816
1842

Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and all that he has revealed to us and that the Church proposes for our belief because God is Truth itself. By faith the human person freely commits himself to God. Therefore, the believer seeks to know and do the will of God because “faith works through charity” (Galatians 5:6).

1. What is hope?

1817-1821
1843

Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire and await from God eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit to merit it and to persevere to the end of our earthly life.

1. What is charity?

1822-1829
1844

Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. Jesus makes charity the new commandment, the fullness of the law. “It is the bond of perfection” (Colossians 3:14) and the foundation of the other virtues to which it gives life, inspiration, and order. Without charity “I am nothing” and “I gain nothing” (1 Corinthians 13:1-3).

1. What are the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

1830-1831
1845

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are permanent dispositions which make us docile in following divine inspirations. They are seven: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord.

1. What are the fruits of the Holy Spirit?

1832

The fruits of the Holy Spirit are perfections formed in us as the first fruits of eternal glory. The tradition of the Church lists twelve of them: charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, and chastity (Galatians 5:22-23, Vulgate).

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

They are not “full” explainations of course…

 

[zarthan]

Well…I would suggest honestly just reading it is a rich text…it is not for just Theologians…(though I do count myself as a theologian of sorts……)

The three are infused – by the Holy Spirit–starting normally at Baptism…of the littlest persons…

Ya…lets get rid of words like Trinity…etc…which are not in the Bible…

of course not!..one need not restrict oneself to Biblical terms…

“No, if we are united to Jesus Christ we are united to all that He is, including faith, hope and love.”

oh…there again you go adding a personal interpretation…a “personal theology” to the Scriptures…tisk tisk…to keep with your your own trajectory

sorry such is not there in the Sacred Scriptures…

But yes a Christian is united to Christ…and is given the three theological virtues by the Holy Spirit…

Lets not be “contra-theology” one second and engage personally in it the next

of course all said with charity

I regret as ever having initiated a discussion with you. I am merely stating my convictions based on scripture and my personal feelings regarding the catechism’s wording on ‘the theological virtues of faith, hope and love’. This is not productive for anyone.

We have nothing, and I repeat nothing apart from Jesus Christ. If you do not want to believe that He embodies faith, hope and love, I’ll accept that. May God forgive me for anything that has offended our good and gracious heavenly Father. Despite our differences may the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ prevail.

 

[Bookcat]

I regret as ever having initiated a discussion with you. I am merely stating my convictions based on scripture and my personal feelings regarding the catechism’s wording on ‘the theological virtues of faith, hope and love’. This is not productive for anyone.

We have nothing, and I repeat nothing apart from Jesus Christ. If you do not want to believe that He embodies faith, hope and love, I’ll accept that. May God forgive me for anything that has offended our good and gracious heavenly Father. Despite our differences may the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ prevail.

(…never said one was anything apart from him…but such does not mean he had “Faith”…rather he gives us Faith and perfects it in us by the Holy Spirit)

“apart from me you can do nothing…”

May the grace and love of God be with you.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Catechism:

I. CHRIST - THE UNIQUE WORD OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

101 In order to reveal himself to men, in the condescension of his goodness God speaks to them in human words: "Indeed the words of God, expressed in the words of men, are in every way like human language, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when he took on himself the flesh of human weakness, became like men."63

102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:64
…
…

I love all that! Thankyou!

Returning to the topic of this thread - you have made some good points here, Bookcat, I’ll be looking through this thread again when I have some time. As I said in my first post here, I am very interested in the authorative answer to this question, although my uninformed opinion is that Jesus did have faith.

 

[NotWorthy]

Catechism:

I. CHRIST - THE UNIQUE WORD OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

101 In order to reveal himself to men, in the condescension of his goodness God speaks to them in human words: "Indeed the words of God, expressed in the words of men, are in every way like human language, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when he took on himself the flesh of human weakness, became like men."63

102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:64

You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.65

103 For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord’s Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God’s Word and Christ’s Body.66

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”.67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68

Bookcat, I’ve got to agree with Zarthan on the Scripture issue. What the Catechism says and what is preached from the pulpit are not always the same thing (sadly).

Holy Scripture is one of those topics where the teaching from the priest is lacking, although I do think that this has changed for the better in recent years and I am VERY GLAD to see that!

 

[Bookcat]

Bookcat, I’ve got to agree with Zarthan on the Scripture issue. What the Catechism says and what is preached from the pulpit are not always the same thing (sadly).

Holy Scripture is one of those topics where the teaching from the priest is lacking, although I do think that this has changed for the better in recent years and I am VERY GLAD to see that!

It all depends on the Priest…

just like in everything…persons abilities differ…

 

[NotWorthy]

It all depends on the Priest…

just like in everything…persons abilities differ…

True, but today’s priests seem to reinforce the teaching of Scripture better than they did in the 80’s and 90’s. For instance, how many parish-based bible studies were available 10 and 20 years ago compared to today?